Spartacus Paraclete wrote:
Spartacus Paraclete wrote:
Notice that Roscoe claims that the above idiocy is an 'extract' from the supposed 'Three World Wars' letter supposedly sent in 1871. Because of the absurdity of the claim that this is a genuine quote from a letter supposedly written in 1871, Roscoe tries to explain away the obvious flaws with the gibberish in his 'Note' addendum. However, the 'out of period' terms need not be explained with Roscoe's gibberish, because they were terms used by William Guy Carr in 1958, and are therefore not 'out of period'. In other words Roscoe, unknowingly, is quoting Carr, not Pike, so no need for the 'Note' addendum gibberish. If he had done any real research this would be obvious! What Carr actually wrote was:
Roscoe, for feck sake, will you actually read what I posted? The 'Three World Wars' claim is from Carr
. I just provided proof! Can you show any proof that the claim existed prior to Carr, which is the key issue?
I posted a detailed rebuttal to your claim. The burden is on you now to show me that I have misunderstood the sequence of conspiratorial evolution. If I have, show me...
Taxil made no 'Three Wars' claim, as far as I can see, so claiming that he retracted blah, blah because he was afraid for his life has absolutely no relevance at all to your original research fail!
Carr died in 1959. Long before any Arab/Israeli conflict. Soviet Russia was the big threat, but he never mentioned a Communism conflict for world war three.
They invented those terms themselves.
Epic fail after epic fail...
On 14 May 1948, the day the Mandate officially ended and the day before the bulk of the remaining British troops departed, Israel declared its independence and sovereignty, though without specifying borders. The next day, the Arab League reiterated officially their opposition to the "two-state solution" in a letter to the UN. That day, the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq invaded the territory partitioned for the Arab state, marking the beginning of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The nascent Israeli Defense Force repulsed the Arab League nations from part of the occupied territories, thus extending its borders beyond the original UNSCOP partition. By December 1948, Israel controlled most of the portion of Mandate Palestine west of the Jordan River. The remainder of the Mandate consisted of Jordan, the area that came to be called the West Bank (controlled by Jordan), and the Gaza Strip (controlled by Egypt). Prior to and during this conflict, 713,000 Palestinian Arabs fled their original lands to become Palestinian refugees, in part, due to an alleged promise from Arab leaders that they would be able to return when the war had been won. Many Palestinians fled from the areas that are now present-day Israel as a response to alleged massacres of Arab towns by militant Jewish organizations like the Irgun and the Stern Gang. The War came to an end with the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and each of its Arab neighbours.
Before the adoption by the United Nations of Resolution 181 in November 1947 and the declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948, several Arab countries adopted discriminatory measures against their local Jewish populations. The status of Jewish citizens in Arab states worsened dramatically during the 1948 Israeli-Arab conflict. Major anti-Jewish riots erupted throughout the Arab World in December 1947, and Jewish communities were hit particularly hard in Syria and Aden, with hundreds of dead and injured. By mid-1948, almost all Jewish communities in Arab states had suffered attacks and their status deteriorated. Jews under Islamic regimes were uprooted from their longtime residency or became political hostages of the Arab–Israeli conflict. As a result, a large number of Jews fled or were forced to emigrate from Arab countries and other Muslim countries as well. Anti-Jewish violence and persecution initiated the first waves of exodus, with many following. In Libya, Jews were deprived of citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized. Egypt expelled most of its Jewish community in 1956... The majority were fleeing due to worsening political conditions, although some emigrated for ideological reasons.
Over 700,000 Jews emigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1952, with approximately 285,000 of them from Arab countries...
In 1956, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, in contravention of the Constantinople Convention of 1888. Many argued that this was also a violation of the 1949 Armistice Agreements. On July 26, 1956, Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal Company, and closed the canal to Israeli shipping.
Israel responded on October 29, 1956, by invading the Sinai Peninsula with British and French support. During the Suez Canal Crisis, Israel captured the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula...
