Arcadia Discussion Zone

Have been doing some background reading about the monarchy, the area of the old Razes and Northern Spain - and its history etc. I was wondering about people's ideas about Sauniere and his support for the Monarchy .....if he was a royalist - why? Is there more to it than just being a Catholic priest?

Why would Sauniere preach from the pulpit anti - republican speeches? Why would he - as a Catholic priest - be interested in whether the Society he lived in was ruled by a Monarch, or ruled by a government elected by the 'people'?

What difference would it have made to him?

Forgive me if my understanding of this topic is very slim, but it does seem to me that the whole issue rests on various families, most notably in the northern territories of Spain and perhaps southern france .... and that the history of these places may support a good theory as to Sauniere's activities?

Please discuss

Sandy - I can't offer much aside from some general throughts, but wouldn't Sauniere's fierce anti-republicanism have merely stemmed from the anti-clericalism of the Third Republic in the latter part of the nineteenth century, as the Republicans edged out the Legitimists to become the dominant force, and this might have been seen by some as being threatening to the Church. Sauniere was one of four priests in the area to be suspended from their duties for anti-republican agitation, including Delmas in Alet-les-Bains.

The monarchism of Sauniere specifically could also have been influenced by his father having been Steward to the Marquis de Cazemajou, perhaps?

Tim could probably do a lot of justice to this particular topic.

Hi Richard,

The answer seems to lie within this sentence:

" The French clergy and bishops were closely associated with the Monarchists and many of its hierarchy were from noble families. Republicans were based in the anticlerical middle class who saw the Church's alliance with the monarchists as a political threat to republicanism, and a threat to the modern spirit of progress".

The monarchism of Sauniere specifically could also have been influenced by his father having been Steward to the Marquis de Cazemajou, perhaps?

Why?

I'm just speculating. Just wondering if his father's position working for the nobility might have rubbed off on his son in some way, if it might have inculcated a stronger than normal sense of devotion to the monarchy, even for a traditionalist priest. But it was just speculation.

The Republicans detested the church for its political and class affiliations; for them, the church represented the Ancien Regime, a time in French history most Republicans hoped was long behind them. The Republicans were strengthened by Protestant and Jewish support. Numerous laws were passed to weaken the Catholic Church. In 1879, priests were excluded from the administrative committees of hospitals and of boards of charity; in 1880, new measures were directed against the religious congregations; from 1880 to 1890 came the substitution of lay women for nuns in many hospitals; and, in 1882 and Ferry school laws were passed. Napoleon's Concordat continued in operation but in 1881, the government cut off salaries to priests it disliked.

Sandy, PS has a pretty good article about this on his site.....

http://www.rennes-le-chateau-rhedae.com ... ublic.html

Thanks Tingra.

The funny thing is - reading it kind of reminds me of, say, the Reformation in England, or perhaps the way Henry VIIIth got rid of the influence of the Catholic Church in England.

Its very interesting to read about the fears of people regarding the 'influence' of the Catholic Church in France.

However noble it is about a Monarchy - people dont want to be controlled by it, or a religious institution. I read with interest peoples fears about the religious hierarchy controlling schools and education and therefore a fear that indoctrination was going on.

It again reminded me of a Charles Dickens novel, who likened the way religion was indoctrinated in our schools as (i believe he called it) - 'the massacre of the innocents'. I never forgot that.

We have a Monarchy in England, and although i have some respect for the Queen and what she has done and how she has really given up her life for England as it were, and i kinda like the way her grandsons William and Harry have turned out - they still have no right to lord it over us ..... which i suppose is what the so called peasants of France thought the church and nobility were doing in Sauniere's time.

Its interesting to speculate whether any of this influenced Sauniere and his activities at Rennes-le-Chateau.
I doubt it.

You know - the more i think about it - i am reminded of a quote Chaumeil made. He said the Tisseyre document was an invention made to 'cover a traffic in relics which was set up by Berenger Sauniere'.

We know these families in the northern spain area, and perhaps southern France, held lots of 'relics'. I mean really important relics.

Saussez once told me that the Habsburgs were a family dedicated to collecting religious relics.

