Arcadia Discussion Zone

Forums dedicated to history's mysteries, Rennes-le-Château and beyond…

Read the Arcadia Forum House Rules

It is currently 19 Jun 2013 12:41 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011 12:00 pm 
Offline
High King
User avatar

Joined: 08 Apr 2008 6:44 am
Posts: 2593
Location: Winchester
This is the Abbey of Cadouin in France, which I visited recently. It was founded in 1115, and taken over by Cistercian monks in 1119, and it became part of the pilgim route to Saint Jacques de Compostelle in Spain. Pilgrims to the abbey in the past included Eleanor of Aquitaine and her son, Richard I.

Image

The abbey is situated in the very pretty small town of Cadouin, in the Dordogne, a short distance to the south of the river of that name.

Image

This is the interior of the abbey.

Image

The abbey became an important place of pilgrimmage because of a piece of cloth, now in the museum, that was believed to be part of the burial shroud of Christ, although it is now known to date from the Middle Ages. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Quote:
The Diocese of Périgueux has a remarkable relic: Pierre Raoul or Gérard, a parish priest in Périgord, brought back after the First Crusade the Holy Shroud of Christ, entrusted to him by a dying ecclesiastic of Le Puy, who himself obtained this relic from the legate Adhémar de Monteil. The Cistercians who founded the monastery of Cadouin in 1115 had a church erected in honour of this relic; its cloister, a marvel of art, was consecrated in 1154. Notwithstanding the strict rules of the order interdicting the use of gold vases, the Chapter of Cîteaux permitted a gold reliquary for the Holy Shroud. As early as 1140, the Holy See instituted a confraternity in honour of the Holy Shroud, thought to be the oldest in France. St. Louis in 1270 venerated the Holy Shroud at Cadouin; Charles VI had it exposed for one month in Paris; Louis XI founded at Cadouin in 1482 a daily Mass. Bishop Lingendes in 1444 held an official investigation which asserted the authenticity of the relic.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11668a.htm

More information on the Shroud of Cadouin, its provenance and inscriptions, can be found here.

Quote:
This cloth, held in the Abbey of Cadouin, in Dordogne, was long considered as the Holy Shroud, the cloth believed to have covered the face of Jesus–or enveloped his body–when he was placed in the tomb. This is the head-cloth that the Apostle Peter saw upon entering the sepulchre on the morning of the Resurrection; he observed ‘that the handkerchief that had been on Jesus' head was not lying with the linen cloths but was rolled up in a separate place’ (John 20:7). According to the traditions of the monks of Cadouin and the Chronica of Albéric of Trois-Fontaines, written around the mid thirteenth century, the relic came into the possession of the Bishop of Puy, Adhémar de Monteil, who is believed to have obtained it after the capture of Antioch, during the first Crusade (1095–1099). It was first mentioned in 1214. The cloth, used for healing, was highly venerated in the Middle Ages. Protected by a reliquary, sometimes hidden and displaced to avoid covetous attention, it attracted to the abbey the thousands of pilgrims on The Way of St James.
At the beginning of the twentieth century, its authenticity was questioned. Around 1930, the cloth was examined by Gaston Wiet, director of the Museum of Arab Art in Cairo. He recognized a tirāz from the Fatimid era (a cloth with a strip of writing produced in the royal ateliers), and deciphered the Arabic inscriptions on it. They revealed the names of Caliph El al-Musta‘lī (reigned 1094–1101) and Vizier al-Afdal. The piece’s decorative style, with its close ornamental strips, tiny elements, and Kūfic calligraphy is characteristic of the end of the eleventh century, as is the lamentation of the name of al-Afdal, minister for three kings. The weaving technique that consisted of inserting a decorative tapestry in a canvass weave—here with silk warp and linen weft—is also an invention of the Copts in Egypt, who had perfected the technique at the end of the third century. It only disappeared with the fall of the Fatimid dynasty (1171). No doubt brought by émigrés, it can be seen in Muslim Spain in certain cloths from the caliphal era, especially in the veil of Hishām II.


The link includes images and an inscription.

http://www.qantara-med.org/qantara4/pub ... 13&lang=en

The abbey has a very beautiful interior, including this ceiling fresco ...

Image

... and a remarkable array of stained glass windows, of which the images below are just a small selection.

