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 Post subject: The Rise
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2008 7:24 pm 
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A teaser snippet from the book (with consent of the authors), setting forth the early condemnation of the Penitent Movement by the Church, and the context.. The book can be obtained from the publisher

Still, when we say “pious Christian” to describe Ferrer, let us note that he himself was not exempt from accusations of heresy. He was “a penitent flagellant” himself, a man who was half monk and half layman, living with his disciples, and whose mysticism was focused by long periods of mortification. He may have been Christian, but in practice, he was exactly like the Manicheans, flagellating himself in the streets. When the weavers and garderners joined him in the street procession in Perpignan, it was largely because they saw in him one of them.

Pope Clement VI, in his bull “Inter Sollicitudines”, dated 19th November 1350, had already spoken out against this flagellant movement as it apparently distressed the clerics. The penitents seemed to be a “reincarnation” of the Cathars, originating as they did from the Cathar regions in Flanders and Central Italy, where they had not been subject to a crusade, but must have realised that reform was necessary in order to survive. Fifty years later, we find them in the South of France, the former heartland of the Cathar religion, near and in Perpignan, with Ferrer at the helm. Under the direction of Ferrer, large processions were organised, and soon, the streets were full of people dressed in the now infamous “cagoules” (hoods with eye holes), flagellating themselves, sometimes to the brink of death (hence the term mortification)… if not actually into that realm.
The issue of flagellation occurred within a larger framework: a Schism within the Church. The Council of Constance (1414-1418) was organised to end the Papal schism which had resulted from the Avignon Papacy, or as it is sometimes known, the "Babylonian Captivity of the Church". In the history of the Roman Catholic Church, the Avignon Papacy was the period from 1309 to 1377 during which seven popes, all French, resided in the French city of Avignon. In 1378, Gregory XI moved the papal residence back to Rome. But due to a dispute over the election of his successor, a faction of cardinals set up an anti-pope back in Avignon.
Although the Council of Constance dismantled the last vestiges of the Avignon papacy, we cannot treat the episode as a one-liner. For one, we note that the foundation of La Sanch occurred in 1416, in the middle of the Council’s existence. In 1415, at about the same time as the Council was in operation, a popular book on how to die, Ars Moriendi (The Art of Dying), was published. It offered advice on the protocols and procedures of a good death and on how to "die well", according to Christian precepts of the late Middle Ages. It was written within the historical context of the effects of the macabre horrors of the Black Death sixty years earlier and the consequent social upheavals of the 15th century. But we should also note that the Cathars were renowned for a specific methodology of dying, with a rite known as the consolamentum, and that the mortifications of the penitent movement was gaining popularity and fame and thus required an admonition from the Pope.

In theory, the Council of Constance was there to mediate, but in practice, to end the Avignon line. Vincent Ferrer was in the Avignon camp, first supporting Clement VII and then Benedict XIII, or Pedro de Luna, a fellow Catalan, who had to flee Avignon and lived in Perpignan at the time. In 1417, the Council, advised by the theologian Jean Gerson, deposed John XXII and the Avignon Pope Benedict XIII, secured the formal resignation of the Roman Pope Gregory XII (who had abdicated in 1415), and elected Pope Martin V, thereby ending the Schism and recognising the line of Roman popes as the legitimate line.
But before this outcome, the Council had also observed that despite such agreements at the top of the church, the heretics might ruin the Church as an entity, preaching, as they were, for a society that had neither a clergy nor priests. Hence, the Council condemned Vincent Ferrer, a condemnation that was no doubt the result of his religious doctrine and his political alliance. On cue, several “scholars" spoke out against what they called “Maniacal” movements, reusing the terms that previous centuries had used against the Manicheans, thus seeding public antipathy against Ferrer and the heretics.
Again it was Jean Gerson who was one of the severest critics of Vincent Ferrer and La Sanch. He was the great theologian of the University of Paris and scandalised by the sect “which infects the Languedoc”. He wrote a discourse to Ferrer, in which he accused him of practicing “cruel rites” as well as “not respecting God’s Law” and also of keeping bad company – which must have implied Pope Benedict XIII, but may have implied others.
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7 Mgr. Leuilleux, Œuvres Complètes (Introduction, textes et notes par Mgr. Glorieux), Paris, Desclée, vol. II (l’œuvre épistolaire), 1960, pp. 200-202; vol. X (l’œuvre polémique), 1973, pp. 46-51.
8 Bernard Duhourceau, « Guide des Pyrénées Mystérieuses », éditions « Tchou ».



