Arcadia Discussion Zone

This is research. Do you have the title, roscoe?

The circular observation tower of Hodnet Church furnished by Thomas Wright



Inside. Same theme as Sauniere

Hawkstone Manor - 7 mins in

So what does

BERGERE PAS DE TENTATION

mean then?

You've got the wrong painting darlin'. It's this one:



So tell me why there is copy of this very painting at Shugborough Hall as well as the famous Shepherdess monument. This being the former home of an Admiral famous for his NAVIGATION skills. Interestingly the Teniers painting can be found in Shugborough Hall but has the odd title of Elisah and Elijah fed by Ravens

The symbol for the transcendental number for the ratio of a circle’s circumference to its diameter has not always been ‘π’ (pi) the 17th letter of the Greek alphabet, this did not occur until 1706 when it simply appeared from nowhere in a book by William Jones called ‘Synopsis palmariorum matheseos’. In the book Jones uses π for other expressions also so his choosing appears to have been arbitrary. William Jones was a personal tutor to George Parker who was the cousin of Thomas Anson, Fellow of the Royal Society and also George Anson the Earl of Lichfield who was the famous navigator and the husband of Elizabeth Yorke (Lady Anson).Thomas Anson had also been the founding member of the [Dilettanti Society along with the Earl of Sandwich and Francis Dashwood and together they sponsored the study of ancient Greek and Roman art and the creation of new work in the style. Thomas Anson had also visited Versailles whilst building work at Shugborough was going on.

With regard to the Shugborough Monument it is Thomas Wright who is the most significant here. Wright was an astronomer and was born at Byers Green County Durham in 1711, the son of a carpenter. These seemingly humble beginnings culminated in the study of Euclidean mathematics and astronomy and it was he who wrote “An original theory or new hypothesis of the universe” where he explains that the Milky Way is caused by our edge on view of our galaxy an idea that was taken up by Immanuel Kant. He has been described as the precursor to Sir William Herschel and supported Newton and Halley in the new theory of comets; it was Wright who spawned the word Nebulae to describe groups of stars. He set up his own school at Sunderland where he taught mathematics and navigation, he later moved to London to work on a number of projects for wealthy patrons including the Duchess of Kent, to whom he taught geometry and surveying. He was even invited by the Czaritsa Elizabeth to become Professor of Navigation at the Imperial Acadamy in Petersburg. During this period Wright was instrumental in designing many gardens and country houses but significantly he designed and built the Astronomical observatory tower known as Wright’s Folly close to his birthplace at Westerton, County Durham. However it is at Shugborough Hall, close to Lichfield, Staffordshire in England and at nearby Hodnet Church that Thomas Wright was particularly active. It can be confidently stated that Wright worked at Shugborough from 1748 – 1749 and was active in laying out the grounds and adding a library and dining room (formally the drawing room) for the soon to be wed George Anson and Elizabeth Yorke.

In 1763 in letters to her brother Philip Yorke, Lady Anson speaks of the Shepherdess monument, some fourteen years after Wright is known to have been there. Wright had been a personal tutor to Philip Yorke’s wife (Lady Anson’s Sister in Law) and the Yorkes lived at Wrest Park in Bedfordshire where Wright built a Mithraic Altar and Root House (for Mithraic Priests), it is important to state that this altar also carries a cryptic message written in some kind of ancient cuneiform which is translated into Latin on the other side.

Wright was in no doubt that the earth was nothing more than another planet in a giant collection of other stars and planets however he did have theories on the transmigration of the soul which was a theological doctrine that taught that the soul, after death, would inhabit a succession of other worlds, becoming progressively more prefect. Wright is particularly famous for building Follies in the gardens of English stately homes and wrote a book in 1755 describing designs for arbours and grottos which he called “Universal Architecture”.

The shepherdess frieze itself was carved by the Dutch sculpturer Scheemaker but it is likely that he never saw the real painting but modelled his sculpture from a reversed print possibly copied by Lady Anson from Poussin’s Les Bergere d’Arcadie from Chatsworth. However the surrounding arch is generally thought to have been built by Wright.