Image

Image

Image

Image

And the statues include a ubiquitous Jeanne d'Arc:

Image

A very nice abbey and town, well worth visiting if one happens to be in that part of France.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 5:18 am 
Offline
Emperor
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 3:29 am
Posts: 7235
Location: Texas
Thank you Richard beautiful pictures and I love the stained glass windows

Joan too is a favorite :mrgreen:

_________________
Everything is Connected and there are no
coincidences


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 8:34 am 
Offline
High King
User avatar

Joined: 08 Apr 2008 6:44 am
Posts: 2593
Location: Winchester
lovuian wrote:
Thank you Richard beautiful pictures and I love the stained glass windows


Thanks lovuian, I thought you'd like them. :wink: In fact, when I was walking around that abbey, getting a shot of each and every window, you did cross my mind! :)

lovuian wrote:
Joan too is a favorite :mrgreen:


I think because she was under discussion here, just before I went away, I was even more conscious than normal of the many references to her that you see in France, whether in church statuary or in the names of places, and she seemed to be everywhere I went, like a Jeanne D'Arc cultural centre tucked down a little alleyway in a bastide in Quercy, for example.

This is another Joan statue, from another church, in another beautiful place in the Dordogne, called Molieres.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 8:46 pm 
Offline
Emperor
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 3:29 am
Posts: 7235
Location: Texas
richard.webster wrote:
This is the Abbey of Cadouin in France, which I visited recently. It was founded in 1115, and taken over by Cistercian monks in 1119, and it became part of the pilgim route to Saint Jacques de Compostelle in Spain. Pilgrims to the abbey in the past included Eleanor of Aquitaine and her son, Richard I.

Image

The abbey is situated in the very pretty small town of Cadouin, in the Dordogne, a short distance to the south of the river of that name.

Image

This is the interior of the abbey.

Image

The abbey became an important place of pilgrimmage because of a piece of cloth, now in the museum, that was believed to be part of the burial shroud of Christ, although it is now known to date from the Middle Ages. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Quote:
The Diocese of Périgueux has a remarkable relic: Pierre Raoul or Gérard, a parish priest in Périgord, brought back after the First Crusade the Holy Shroud of Christ, entrusted to him by a dying ecclesiastic of Le Puy, who himself obtained this relic from the legate Adhémar de Monteil. The Cistercians who founded the monastery of Cadouin in 1115 had a church erected in honour of this relic; its cloister, a marvel of art, was consecrated in 1154. Notwithstanding the strict rules of the order interdicting the use of gold vases, the Chapter of Cîteaux permitted a gold reliquary for the Holy Shroud. As early as 1140, the Holy See instituted a confraternity in honour of the Holy Shroud, thought to be the oldest in France. St. Louis in 1270 venerated the Holy Shroud at Cadouin; Charles VI had it exposed for one month in Paris; Louis XI founded at Cadouin in 1482 a daily Mass. Bishop Lingendes in 1444 held an official investigation which asserted the authenticity of the relic.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11668a.htm

More information on the Shroud of Cadouin, its provenance and inscriptions, can be found here.

Quote:
This cloth, held in the Abbey of Cadouin, in Dordogne, was long considered as the Holy Shroud, the cloth believed to have covered the face of Jesus–or enveloped his body–when he was placed in the tomb. This is the head-cloth that the Apostle Peter saw upon entering the sepulchre on the morning of the Resurrection; he observed ‘that the handkerchief that had been on Jesus' head was not lying with the linen cloths but was rolled up in a separate place’ (John 20:7). According to the traditions of the monks of Cadouin and the Chronica of Albéric of Trois-Fontaines, written around the mid thirteenth century, the relic came into the possession of the Bishop of Puy, Adhémar de Monteil, who is believed to have obtained it after the capture of Antioch, during the first Crusade (1095–1099). It was first mentioned in 1214. The cloth, used for healing, was highly venerated in the Middle Ages. Protected by a reliquary, sometimes hidden and displaced to avoid covetous attention, it attracted to the abbey the thousands of pilgrims on The Way of St James.
At the beginning of the twentieth century, its authenticity was questioned. Around 1930, the cloth was examined by Gaston Wiet, director of the Museum of Arab Art in Cairo. He recognized a tirāz from the Fatimid era (a cloth with a strip of writing produced in the royal ateliers), and deciphered the Arabic inscriptions on it. They revealed the names of Caliph El al-Musta‘lī (reigned 1094–1101) and Vizier al-Afdal. The piece’s decorative style, with its close ornamental strips, tiny elements, and Kūfic calligraphy is characteristic of the end of the eleventh century, as is the lamentation of the name of al-Afdal, minister for three kings. The weaving technique that consisted of inserting a decorative tapestry in a canvass weave—here with silk warp and linen weft—is also an invention of the Copts in Egypt, who had perfected the technique at the end of the third century. It only disappeared with the fall of the Fatimid dynasty (1171). No doubt brought by émigrés, it can be seen in Muslim Spain in certain cloths from the caliphal era, especially in the veil of Hishām II.


The link includes images and an inscription.

http://www.qantara-med.org/qantara4/pub ... 13&lang=en

The abbey has a very beautiful interior, including this ceiling fresco ...

Image

... and a remarkable array of stained glass windows, of which the images below are just a small selection.