Could Carr have read the papers when he was writing his Pike crap? As the book was published in 1958, we can assume it was written sometime in the years previous to that year. How about this, he wrote his Pike crap in 1956 and/or 1957 exactly when all of the above was happening, and when people of frightened and nervous disposition were fearful that these events would kick off World War III?
What a pathetic rebuttal. If that's the best you can do then I should give up if I was you.
The pathetic rebuttal is all you, Roscoe, and any lucid person reading this exchange can see that clearly. You are completely clueless.
"Anyone who starts a statement with the word 'apparently' should be lined up against a wall and shot" - Steven Fry.
IMHO Fry is entitled to hold that opinion, and I absolutely defend his right to it, no matter how idiotic it is...
No you can see what's going on here. It has to be a hoax because if it isn't then these prats don't have the moral fortitude to deal with it.
No, you can see what's going on here. The 'Three Wars Letter' is a hoax. And you don't have the moral fortitude to deal with it because you would have to hold up your hands and say 'I am a prat'...
Albert Pike to Mazzini, August 15, 1871: Three World Wars?
Or, how Michael Haupt said, that William Guy Carr said, that Cardinal Caro y Rodriguez of Santiago, Chile said, that The Cause of World Unrest said, that the confessed hoaxer Gabriel Jogand-Pagès aka Dr. Bataille aka Leo Taxil said about Albert Pike and Giuseppe Mazzini in Le diable au XIXe siècle, v. II, 1894, p. 605 (but actually pp. 594-606).
Michael Haupt said that Carr made it up in 2003 on his website. Just before the Iraq War.
Now lets just look at the World War Three prediction from Haupt
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
Despite Russian nuclear weapons threatening the west not a single mention of conflict with the Soviet Union by (according to Haupt) Carr.
Now it seems that Haupt altered what Carr supposedly said in his 1958 reprint.
Carr actually said:
Photocopy of Carr's book.
You will notice that Carr has not mentioned the word Illuminati. Whereas Haupt has.
Slight oversight don't you think?
It is also fundamentally shorter.
By the way I will at this point state that it was you who brought up William Guy Carr. I didn't.
I'm more of the straight from the horses mouth
However Carr revealed his source:
Pike explained what is intended to happen in a letter he wrote to his director (Mazzini) of the W.R.M. August 15, 1871. This letter is quoted elsewhere. It is catalogued in the Library of the British Museum, London, England  and has been quoted from and referred to by dozens of authorities and students of the W.R.M., including Cardinal Rodriguez of Chile. (See page 118 of The Mysteries of Freemasonry Unveiled, 1925. English translation, 1957.)
Notice he only says INCLUDING Cardinal Rodriguez of Chile.
The Keeper of manuscripts recently informed the author that this letter is NOT catalogued in the British Museum Library. It seems strange that a man of Cardinal Rodriguez’s knowledge should have said it WAS in 1925.
- William Guy Carr, Satan: Prince of this World
On inspection of Rodriguez's book he mention NOTHING about three world wars.
