Arcadia Discussion Zone

Do you mean independently in terms of anything tangentially related to the enigma of Rennes-le-Chateau? No.

TCP

There you go ruining all my fun, Sheila - I had pithy replies to your last two responses and you deleted them before I could hit "submit", you big meanie.

TCP

An explanation for the water in the tomb.....

http://www.opur.fr/angl/Arles.pdf

A natural dew condenser is my theory... an air well, une vraie fontaine aerienne...

Guardianship is different from being raised by the priest, that makes more sense
See.....it's good de mist the windows, you can see where your going then.

seconded.

yeah but....this is all propaganda to sell the on-going mythos of La Sainte Tombe... a lucrative wee bit of spin to add to the centuries-old legend.

Nope, still doesn’t make any sense now I have read that section again, perhaps Mr Ben Jacob would like to clarify his theories here.

On page 24 of the “Rise” it says …..

The child’s family had entrusted him to the care of the local La Sanch brotherhood, in the conviction that he was about to die. But the brotherhood, who was and remains to this day in control of the sanctuary, decided to use the sacred waters on the child. It seems that the end result was indeed a miracle, for he recovered from his illness. In recognition of this miracle, he was baptised “Abdon”. What is hightly significant is that Marie Denarnaud, his foster aunt, and or her family had a very important and close relationship with the organisation, as it was La Sanch who gave the child into their care. It is equally clear that Sauniere cannot have been ignorant of this connection for he took personal care of the child. In fact, perhaps it was not the Denarnaud family, but Sauniere himself who was responsible for the adoption of this child, but had to use the cover of the Denarnaud family to achieve this desire, after all, priests are not encouraged to raise children, adopted or not.

Questions…..

If the child was the son of Julie Fons/Julie Maleville, why did she give him up to either La Sanch or Sauniere and Marie?...that is what is inferred from the above statement yes?

How could La Sanch have given him into anyone’s care? the child had a mother!

What adoption? Julie lived with the family so why would any of them have to adopt the child?

On page 26 it is hypothesised that Abbe Grassaud might have engineered the adoption of Abdon by the Denarnaud family. Here again is the assertation that the child was adopted by the same family that his mother was a part of…..this doesn’t make sense does it?

Then on page 27 we have this….

We need to remember that the connection must have been more profound, as is shown in his guardianship over little Abdon, a miracle child whom he and Marie received from this confraternity to raise him.

these are not IBJ's theories...start reading on page 23.

"Researcher Jean-Patrick Pourtal interviewed Sonia Moreau, who ran a bookshop in the village....."

."According to author Gérard de Séde and Sonia Moreau...."

I have read it Sheila, the point is, the whole conflicting and confusing scenario surrounding the existence and adoption of this child seems to be based on nothing more than local gossip. One would assume that the authors have at least checked and verified local records, that’s what I am trying to find out.

And who (or why) would/could anyone turn a sick child over to a lay confraternity?

One gets the sense that IBJ considers the Sanch to have been some sort of monastic order, rather than a group of private citizens who had at one time served a funerary function for the condemned, but by Sauniere's time was nothing more than a social group that organized an annual procession during Holy Week.



It certainly doesn't.



Sounds a tad far-fetched, don't you think?

TCP

Maybe IBJ is trying to suggest a "Les Ballets Rose" situation.

You know
Saint Abdon and Sennen remind me a bit like Tobit
It is about burying the dead

they buried a Bishop and got caught.

We know Sauniere had some legends about the dead and cemeteries

The post card is interesting because it reiterates Sauniere's connection with water
like the dolphins in front of his birthplace

and his interest in Grassaud who was a Saint Sulpician
I noticed at Saint Paul has a statue of Father Vianney
July 23, 1816: The Pledge

Eight of the seminarians were ordained to the priesthood on July 22, 1816, in the chapel of St. Irenaeus, the major seminary of
Lyons. The ordaining bishop, the Sulpician, William Louis DuBourg, had recently been ordained in Rome to be the second
bishop of New Orleans, and he was making a tour through France to recruit personnel and funds for his mostly missionary
diocese.

The next day, July 23, a dozen aspiring Marists went to the ancient shrine of Our Lady of Fourviere, which overlooks the city
from its prominent position on a bluff that rises above Lyons. They had signed a pledge dedicating themselves to work toward
founding the Society of Mary. Jean-Claude Courveille celebrated his first Mass and placed the pledge on the altar under the
corporal. The others attended the Mass and received Communion from Courveille. At the end of Mass the pledge was read
aloud. Those who had just been ordained soon moved on to various assignments scattered throughout the diocese.

1816 onward: A Special Friend

John-Marie Vianney became acquainted with Jean-Claude Colin, Marcellin Champagnat and other aspiring Marists at the
seminary in Lyons.

http://maristlaity.com/HistSummaryofMaristBeg.html
Lyons: Our Lady of Fourvière

A devout tradition says that Saint Pothinus, first bishop of Lyons, brought with him an icon of the Virgin, c. 150 A.D.



