Arcadia Discussion Zone

Sure people in the 1960's could have fabricated a fantasy (hoax), but, IMHO if they did they had more to begin with then you are indicating.
bty, I just received my copy of the "excursion text" from SESA, now to translate. By the time I am through with this quest I will probably be fluent in French

Wayward wrote:



Yes, I'm sorry too. I thought when you said you were certain about the 'same time theory' that you had something more to go on than desire.

Wayward wrote:



Why?

Wayward wrote:



Sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying here. Why can't I just take the 119 (or 128, it makes no odds) letters from the 'Tombstone Text' and create a message that I find desirable for my hoax narrative, and then 'encode' that message (and then 'uncode' it, and publicize it, just in case)?

Wayward wrote:



I wrote this earlier and you agreed with it:



Is there evidence of the existence of the 'Shepherdess Parchment' prior to the 1960s? AFAIK there isn't, but I stand to be corrected on that. As I said, I don't know much about the subject...

Yeah right!

Just quietly, I do. Very much so. Do you Tingra?

:- after years of constructing the "temple" through English books, it's not hard to see the maths but it's much harder to see it in French - whether they have a different system or specific idiosyncrasies , I can't be fully sure but I do know one thing, it is a relatively inelegant solution which lacks the beautiful rhythm I normally find in these engimas and I have faith that Roger was right, de Cherisey was a genius so I choose to believe something is indeed lost in the translation.

I think Verne's influence was his editor a prominent freemason(french) as was Tisseryre. The direction they were using was an *Egyptian one. Reconstituting something that was lost in description until the rosetta stone leaves a lot to be desired because it's then not a fully understood system. De Cherisey et al. on the other hand approaches it from an intact system through the i ching - a more thorough coding system replete with lineage. He also understands the sabian heritage of the Magdelene so his system was threefold in that he used the codex bezae(greek & latin), sabinite, and ancient chinese(dialect & translation unknown). In reconstiting his puzzle he therefore does so with more thorough and technically correct systems.

*From Sheila's links - thanks Sheila
http://www.apprendre-en-ligne.net/crypt ... ngada.html

There is at least one rlc author who claims the codex Bezae is coded!

IMO that was the whole point in using the text in that it has a natural template/foundation for codes built into it - so it's both an Architectural edifice of words and reiteration of mathematical constants at the same time. Furthermore the text would be something guarded so it was always a question of where and why De Cherisey had access to it through family et al?

Aren't we discussing the so-called 'Shepherdess Parchment' and its supposed link to the 'Tombstone Text'?

The 'Shepherdess Parchment' is derived from a 19th century version of the Latin Vulgate, is it not?

(Published by John Wordsworth and Henry J. White (Novum Testamentum Domini Nostri Iesu Christi latine secundum sancti Hieronymi (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1889–1954))

I was under the impression that it was the other Coded Parchment (the 'Dagobert Parchment') that is associated with the Codex Bezae!


EDITED TO ADD: No need to reply Tertius, I see now that your post was directed at Tingra's question

This is correct.

The Dagobert and Shepherdess parchments were written by two different people. The Dagobert parchment was modified by Philippe de Cherisey, he said so.

Although just to confuse matters Plantard said that the two were opposite sides of the same original parchment. We have never seen this original parchment, only individual copies.

The other curious thing is that the Dagobert parchment does not mention King David.

It should say this:



But it doesn't.






No mention of King David.
Hardly useful for a group trying to promote the bloodline of the Merovingian dynasty.

The value of the Dagobert parchment is the very odd layout.



The layout is contrived to place the word SPICA into the centre of the irregular Pentacle.



The layout is made to represent the constellation of Virgo. The star SPICA is Alpha Virginis

King Hiram Of Tyre


by Wayne Blank
Known also as "Huram" and "Horam," Hiram was the king of Tyre in the time of King David and King Solomon. While he was politically allied with David, Hiram's workmen helped David's people to build David's palace in Jerusalem, and then after Solomon succeeded his father David as King of Israel, Hiram's workers also participated in the building of the first Temple (see Temples). Much of the fine cedar for both the palace and Temple came from Tyre.
Hiram In Bible History

Hiram was politically expedient; when he saw David's God-given power, for his own survival Hiram knew it best to make himself an ally of David rather than an enemy, although it seems that their personal friendship was genuine:



"And David became greater and greater, for The Lord, the God of hosts, was with him. And Hiram king of Tyre sent messengers to David, and cedar trees, also carpenters and masons who built David a house." (2 Samuel 5:10-11 RSV)

After David died, Hiram continued the friendship with Solomon, providing materials and skilled workmen for the building of the Temple:



"Now Hiram king of Tyre sent his servants to Solomon, when he heard that they had anointed him king in place of his father; for Hiram always loved David."
"And Solomon sent word to Hiram, "You know that David my father could not build a house for The Name of The Lord his God because of the warfare with which his enemies surrounded him, until The Lord put them under the soles of his feet. But now The Lord my God has given me rest on every side; there is neither adversary nor misfortune. And so I purpose to build a house for The Name of The Lord my God, as The Lord said to David my father, 'Your son, whom I will set upon your throne in your place, shall build the house for My Name.' [see also "My Father's House"] Now therefore command that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me; and my servants will join your servants, and I will pay you for your servants such wages as you set; for you know that there is no one among us who knows how to cut timber like the Sidonians."

"When Hiram heard the words of Solomon, he rejoiced greatly, and said, "Blessed be The Lord this day, who has given to David a wise son to be over this great people."

"And Hiram sent to Solomon, saying, "I have heard the message which you have sent to me; I am ready to do all you desire in the matter of cedar and cypress timber. My servants shall bring it down to the sea from Lebanon; and I will make it into rafts to go by sea to the place you direct, and I will have them broken up there, and you shall receive it; and you shall meet my wishes by providing food for my household."

"So Hiram supplied Solomon with all the timber of cedar and cypress that he desired, while Solomon gave Hiram twenty thousand cors of wheat as food for his household, and twenty thousand cors of beaten oil. Solomon gave this to Hiram year by year. And The Lord gave Solomon wisdom, as he promised him; and there was peace between Hiram and Solomon; and the two of them made a treaty." (1 Kings 5:1-12 RSV)




viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2194

The so called "parchement":

ET FACTUM EST EUM IN SABBATO SECUNDO PRIMO ABIRE PER SCCETES DISGIPULI AUTEM ILLIRIS COEPERUNT VELLERE SPICAS ET FRICANTES MANIBUS + MANDUCABANT QUIDAM AUTEM DE FARISAEIS DTCEBANT EI ECCE QUIA FACIUNT DISCIPULI TUI SABBATIS + QUOD NON LICET RESPONDENS AUTEM INS SEIXIT AD EOS NUMQUAM HOC LECISTIS QUOD FECIT DAUID QUANDO ESURUT IPSE ET QUI CUM EO ERAI + INTRO IBIT IN DOMUM (DUMUM?)
DEI ET PANES PROPOSITIONIS ------------- REDIS
MANDUCAVIT ET DEDIT ET QUI ------------- BLES
CUM ERANT UXUO QUIBUS NO
N LICEBAT MANDUCARE SI NON ---- SOLIS SACERDOTIBUS


Codex Bezae:

ET FACTUM EST EUM IN SABBATO SECUNDOPRIMO ABIRE PER SEGETES DISCIPULI AUTEM ILLIUS COEPERUNT VELLERE SPICAS ET FRICANTES MANIBUS MANDUCABANT QUIDAM AUTEM DE FARISAEIS DICEBANT EI ECCE QUID FACIUNT DISCIPULI TUI SABBATIS QUOD NON LICET RESPONDENS AUTEM IHS DIXIT AD EOS NUMQUAM HOC LEGISTIS QUOD FECIT DAUID QUANDO ESURIIT IPSE ET QUI CUM EO ERAT INTRO IBIT IN DOMUM DEI ET PANES PROPOSITIONIS MANDUCAVIT ET DEDIT ET QUI CUM ERANT QUIBUS NON LICEBAT MANDUCARE SI NON SOLIS SACERDOTIBUS.



The Vulgate:

FACTUM EST AUTEM IN SABBATO SECUNDOPRIMO CUM TRANSIRET PER SATA VELLEBANT DISCIPULI EIUS SPICAS ET MANDUCABANT CONFRICANTES MANIBUS QUIDAM AUTEM PHARISAEORUM DICEBANT ILLIS QUID FACITIS QUOD NON LICET IN SABBATIS ET RESPONDENS IESUS AD EOS DIXIT NEC HOC LEGISTIS QUOD FECIT DAVID CUM ESURISSET IPSE ET QUI CUM EO ERANT QUOMODO INTRAVIT IN DOMUM DEI ET PANES PROPOSITIONIS SUMPSIT ET MANDUCAVIT ET DEDIT HIS QUI CUM IPSO ERANT QUOS NON LICET MANDUCARE NISI TANTUM SACERDOTIBUS


So Roscoe, you are getting things muddled....all three versions above have the word David in them.