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2008 8:51 pm 
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Thanks Roger.

I just wanted to say that I had the opportunity to read an early version of 'The Rise' some time ago - and must say that it is a fantastic read. Very fresh and interesting material. I will be curious to hear what you think.

Well done to 'The Rise' team, and best of luck with the book.

Andrew

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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2008 12:15 am 
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Andy, I think the book is crucial to provide people with a real historic cultural and religious context to the RLC affair. Over time, reading these fora, I get the distinct impression that the vast majority of people don't know the history involved here.

Once the book is circulated, perhaps there will be some discussion of the large amounts of information it provides.


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2008 7:36 am 
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Absolutely in agreement.

...As Roger says.................... "I get the distinct impression that the vast majority of people don't know the history involved here. "

Speaking for myself and a few others on this Forum.....

We want to know.... We want to read..... We want to Learn!....We want to by-pass all the rubbish and jokes that are posted on these pages so that we can have in-depth conversations.


"Once the book is circulated, perhaps there will be some discussion of the large amounts of information it provides."

Yes!

Someone has suggested a User Group for like minded people...is that a possibility? Can we have several?...............Andy are you still there?

Sheila


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 Post subject: The Rise
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2008 7:38 am 
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It's still not available on Amazon....Where and when can we buy it?


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 Post subject: Re: The Rise
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2008 1:05 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
It's still not available on Amazon....Where and when can we buy it?


Sheila, here is the link on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Saunières-Workings-Penitential-Movement/dp/1931882878/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215863247&sr=1-1


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2008 1:14 pm 
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Thank you Roger,

It is available from America, but neither the UK or French Amazon have it in stock yet...only available on pre-order..which I commanded weeks ago.

Goes against the grain but I'll try from them.


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 Post subject: The Rise
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2008 1:18 pm 
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Hi again,

No.....it's not available for another month yet...and in that case I'll wait for amazon.fr.

Unless.....you don't happen to have a copy in any state or condition do you?

Thanks. Sheila


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 Post subject: The Rise
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2008 9:52 am 
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'*'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008 8:45 pm 
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Hello! :arrow:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/newgw/gw_therise_1.htm

On World Mysteries! :!:

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 Post subject: The Rise
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008 9:20 pm 
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Well done guys....excellent stuff.


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PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008 11:07 pm 
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Isaac

Thanks for that, I hope you stay around to debate the significance of your work once we've read it.

John


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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 12:36 am 
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I hope the hard edition spells "practised" correctly.

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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 10:10 am 
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Isaiah 26:19: “Oh, let Your dead revive! Let corpses arise! Awake and shout for joy, You who dwell in the dust!—For Your dew is like the dew on fresh growth; You make the land of the shades come to life.”


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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 12:22 pm 
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Herodotus records that the Babylonians buried their dead in honey and
Alexander the Great was buried/preserved in honey & wax.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 12:32 pm 
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That's why, when your significant other says "honey, do this" or "honey, do that", there is an implied underlying threat?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 1:45 pm 
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Hello all! :!:
I am going to answer some of your questions here:
Yes, I know that my English is far from perfect in this ad for my book “The Rise”. However, it has been corrected in the final version, and therefore, in the paper edition of the book.