In 1168, a chapel was built to Our Lady on the hilltop of Fourvière.

Seems Grassaud and Sauniere maybe Marists

Did anybody notice the date
7/22/1816

The order of Marists started at Le Puy Cathedral home of the Black Virgin

Eew! That's sick!

TCP

I think you should probably scroll back up and re-read your source, Lov. It was the 23rd, and took place at Notre Dame de Fourvière in Lyon, not at Notre-Dame du Puy , which isn't in Lyon.

TCP

Thanks TCP for noticing
did you notice this part
Eight of the seminarians were ordained to the priesthood on July 22, 1816, in the chapel of St. Irenaeus, the major seminary of
Lyons. The ordaining bishop, the Sulpician, William Louis DuBourg, had recently been ordained in Rome to be the second
bishop of New Orleans, and he was making a tour through France to recruit personnel and funds for his mostly missionary
diocese.

Dubourg ordained them these 8 seminarians on 7/22 1816
When ordained you declare your allegiance to the Bishop ...
but Dubourg came back to France

He is where Le Puy comes in
Above the main altar in the Cathedral of Le Puy, France, a famous and widely venerated black cedar statue of Mary holding
Jesus had attracted pilgrims for centuries. At the height of the anti-religious fury of the French Revolution, on June 8, 1794, this
statue was publicly desecrated and burned. In 1801 the faithful restored the shrine and installed a replica of the original “Black
Virgin.” Among her many pilgrims was Jean-Claude Courveille, a young man contemplating a vocation to the priesthood. In
1809 he was cured of blindness while praying before the statue and touching his eyes with a little oil his fingers picked up from
rubbing the lamps that burned there. He attributed the cure to Mary’s intercession and returned periodically to the shrine to pray
to her. On the feast of the Assumption in 1812, the 25-year-old Courveille while again praying before the statue of Our Lady of
Le Puy had a spiritual experience of Mary speaking to him (“Here is what I want . . . “). This event marked the beginning of the
Marist project. Three years later, as a seminarian in Lyons with Jean-Claude Colin, Marcellin Champagnat and others, he told
them about the Le Puy inspiration. Besides Courveille, up to fifteen other seminarians and one priest faculty member showed
interest in the plan to establish the Society of Mary. They met regularly during the school year to exchange ideas and dreams
about fulfilling Mary’s wishes in the future.


1812 was a big year for Our Lady
Our Lady of Prompt Succours at New Orleans home of Dubourg was said to have aided in the War of 1812
new Orleans defeated the British who outnumbered them in the thousands
and Our Lady at Le Puy cured Jean Claude Colin of blindness

Back to the Denarnauds

Valentin MERIC former treasurer
Chairman of the Board of Margui.
Denarnaud Guil. current Treasurer
Chairman of the Board of Margui.

That is the English translation from the note books that Octonovo has kindly placed on his website dated October 29th 1900, they are asking Sauniere for a response to the current accounts. Does anyone know who these people are? is this the father of Marie or someone else? What organisation is Guil (Guillaume?) treasurer of?

http://www.octonovo.org/RlC/Fr/docu/cor ... ce1900.htm
I
There are a lot of interesting notes on those pages , lots of letters from Granes in that year and others from someone with the name of Mary CROUX, quite a bit from someone called CAMINADE from Limoux about changes to the cemetery (obviously an architect or someone of that ilk) , a proposition sent to the curate of St John of Paracol about working for the Brotherhood and an enigmatic entry for January 17th from Abbé Barthélèmy Rouanet from Villefort….”Happens tonight? Head” .

And yet we all know those allegations float around from time to time.

On the other side children under the aged of 12years are used in Mediumship rituals as conduits.
Caligiostro used to use children to foretell the future.
And the sandbox ritual uses 2 young boys to shake the box for readings.

Here's the link.

http://www.octonovo.org/RlC/Fr/docu/cor ... ce1900.htm

Thanks i have edited my post

finding out exactly what Guil. (Guillaume?) Denarnaud was the current Treasurer of would go a long way in understanding all the regular payments the Denarnauds as well as others made AND recieved according to those note books IMHO

nite nite

Ohayo gozaimasu.

1892 - Parish board of the Church of Mary Magdelene. (Conseil de Fabrique)

Le marguillier (du latin matricularis, " qui tient un registre ") avait, dans chaque paroisse, la charge du registre des personnes qui recevaient les aumônes de l'Église. Il servait d'aide au sacristain, nommait et révoquait les chantres, les bedeaux... Ce n'est pas une profession mais une charge.

Un marguillier est un laïc, membre du conseil de fabrique, chargé de l'administration des biens de la paroisse (terres, locations de terres, écoles, rentes et impôts), de veiller à l'entretien des locaux, de tenir le registre de la paroisse et de préparer les affaires qui doivent être portées au conseil.

Les membres de ce conseil sont au nombre de trois : un président, un trésorier, un secrétaire.

http://www.gatinaisgeneal.org/michelf/h ... brique.htm