Its a bit bizarre - the statement of a 'traffic in relics'. Was Sauniere finding relics and passing them on? Or was he a middle man for relics trading?

And what sort of relics?????

Quite bizarre.

But i can certainly see why various European families, with the pedigree they have - would be looking for relics. I can also see why they might have the knowledge of relics.

The specifics i am thinking of go right back to Visigothic times and even further back to settlement of Roman legions in these areas.

But i do wonder if what happened 1500 - 2000 years ago would have any bearing on our modern times??

And one more thing Tingra .... apparently during the Third Republic:

"The Combes government worked with Masonic lodges to create a secret surveillance of all army officers to make sure that devout Catholics would not be promoted. Exposed as the Affaire Des Fiches, the scandal undermined support for the Combes government and he resigned It also undermined morale in the army, as officers realized that hostile spies examining their private lives were more important to their careers than their own professional accomplishments".

No wonder the Catholic church was paranoid about Freemasons and the occult.


L'Affaire des Fiches de délation (“affair of the cards of denunciation”) was a political scandal in France in 1904-1905 in which it was discovered that the militantly anticlerical War Minister under Emile Combes, General Louis André, was determining promotions based on religious behavior. Using members of the Freemasons to watch officers, André assembled a huge card index on public officials, detailing which were Catholic and who attended Mass, with a view to preventing their promotions. Both Combes and André were Freemasons, and much of the information had been collected by the Masonic Grand Orient de France.

aka...."L'Affaire des casseroles"...or "shop your neighbour" as you would call it today....but to understand the implications of the time you would need to delve into the Dreyfus affaire.

One might want to consider an event called Le Schisme Sévillan and familiarize one's self with Pope Leo's 1892 encyclical Inter innumeras sollicitudines.

In a nutshell, Pope Leo suggested that the French rightists embrace the republican form of government and stop deepening the rift between church and state. He also "persuaded" the Légitimiste claimant, the titular "Charles IX of France" and "Carlos VII of Spain", to cease pressing his rights to the headship of the French royal house (which suited him well enough, he always saw himself as King of Spain first and foremost), thus causing the rupture of his political network on the ground in France.

What happened after Don Carlos' principal representative in France got cut loose on the orders of the Pope himself (after snarky comments directed at the Sovereign Pontiff hit their mark) is little-known to most historians, but offers an interesting insight into the evolution of the monarchist movement "on the border"...

TCP

The Pyrenean border region had always been a stronghold of monarchism, particularly of the ultra-conservative Legitimist strain. Look at Louis de Coma's family - they were among the regions strongest supporters of Legitimism. Saunière's politics, priest or not, were more likely affected by his native region than his vocation.



Because the Republic was putting the screws to the Church - as it had done in 1789, and in 1830, and in 1848, and again in the 1880s. Clericalism and absolutism went hand-in-hand, a collaboration designed to limit the rights of citizens and keep them subservient.



I think your understanding is better than you might give yourself credit for.

TCP

Cute. I'll take that as snark unless informed otherwise.

TCP

Not cute: Cut loose:
What happened after Don Carlos' principal representative in France got cut loose ... ?

Look at the sorts or relics the Habsburgs already had and could afford. I rather doubt (just a hunch on my part) that Saunière could've laid his hands on the sort of first-class relics that would've interested a Habsburg, at least not a steady supply of them.

TCP

He recruited another Spanish Bourbon prince to step up and declare himself the rightful King of France, then went looking for Legitimists who didn't want to see their cause shrivel up and die. And, he went on the hunt for money.

TCP

I can tell you there is evidence of a underground group who protected and transported relics
the documentation I have seen is that coming from France transported to America for safe keeping
the people involved had to be trusted and I'm not sure Sauniere was trustworthy

if he was part of the chain then my guess is he betrayed it

You talk about his support of the Royals
They had the money not the peasants
The government had no intention of giving him money and his Bishop barely gave him any

the richest hand was the Wealthy Royals

Wait, wait - don't tell me - Cajuns, right?

I'll tell you a secret, Lov - the gentleman I wrote of, an actual prince in fact but poor as a churchmouse, had an American bride of impeccable social standing who came from...