Wright’s ideas of the universe appear to stem from 18th century ideas of the Druid religion. In one of Wright’s earliest books he wrote in 1734 called “Elements of Existence” he imagined the universe as three great spheres where the middle sphere he calls “The Sphere of Felicity” where life is happy and balanced and in 18th century Druidism there is “The Circle of Felicity” Both ideas are from the 16th century mystic Jacob Boehme who influenced many 18th century philosophers in the philosophical clubs of London in Wright’s day.

The Martinist Movement which was started by Papus which is based on the teachings of the French mystic and philosopher Louis Claude de Saint Martin (1743 – 1803) who took his lead from his mentor Martines de Pasqually. Pasqually had in turn taken his philosophy from Jacob Boehme and Louis Claude Saint-Martin called Boehme his ‘second’ master. In “Elements of Existence” Wright also appears to have been greatly influenced by the mid 17th century Rosicrucian writer Robert Fludd whom Wright directly quotes in a later publication called “Second Thoughts”.

Wright also wrote another strange book and the front cover it says:

THE SHEPHERD’S SONGS TO GUIDE THE WAY,
THE HORN WAS BLOWN,
THE TREASURE LAY

On the back page it says:

“If my readers should at any time remark that I am particularly dull, they may be assured there is a design under it – British"

The Shepherdess monument we know was copied over several weeks by George Anson's wife Elizabeth Anson from a collection of the Duke of Devonshire's collection at Chatsworth House. Elizabeth Yorke, who once had a painting made of herself dressed as a shepherdess. She having spent some time before her marriage in France around Lyon. In Elizabeth Yorke's collection . Her portrait was painted by Vanderbank before her marriage and she is dressed as a shepherdess. Another picture can be seen at Shugborough holding a copy of the Shepherds of Arcadia by Poussin. The Anson’s library contains works from Virgil, Ovid, Sannazaro, Sir Philip Sidney and Spenser, all authors who used Shepherds in Arcadia as a theme in their writings. One literary work which directly alluded to in Lady Anson’s letters is “L’Astree” by Honore D’Urfe. She had five volumes of the 1617 edition of Astree and these are still in the library at Shugborough. L’Astree is the French equivalent of Sidney’s Arcadia but the idealised setting is in France not Greece it is also mixed with Protestant propaganda. In this version the Shepherdess is Astree named after the Goddess of Justice who is called Astrea by Virgil and Ovid. Astrea is the Virgin daughter of Zeus and Themis and is likened to the constellation of Virgo and is the Goddess of Justice because of the close proximity of the scales of Libra, she is depicted on top of the Old Bailey in London, the British Law Court. In the French version of l’Astree the shepherds and Shepherdess live on the banks of the river Lignon just west of Lyon. Interestingly this story features a Druid called Adamas and this appears to be the very first occasion in literature where the Druids are mentioned. The story also includes Meroveus the principle king of the Merovingian dynasty. Madam Helena Blavatsky also identifies Astrea as the constellation of Virgo in her Theosophical Glossary.

Lady Anson’s letters are possibly one of the keys to this mystery. In a letter to Thomas Anson on September 20th 1750 she speaks of the “Gentil Berger” and she remembers that since she left “les delectables rives de votre belle Lignon” (delectable banks of the beautiful Lignon) she has never ceased remembering the happy moments among the “ces Vallons Fleuis, ces Collines ombrageuzes, ces Eux claires et andoyantes, et sur tout ces Bergers et Bergeres so courtois et aimable qu’un le trouve”. (These small flowered valleys, these ombrages hills, these Eux Clairs and Andoyantes and on all these Shepherds and Shepherdesses courteous and pleasant that one finds there), she continues that her heart merits the name of “Mirroir de la Vraie Reconnaissance” (Mirror of the true Reconnaissance) a feature of Astree. She also alludes to the “Fontaine de la Verite d’Amour (Fountain of true Love) in the Palace of Isoure in which true lovers could see themselves before the evil fairy put a spell on it. One month prior to her writing this letter in August 1750 Lady Anson wrote to her sister-in-law Jemima Grey informing her that she is copying the Duke of Devonshire’s picture “5, 6, 7 or 8 hours a day” that had been lent to her at her father’s London home at Carshalton, this is the first version of the shepherds of Arcadia that Poussin painted which is still on show at Chatsworth House, the ancestral home of the Duke of Devonshire. Lady Anson died in 1760 and is buried in the Colwych parish church of Saint Michael and All the Angels .