Image

Image

Image

Image

And the statues include a ubiquitous Jeanne d'Arc:

Image

A very nice abbey and town, well worth visiting if one happens to be in that part of France.


I will point out in one of the stained glass windows we have two Knights, a king, and a Bishop, on a chessboard
:wink:

The stained glass windows are detailed showing the procession bringing in the relics and Jesus shroud is quite detailed with the design on it

As for Joan (she is a great hero for me)
She really was the symbol not of just France's freedom but of WOMEN"S Freedom

_________________
Everything is Connected and there are no
coincidences


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2011 9:30 am 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Germany, border to Denmark
richard.webster wrote:
.ceiling fresco ..


Hi Richard, are there more pics of the ceiling fresco you can post ?

_________________
do not trust your brain


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2011 10:20 pm 
Offline
High King
User avatar

Joined: 08 Apr 2008 6:44 am
Posts: 2593
Location: Winchester
hans peper wrote:
richard.webster wrote:
.ceiling fresco ..


Hi Richard, are there more pics of the ceiling fresco you can post ?


Sorry, Hans, just the one above. But here are a few more of the windows.

Image

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 8:25 am 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Germany, border to Denmark
richard.webster wrote:

Sorry, Hans, just the one above. But here are a few more of the windows...


Thank you very much Richard.

_________________
do not trust your brain


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 9:51 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 9258
Location: France
High resolution image of the wonderful frescoe at Cadouin....

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... uselang=fr


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 10:29 am 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Germany, border to Denmark
Sheila wrote:
High resolution image of the wonderful frescoe at Cadouin....

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... uselang=fr


Thank you Sheila, very kind.

_________________
do not trust your brain


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 10:45 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 9258
Location: France
...just don't do anything irreverent with it.... :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 11:03 am 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Germany, border to Denmark
I promise it.

I have an interest, because it would be an early fresco showing the resurrection in this form.

There is no possibility to mirror it, because is in on the inside of a "bowl". :wink:

Its not me doing something irreverent. The artists did it. :P

_________________
do not trust your brain


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 11:06 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 9258
Location: France
..may i ask, is there a specific part of the XVIth century frescoe that upsets you ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 11:19 am 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Germany, border to Denmark
Sheila wrote:
..may i ask, is there a specific part of the XVIth century frescoe that upsets you ?

you can ask everything you want. But my poor English could produce misunderstandings.

The tomb is open. And the cover plate is laying on the ground. Jesus puts his foot on it. In later paintings (gothic period) the coverplate in on the tomb, but turned 90 degrees so that Jesus can come out.

In the language of the master builders is the tomb a symbol for the church building. After the gothic rebuild to a cathedral, the building is turned from the north/south alighnment to the modern east/west position. Here the cover plate is the symbol for the new cathedral. Cadouin is alighned east/west and it has the orgin position.

In this case we have an orgin romanic building. So the positiom of the coverplate is my interest. et voila : it is not turned.

_________________
do not trust your brain


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 11:36 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 9258
Location: France
the original chapelle oratoire was built in 1112 to house the relic, the ruins of which could still be seen in 1840.

http://books.google.fr/books?id=Dd26Bnc ... in&f=false


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 11:49 am 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Germany, border to Denmark
Sheila wrote:
the original chapelle oratoire was built in 1112 to house the relic, the ruins of which could still be seen in 1840.

http://books.google.fr/books?id=Dd26Bnc ... in&f=false


I cannot read it (french). Is there something written about the orgin alighnment ?

_________________
do not trust your brain


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 12:18 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 9258
Location: France
Quote:
L'église possède la particularité d'être percée de trois oculi (petite fenêtre ronde) alignées, une sur la façade et deux sur la coupole. À chaque équinoxe ces oculi sont traversées par un rayon de soleil, matérialisant l'orientation symbolique de l'église vers l'Orient.


....she is orientated east.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 12:30 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Germany, border to Denmark
Sheila wrote:
Quote:
L'église possède la particularité d'être percée de trois oculi (petite fenêtre ronde) alignées, une sur la façade et deux sur la coupole. À chaque équinoxe ces oculi sont traversées par un rayon de soleil, matérialisant l'orientation symbolique de l'église vers l'Orient.


....she is orientated east.


Could it be, that this is the orgin old chapel ? It will accord to the position of the coverplate in the fresco.
..
Attachment:
DateiAbtei Cadouin.jpg

_________________
do not trust your brain


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Abbey and Shroud of Cadouin
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2011 1:21 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 9258
Location: France
...the land where the original church was built was called la Salvetat, therefore it became l'église de la Salvatat et Cadouin built by the austere cilice wearing cistercian, Géraud de Salles.

Image

you can just make out this pax in Richard's first photograph... above the main doorway on the first archway, directly below the occulus.

Here is the doorway in 1957.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group