we have this from - The Cause of World Unrest: by H. A. Gwynne ,
In the year 1896 there appeared in Paris a curious publication called Le Diable au XIXe Siècle. It was an attack upon Freemasonry, and came out in parts, illustrated with grotesque and repulsive engravings. The name on the title-page is Dr. Bataille, but it is stated in the British Museum Catalogue that the real authors were Gabriel Jogand-Pagès and Charles Hacks. The book, with evident knowledge and a show of authority, set out to trace the connection between Freemasonry and revolutions, but its sensationalism and the extremely doubtful character of some of the documents produced brought it into disrepute. It is now forgotten, and yet it contains a good deal that can be verified from other sources, and some things also which seem to be verified by recent events. In particular there is a letter - or an alleged letter - said to have been written by Albert Pike, the "Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry," assisted by the Ten Ancients of the Grand Lodge of the Supreme Orient at Charleston, to "the very illustrious brother" Giuseppe Mazzini. This letter is dated August 15, 1871, and sets forth an anti-clerical policy which Mazzini is to follow in Italy. The measures proposed, including secular education, the expulsion of the religious orders, and so forth, need not detain us. What is to our purpose occurs towards the end of the letter, on page 605 (vol. ii.). The writer explains that owing to the working out of this policy the Pope may be driven at some future time out of Italy, and that established religion will then find its last refuge in Russia. And the letter proceeds:
“That is why, when the autocratic Empire of Russia will have become the citadel of Papal Christianity (adonaïsme papiste), we shall unchain the revolutionary Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm, which will demonstrate clearly to the nations, in all its horror, the effect of absolute unbelief, mother of savagery and of the most bloody disorder. Then, everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the mad minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate these destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned of Christianity, whose deist soul will up to that moment be without compass, thirsting for an ideal, but not knowing where to bestow their worship, will receive the True Light, by the universal manifestation of the pure Luciferian doctrine, at last made public, a manifestation which will arise from the general movement of reaction following the destruction of Atheism and Christianity, both at the same time vanquished and exterminated.”
Gabriel Jogand-Pagès is of course Leo Taxil. The year is 1896.
So this letter is at least as old as 1896 (if it is a forgery) and if it is genuine, it is as old as 1871(when Pike wrote to Mazzini). It must therefore be considered remarkable, whether as a forgery or as a genuine document. For it predicts what actually did happen in Russia, and it claims for its authors that they were preparing to bring about what we know has happened.
So it ain't from Carr and it ain't from Rodriguez the prediction being at least from 1896.
Now it MIGHT have come from Gabriel Jogand-Pagès aka Dr. Bataille aka Leo Taxil.
And yes Taxil did say the following:
"The public made me what I am; the arch-liar of the period, for when I first commenced to write against the Masons my object was amusement pure and simple. The crimes I laid at their door were so grotesque, so impossible, so widely exaggerated, I thought everybody would see the joke and give me credit for originating a new line of humor. But my readers wouldn't have it so; they accepted my fables as gospel truth, and the more I lied for the purpose of showing that I lied, the more convinced became they that I was a paragon of veracity.
Then it dawned upon me that there was lots of money in being a Munchausen of the right kind, and for twelve years I gave it to them hot and strong, but never too hot. When inditing such slush as the story of the devil snake who wrote prophecies on Diana's back with the end of his tail, I sometimes said to myself: 'Hold on, you are going too far,' but I didn't. My readers even took kindly to the yarn of the devil who, in order to marry a Mason, transformed himself into a crocodile, and, despite the masquerade, played the piano wonderfully well."
One day when lecturing at Lille, I told my audience that I had just had an apparition of Nautilus, the most daring affront on human credulity I had so far risked. But my hearers never turned a hair. 'Hear ye, the doctor has seen Nautilus,' they said with admiring glances. Of course no one had a clear idea of who Nautilus was I didn't myself but they assumed that he was a devil. Ah, the jolly evenings I spent with my fellow authors hatching out new plots, new, unheard of perversions of truth and logic, each trying to outdo the other in organized mystification. I thought I would kill myself laughing at some of the things proposed, but everything went; there is no limit to human stupidity."
Can I just state that it is the Establishment
British Museum Catalogue who said that Dr Bataille was Gabriel Jogand-Pagès aka Leo Taxil. One of course wonders how they knew because Taxil didn't say so.
However, we are now back to 1896, Doinel, Saunière and what it is that can be used to make people part with their cash to rebuild Rennes le Chateau.
So that's all solved then?
Taxil spoke of Palladism, well so did Edith Starr Miller and she got her information from Adriano Lemmi who was the successor to both Mazzini and Pike. She does several chapters on this but I'm not going to repeat them on here because I regard it as pearls before swine.
If you want then go read.