In Virgil’s Golden Age this perfect world was under the rule of Saturn and in his fourth Eclogue he includes the prophecy of the return to this Golden Age, clearly an allusion to astrology. He says:

“Iam redit et virgo redeunt Saturnia regna” –

“Now returns Virgo, and returning Saturn reigns”

Shugborough is built in the neo-classical style and the shepherd’s monument is the gateway declaring the link to Poussin’s ideal Arcadia. A drive at Shugborough on the way to Tixall Hill crosses the river Sow and the bridge carries the inscription that is straight from Ovid’s Golden Age:

HIC VER PERPETUM
Here is perpetual spring.

The decryption says ‘Poussin Teniers Guard the Key’ and as encryption rarely uses superfluous lettering then we are talking of a specific key. This painting does indeed ‘Guard the Key’ The Key of Solomon’s Temple and remember that the name Solomon is made up of three words that mean the sun. Why should Poussin be able to discuss “certain things” with a French priest who was brother to the king’s superintendent of Finance? Well the king of France was about to undertake a large expensive project to fix a meridian line and map the whole region of his influence and he would employ the best astronomer of the time Cassini in order to do this. Additionally Louis XIV (The Sun King) was also involved in a major project to remodel Paris as a Sun Temple involving the Italian architect Bernini.

Poussin did not finish his work in Paris and fled back to Rome, the reason normally given is that other artists, like Simon Vouet became jealous. It was in this period that Poussin also stood in some kind of conflict with the monarch. From 1642 until his death in 1665 Poussin continued to work mainly in historical genre back in Rome and this included the Seasons series (1660-64) which includes the painting for autumn entitled Grapes of the Promised Land showing some Blue grapes the size of Apples being stolen, a passage from Numbers 13:23 featuring a place called The Brook of Eshcol.


Grapes of the Promised Land by Nicolas Poussin. BLUE APPLES being removed from the Brook of Eschol


In the Abbey of Sion, Switzerland.

Numbers 13 speaks of Moses and the twelve tribes of Israel he sent out looking for Sion.

And so incidently does the Lobineau Document.

Wine Language - Grapes, Vines and Vineyards
The word “grape” came into English in a rather roundabout way. Botanically, the fruit of the grapevine is called a “berry,” as in the phrase “The Cabernet Sauvignon grape has small berries with thick skins.” In Anglo-Saxon days the fruit was called the “winberie.” Though English wineries had a good reputation during the late middle ages (when the climate was warmer and dryer), France came to set the standards for viticulture and winemaking. The French would harvest each bunch of grapes with a hook called a grappe (as in the word “grappling hook” or our verb “to grapple”); the term “grappe” came to refer to the cluster that resulted when the tool was used.
Enter now a bit of present-day confusion. The French word for grape, raisin, is identical in spelling to our term for dried grape but pronounced rather more elegantly (what we call “raisins” are raisins secs in French). The Middle French term grappe de raisin, meaning bunch of grapes, was shortened by English speakers to grappe. It took only a quick semantic jump for the term grappe (which sounds like an English singular form) to refer to a single berry rather than a bunch. We added an “s” to indicate more that one and reached into the great storehouse of Anglo-Saxon words for that useful descriptor “bunch.”

Bear in mind that when French and English words look the same but have different meanings, the French speakers become just as confused as we do. We can avoid any confusion in the future by readopting out lost treasure “wineberie,” modernizing the spelling to the evocative “wineberry.” Any seconds to this motion? I can wait.