Wait for it...

New Orleans!

AND - the replacement royal prince he put up as the rightful King of France had a son who eventually became Grand Master of the Order of...

Wait for it...

Saint Lazarus!

TCP

i always wondered if one "boulanger" could in fact be hiding another larger "Boulanger".... the one born in the northern Rennes, he had the backing of his direct superior, Henri d'Orléans, duc d'Aumale and was the candidate the bonapartistes and monarchistes who hoped to use him in their fight to topple the Republic and i suppose for the people of France he epitomised the desire for revenge against Imperial Germany.



“The clergy intervened more openly in the elections than in previous ones, taking a stand against the Republicans, who had just passed the law establishing 3 years military service and obliging seminarists, like students and future members of the teaching profession, to serve for a year. The military law and the educational laws were from then on the Catholics’ great subject of protest”

not forgetting that Msg Billard was an active yet discreet anti-Republicanist.

La Semaine Religieuse de Carcassonne printed an article before the elections of 1885 that said... “The victory is not yet complete. The ballot poll, fixed at Sunday October 18, must ensure our triumph or deliver us yet to the keen enemies of the Religion and Fatherland. The moment is thus solemn and it is necessary to employ all our forces against our adversaries. That is our great concern.... Yes, let us act, pray, amend ourselves, make penitence; and perhaps we will obtain that this day of October 18, becomes for us a day of delivery”

Saunière became one of the "curés volés avec complicité PAR le Conseil d'Etat"..et mis en situation d'une retraite tôt, pour un "conduit indesirable".

"Noms des curés volé"

Nous rectifions et complétons la liste des curés volés avec complicité du Conseil d'Etat qui a rendu autrefois un arrêt dont on se sert, arrêt basé comme on sait sur un faux texte du Concordat, pré
senté par erreur au nom du ministère.

Voici les nobles victimes qui sont l'avant-garde de la persécution sanglante qui mûrit

Diocèse de Carcassonne MM! Gaubil, curé de Lasscrrc. Bességuier, curé de Sobastide d'Aujou.
Tailhan, curé de Roullcns. Jean, curé de Bourriège. Saunière, curé de Rennes-le-Château. Delmas, vicaire d'Alet.

Diocèse de Luçon. Nouvelles victimes de la spoliation MM. Gautreau, curé do Bois Lèné. Bouzin,
curé de St-Philbcrt. Rcyneau, curé de Nesmy.Diocèse d'Agen. Mltf. Jacomy, curé de Gon-
Itaud. Labbé, curé de Savignac de Duras. Menidiry curé de Monségur. Lavergne, curé de
Sauvetcrre-de-Fumel. Berbié, curé d'Esclottes.Cluzan. curé de Mézin. Bonnis, curé de Houeillès.
Fauché. curé de Bruch. Laffite, curé de Saint-Martin-de-Curton.

Ces prêtres recevront par faveur l'indemnité de décembre et ne seront volés qu'au jour des étrennes. le l°r janvier, à moins que Mgr d'Agen ne les
punisse d'avoir rempli leur devoir et n'approuve les rapports calomnieux des premiers venus et d'anonymes en les chassant lui-même de leur presbytère, Alors leurs successeurs seront payés."

please excuse spelling it's taken from an old copy of La Croix.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulangisme

you probably don't understand what i'm on about, but when i studied the carnets a couple of years back i could never figure out why Saunière gave such huge amounts of money to the boulanger...i would have expected that, like every large household in the area they would have baked their own bread in their own four à pain ? ...Vast amounts were spent on "bread" each year by the Saunière/Dénarnaud household...so maybe the money wasn't to the boulanger that made bread, but were maybe donations to the other Boulanger ?

Probably a ridiculous idea, but hey !

I did think that but felt there would have to be quite a few people involved and generally the more people that are involved the more information about it there would be

hmm making "bread"

Yes, but wouldn't that particular English colloquianism for money translate in French not as "pain" (bread) but as blé, a word for corn, as per the supposed clue in the text beneath the flowery mound tableau in RLC church?