Concerning the extracts presented in this web page: :arrow:

These extracts are located at the beginning of the book. I chose these because I wanted to keep the main parts of the book unspoiled for the readers (the ones who intend to buy the paper edition of the book).

This book is divided into three parts: :idea:

- The first part of “The Rise” speaks of Rennes-le-Château’s local history, lays the plot foundations, and puts Bérenger Saunière into the real context of his time. What I think will most entertain the reader, is the fact that even this supposedly “basic”, “rehash” part of the book contains elements about the Rennes-le-Château mystery that were never revealed publicly before. This means that the very “minimum”, basic elements necessary to comprehend this case were either not fully known, or were never written in any book other than this one. The extracts presented here stem from this area.

- The second part of “The Rise” consists of a very technical and interesting report about the creation of the real Priory of Sion (i.e. the order of the Penitents), about the secret religious and political networks dwelling in Europe, and about “the great secret of the Catholic Church”. No, this secret has nothing to do with the “tomb of Christ”, but rather with the Catholic Church’s secret history, i.e. the history of a church that has been devoured from within by a cult, a sect who replaced Christianity with Babylonian rites. I consider this particular part of the book as the most interesting one, because its style and substance are very scientific, and all people can relate to it, even people who are not interested in the Rennes-le-Château mystery at all.

- The third part of the “The Rise” is truly extraordinary for those who are interested in Bérenger Saunière. It is bound to trigger uproar, since it features documents that have never been shown publicly, documents establishing proof of the presence of a Cult of the Dead in Rennes-le-Château and within the Hautpoul family. This part of the book describes what the real life of Bérenger Saunière was like, and provides extracts from letters and archives that explain exactly how Bérenger earned his money.

:wink:

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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 2:15 pm 
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Thanks for the preview, Isaac. All three strands you've outlined above sound absolutely fascinating. I can't wait to read it.

Roll on 8th October!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 7:59 pm 
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" "


Last edited by jakeabf on 02 Nov 2008 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: why is his mention of necrophilia credible?
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 9:16 pm 
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jakeabf wrote:
I brought up the necrophilia concept when Sauniere + Marie were rummaging around in the cemetery. I was given a brush off on that one, then along comes a book peddler who mentions the same thing and gets credibility, why?


Because it's not the same thing, as you well know. The "cult of the dead" is one thing, necrophilia is "making love to an Englishwoman" (or so the old joke goes, anyway).

jakeabf wrote:
I will wait and see how the comments roll in about the Rise text and see how it jibes with what Richard Dietrich has already written on his RLC 'Theme Park' website. If I see no essential difference 'tween the Rise + what Dietrich has already put out I will take it that the Rise is just another quick buck hustle.


Who the Hell is Richard Dietrich anyway? The Rise is a well researched and serious book, I can assure you. Most unusual for the whole RLC milieu.

jakeabf wrote:
If the original PoS were Crusaders + their sponsors who conquer the Holy Land in a rather brutal way, I see no connection with these marauders and a gentle penitent sect. I see a Dan Brown-like spin agenda unwinding here.


What crusaders? Where do you get this nonsense? What do you call a "gentle penitent sect"? Where can I get a bottle like the one you're drinking from this evening? (Is it even legal?)

jakeabf wrote:
In a e-mail to me Dietrich hinted the modern La Sanch movement is not all that kosher, it ain't zakly what it portends to be, so has Ike b jacob tackled this anomaly as well, if at all?


Yes, they tackled it, at length. You'll be surprised by what you learn. And no, La Sanch ain't 'zackly "kosher"... It's nowhere near as bad as it was before, however... So much for the "modern" penitent movement.

jakeabf wrote:
Is Ike b jacob gonna show pictures of a Sauniere strap-on torture instrument, ala Dan Brown's take on Opus Dei? This stuff reeks of Bloodline hype and let the chips fall where they may.


jake


I don't think there will be pictures of "strap on torture instruments" but their use by penitents, Jesuits, Opus Dei and other "orders" will be mentioned and discussed.