As to the tendrils upon which the grapes, be they in bunches or grappes, grow, our present word vine and the French vigne (as in the label term vielles vignes, meaning old vines) are largely similar. In the wine world, the use of either term refers to grapes. The term “Grapevine” is used only when we need to distinguish the grape plant from vines not bearing such versatile fruit.

Our English term “vineyard” comes from the Old English winegeard, and it is telling that the word has a metaphoric meaning according to my dictionary: “a field of activity, especially of spiritual labor.” Americans, the English and the other Anglophones have shortened the “vine” sound in the first syllable to “vin” and yet we differ as to the second syllable: “yerd” in the United States, “yard” elsewhere. Somehow “grape-farm” just doesn’t convey the magic, despite the rather ordinary effect of the word “yard” in most contexts, as in backyard, graveyard, and, the world’s most frightening place, the schoolyard. These vine “yards” may be rather small in England, but in the United States and Australia they can cover thousands of acres, rather a large yard to have to straighten up every spring.

The Hungarian term for vineyard, szőlőskert, may seem rather exotic, until we learn the term for grape, szőlő. The Slovenian vinograd, the Italian vigneto, the French vignoble, the Spanish viñedo, and the Portuguese vinhedo all move in the same direction (the original Latin is vinea). You don't need to attend a course to know what the Germans mean by Weingarten, nor are we much thrown by the Dutch wijngaard, the Swedish vingård or even the Icelandic víngarður (this is not just an academic exercise, since with global warming, we might be seeing Icelandic vintages some day, and they get rather long ripening days in summer). In the Germanic languages, including English, the “garden” words and the “yard” words share an etymologic root.

Now that you know the Hungarian for grape, it pays to addle the brain with the rest of Eastern Europe (since a glass of wine will be the inevitable remedy). Among the Slavic wine ountries, the Slovenians (big wine producers, but they drink it all themselves so you don't get any) call the grape grozdje, the Russians гроздь, the Croatians and Serbs grožđe, the Czechs hrozen, the Bulgarians грозде. In Romania, the grape is strugure. Romanian terms are a bit easier on the tongue, since the language is of Latin origin: vin rosu is red wine, vin rose is rosé, vin alb white wine; a vie is a vine.

You're over the hard part: the grape is uva in Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and in fact in the original Latin. It only takes a small phonetic shift in the Scandinavian languages: druer in Denmark (which boasts the highest per capita wine consumption among all non-producing countries), vindruva in Swedish, drue in Norwegian, vinber among those future vintners, the Icelanders. Our linguistic cousins the Dutch use a similar wijndruif. The Germans go their own way, with many terms for the grape including Rebe, Traube, Weintraube, Beere and Weinbeere. You will note of course that this final term moves us full circle back to our original Anglo-Saxon wineberries. Can I now call for another vote?

has the term Blue Apples ever entered the French Language before Paul Eluard's poetry? Has it ever referred to grapes or raisins or anything to do with a Fruit or a vegetable, ever I just want to know because it keeps being shoehorned into rlc by Roscoe for no particular reason and it's an easy enough question.

Roscoe doesn't know the answer...nor do i, but i could put forward a few intelligent guesses.

Elle tient dans sa paume une pomme de Nubie dont le seul parfum est une nourriture que se partagèrent Judas et Pilate.

She holds in her palm a Nubian apple of which the fragrance alone is a nourishment that was shared between Judas and Pilat....(the last bit is difficult to get the gist of, so i might change this later)

An orange—specifically, the sweet orange - Citrus Sinensis The orange is a hybrid of ancient cultivated origin, possibly between pomelo (Citrus maxima) and mandarin (Citrus reticulata)
Théophraste called them Nubian apples, Celius said they came from the mountains of Maueretania in reference to the Atlas fable and Pliny the elder applied the name citrus to the Nubian apple aka.... an orange.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=ZvRAAAA ... us&f=false



What did Judas and Pilate share...there are oranges on the table during the last supper according to the brush of da Vinci are there not .... ?

anyway....... Nubian blue is a blue colour also called Egyptian blue.

pommes de Nubie = oranges = pommes bleue ?

one of my little theories.