I don't know what's come over you, but you'd best wait for the book before making up things to dislike about it. Unless, of course, you can point to anything egregiously false in those excerpts?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008 10:12 pm 
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Last edited by jakeabf on 02 Nov 2008 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2008 4:40 pm 
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Hi Jake,

I am responding to your message just before I leave. (I will be off until September 23rd.)

Just before I talk about my book, I have to say that when I read your message, I saw a little bit of confusion about some historic / religious notions.

It is absolutely normal, because the history of the Middle-Ages in Europe is very badly documented. There are only precious few serious books and studies about it, and a LOT of university professors usually make mistakes about it, because they don't check their sources enough.

It is difficult for me to tell you about my book "The Rise" if I don't give you the proper definitions of what is a "penitent", a Crusader, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the German Empire, the Cathari, the Investiture Controversy, simony, cult of the dead, Mendicant Orders, etc, etc.

I don't say this to belittle your own knowledge, but to show you that if you don't know the sect of the Penitents well, you also don't seem to know what a Cathar is.

What I mean, roughly, is that all these things, and more, are well explained in my book, in a chronological order.

And I would find it hard to explain all this on the forum, because not only would it mean putting the whole book on the forum, but also telling the most part of Europe's history.

That being said, you will find some food for thought below:

You seem to believe that the sect of the Penitents is only a tiny, local sect.
Nothing could be further from the truth. It is actually a gigantic European sect, which originated many centuries ago in Chaldea, and later established itself in Bulgaria, before coming to Europe.
This sect HAS founded empires and destroyed kingdoms.
I advise you to read Voltaire's writings, since they are quite revealing in this regard.

As regards the Cathari, you will likely be very surprised by my book, yet I prefer not to delve into this matter since it could lead us in too long a debate for this forum.

Don't forget that the real sources of documentation about the Cathars are manuscripts that were preserved in the North of Italy, and not at all in France. This is a key point.

See you on September 23rd.

Isaac.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2008 4:54 pm 
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Just setting things straight for Jake here:

It is NOT a good idea to get caught in the "conspiracy theory" concept.

"The Rise" is a scientific book, therefore, it has no need for any kind of conspiracy or "plot" to exist.

Roger and I are two different people. Roger is a friend of mine, who helped me a great deal with the translation process of this book.
He also is an adviser for me, because he is very clever, and thinks well and fast.

You seem to think that my book "The Rise" looks like the Da Vinci Code, but it actually is the very opposite of a Dan Brown-like novel.

And my publisher is not Random House.

I don't know why you sound worried about the release of my book.

That was the last message before I come back on September 23rd.

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 Post subject: how's this for starters? Ike
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2008 11:50 pm 
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Taking yer hints I found these links which I take to be what yer book is about, strangely 'nuff a lot of Gnostic based Protestant sect stuff is coursing thruout the whole period.

I predict when the dust settles, folk on the forum will say, huh ... just another gnostic screed manifesto in hyped up form. But 1st the links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostics
http://www.bookrags.com/notes/can/OBJ.htm
http://www.assyriatimes.com/engine/modu ... oryid=3192
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Boniface_IX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Penitents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant ... tral_Italy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beghards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonfalone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudesi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciscans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraticelli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Capistran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuati
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taborites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_of_the_Brethren
http://www.allempires.com/article/index ... #section_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_of_Cesena
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendicant_order
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervishes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bektashi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senussi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulicianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Giants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoptionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metempsychosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Catholics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Brethren
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novatianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthusian

there is where it gets interesting 'cuz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosian_Rite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallican_Rite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Rite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_liturgical_rites

where is Sauniere's rite?


Last edited by jakeabf on 02 Nov 2008 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2008 2:19 am 
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Quote:
Gnostic based Protestant sect stuff


I know you're not stupid, so I'll just assume you're taking the piss.

:lol:


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