Roscoe doesn't know the answer...nor do i, but i could put forward a few intelligent guesses.

Elle tient dans sa paume une pomme de Nubie dont le seul parfum est une nourriture que se partagèrent Judas et Pilate.

She holds in her palm a Nubian apple of which the fragrance alone is a nourishment that was shared between Judas and Pilat....(the last bit is difficult to get the gist of, so i might change this later)

An orange—specifically, the sweet orange - Citrus Sinensis The orange is a hybrid of ancient cultivated origin, possibly between pomelo (Citrus maxima) and mandarin (Citrus reticulata)
Théophraste called them Nubian apples, Celius said they came from the mountains of Maueretania in reference to the Atlas fable and Pliny the elder applied the name citrus to the Nubian apple aka.... an orange.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=ZvRAAAA ... us&f=false



What did Judas and Pilate share...there are oranges on the table during the last supper according to the brush of da Vinci are there not .... ?

anyway....... Nubian blue is a blue colour also called Egyptian blue.

pommes de Nubie = oranges = pommes bleue ?

or we have....

When Judas placed his kiss of betrayal on Jesus’ cheeks, Judas smelled the spikenard, which had triggered Judas to betray Jesus.

does this help?

my mother's family tradition was giving the gift of a Christmas Orange

I still do it to this day

noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French spicanarde, from Medieval Latin spica nardi, literally, spike of nard.... of the Valerian family.

I made that big so that Roscoe will see it first thing in the morning.

Et factum est eum in sabbato secundo primo abire per secetes discipuli autem illiris coeperunt vellere spicas et fricantes manibus + manducabant quidam autem de farisaeis dicebant et ecce quia faciunt discipuli tui sabbatis quod + non licet resopondens autem inss etxit ad eos numquam hoc lecistis quod fecit d autem quando esurut ipse et qui cum eo erat + intro ibit in domum dei et panes propositionis redis manducavit et dedit et qui bles cum erant uxuo quibus non licebat manducare si non solis sacerdotibus.

1 And it came to pass on the second Sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. 2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the Sabbath days? 3 And Jesus answering them said, have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him; 4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the Shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

Spica signifies, and marks, the Ear of Wheat shown in the Virgin's left hand — the Greek astronomer Aratus, circa 270 B.C., wrote "in her hands"; Vitruvius and Hyginus, "in her right hand"— when she was thought to be Ceres. All the Romans called it thus, Cicero saying Spicum, and their descendants, the modern Italians, Spigha; the French have l'Epi. In Old England it was the Virgin's Spike, and even Flamsteed thus designated it. For at least twenty-five centuries, and among all civilized peoples, the Latin word, or words of similar import, has obtained; although the English astronomer Smyth (1788-1865) mentioned an attempt before his day to secure for it the illustrious name of Newton.

It was to the observations of this star {SPICA} and of Regulus about 300 B.C., recorded by the Alexandrian Timochares, that, after comparison with his own 150 years later, Hipparchos (circa 160-120 B.C.) was indebted for the great discovery attributed to him of the precession of the equinoxes; although Babylonian records, and the temple orientation of Egypt and Greece, may indicate a far earlier practical knowledge of this.

{p.469} It is one of the lunar stars much utilized in navigation, and lies but 2° south of the ecliptic, and 10° south of the celestial equator, coming to the meridian on the 28th of May.

"spicifera est Virgo Cereris" — "The Virgin with her sheaf belongs to Ceres". [Astronomica, Manilius, 1st century AD, p.117]

Roscoe doesn't know the answer...nor do i, but i could put forward a few intelligent guesses.

Elle tient dans sa paume une pomme de Nubie dont le seul parfum est une nourriture que se partagèrent Judas et Pilate.

She holds in her palm a Nubian apple of which the fragrance alone is a nourishment that was shared between Judas and Pilat....(the last bit is difficult to get the gist of, so i might change this later)

An orange—specifically, the sweet orange - Citrus Sinensis The orange is a hybrid of ancient cultivated origin, possibly between pomelo (Citrus maxima) and mandarin (Citrus reticulata)
Théophraste called them Nubian apples, Celius said they came from the mountains of Maueretania in reference to the Atlas fable and Pliny the elder applied the name citrus to the Nubian apple aka.... an orange.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=ZvRAAAA ... us&f=false



What did Judas and Pilate share...there are oranges on the table during the last supper according to the brush of da Vinci are there not .... ?

anyway....... Nubian blue is a blue colour also called Egyptian blue.

pommes de Nubie = oranges = pommes bleue ?

or we have....

When Judas placed his kiss of betrayal on Jesus’ cheeks, Judas smelled the spikenard, which had triggered Judas to betray Jesus.

does this help?

Seules deux églises en France possèdent une particularité liée au soleil. Saint Sulpice à Paris et la Cathédrale de Chartres.

Toutes deux possèdent un vitrail dans lequel un trou aménagé par lequel le soleil projette une marque lumineuse au sol.

A Saint Sulpice, au solstice d’été cette trace matérialise le méridien du lieu, qu’il ne faut pas confondre avec le méridien de Paris situé à 200 mètres à son Est.
Nous pouvons affirmer qu’un phénomène lumineux lié au soleil existe aussi à Rennes le Château. Nous l’avons observé le 17 janvier 2002.

Voici les Photos:


Le phénomène des pommes bleues

Le phénomène des pommes bleues

Le 17 janvier 1781 à Rennes le Château s’éteignait Marie de Negri d’Ablès dame d’hautpoul Blanchefort.

Le 17 janvier 461 s’éteignait Saint Antoine à l’âge de 105 ans.

Ce que les membres de l’A.I.C.T ont pu constater ce 17 janvier 2002 en l’église de Rennes le Château, c’est que le rayon dit des pommes bleues était projeté sur le pilier à l’endroit exact de la Rosace, entre la station numéro 1 du chemin de croix et la station numéro 2, celle de Saint Antoine Ermite et ceci à 11 heures GMT, et non à midi solaire comme il est dit dans la plupart des ouvrages.

Ceci s’explique puisque la déclinaison magnétique est de 0,07° ou de 0,04 gr Est par an, donc si nous faisions le calcul de 1891 époque des travaux, fait dans l’église par Saunière, cela fait donc 111 ans, que multiplie 0,07° soit 7,7° de déclinaison Est, sur une longueur de 8 mètres environ; c’est à dire du vitrail laissant passer la lumière dite des pommes bleues au mur lui faisant face.

Il y a donc 111 ans, le phénomène lumineux était environ à 1 Mètre 10 plus à l’Ouest donc en dessous de la première station du chemin de croix.
Faites vos calculs et tirez en les conclusions qui vous conviennent, elles nous intéressent!

63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Et factum est eum in sabbato secundo primo abire per secetes discipuli autem illiris coeperunt vellere spicas et fricantes manibus + manducabant quidam autem de farisaeis dicebant et ecce quia faciunt discipuli tui sabbatis quod

okay then humour me, start from scratch...which one of these words means cornfiels/fields of corn/grain fields/fields of grain, .....?

i see no mention of cornfields do you ?

and as you pointed out yourself In Old England it was the Virgin's Spike

Et factum est eum in sabbato secundo primo abire per secetes discipuli autem illiris coeperunt vellere spicas et fricantes manibus + manducabant quidam autem de farisaeis dicebant et ecce quia faciunt discipuli tui sabbatis quod

i know all that Roscoe, but i see no corn fields and i see no ears of corn or wheat or tritical or anything cereal like in the original latin whether it be Mathew, Mark or Luke that i read, .......are you following ?

Any Latin scholars please put your heads up above the parapet...does anyone see what i'm talking about. Never mind what you have been told it means...where is the word corn field or fields of wheat in the following please.