Wayward wrote:



Spartacus wrote:



Wayward wrote:



As I wrote earlier, I'm not really sure what you're on about here, but... using the scenario outlined above (that Plantard discovered the article containing the 'Tombstone Text' and decided it would be perfect for his hoax) I created this extremely important message using the 119 letters found in the 'Tombstone Text':


SPARTACUS PARACLETE GRANDMASTER XXIII ORDER SION
TEMPLE GOLD HEAVEN QUEEN BELOVED JEAN
MASONIC DEED XXXIII CEDE DECAL CLUE
DIG BENEATH FEET


(of course, this is in English, but it doesn't matter to the point I'm making)

So, as far as I can tell (and as I said, I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) all I need to do now is:

1) Add 9 other letters (PS PRAECUM), which is very important because I need 128 letters, perhaps adding a phrase to the above message along the lines of REMAPS CUP (for our grail seekers),

2) Take this 128 letter message and encode it using the Vigenère Square code (MORT EPEE as key phrase),

3) Move the 128 letters of the resulting sequence up one letter of the alphabet,

3) Encode the resulting 128 letter sequence using another Vigenère Square (the key phrase this time being the entire 'Tombstone Text' in reverse, but with the addition of PS PRAECUM),

4) Move the letters of the resulting 128 letter sequence down one letter of the alphabet,

5) This 128 letter sequence is then sequenced again using two grids of 64 (8x8) (which is why 9 letters had to be added to the 119 letters of the 'Tombstone Text'), and the de Moivre knights tour,

6) Add, in the middle of this sequence, a 12 letter phrase to help the 'seeker' to realize that this is a coded anagram, lets say THIS A ANAGRAM,

7) Add this 140 letter message (as a sequence of superfluous letters) to a suitable carrier text, in this case John 12:1-11


Ok Wayward, over to you...

...makes me dizzy just reading it ....life is too short.

Fair enough, but can you see a flaw in my 'deductions'?

um....pass, that side of it just nips ma heid.

Good point Sheila, and you are correct but it shouldn't say David. So my guess is someone has mentioned it and Roscoe is quoting without checking the veracity. In this case because it is more technically and historically correct to say Solomon because it is only then that " paganism" as the sun is allowed into the "building" of the temple then whomever said it somehow knew the difference. Therefore through this mistake we can see that it is not the temple in Jerusalem but another temple... one possibly where the legend of the oak tree that David found sprung from.

Very good Sparty, you have composed a very readable text using a 128 letter anagram. BUT, when I was writing to "rain", (who I have to apologize to, as she knows much more about this than I do), I mentioned using what you call the carrier text that is related to the mystery. You used two texts already established. So try it again, (just kidding), you proved your point. But, then why the obvious mistakes, and for that matter, why even a 1905 copy of the tombstone in the first place? A copy of, as most seem to say a tombstone that never existed. And, I do wonder what difference finding your own carrier text would make to the exercise. A carrier text related to the enigma, such as the one you used John 12.

The page in question from the original Codex Bezae:

"Dictionnaire de la Bible"
Tome 1: A-B
Editor: F. Vigouroux, Paris, 1895

Then what happened in the Canaries?

...a new island emerged

i posted that so you could see the original "David".

So what is de Cherisey talking about here.....
What parchment does he mean that cites the Serpent Rouge?

Revenant alors à la blanche coline, le ciel ayant ouvert ses vannes, il me sembla près de moi sentir une présence, les pieds dans l’eau comme celui qui vient de recevoir la marque du baptème, me retournant vers l’est, face à moi je vis déroulant sans fin ses anneaux, l’énorme SERPENT ROUGE cité dans les parchemins, salée et amère, l’énorme bête déchainée devint au pied de ce mont blanc, rouge en colère.

Returning then to the white hill, the sky having opened its gates, it seems there is a presence near me, the feet in the water like him who has just been baptised, turning myself again towards the east facing me I saw unrolling without end, his coils, the enormous SERPENT ROUGE cited in the parchments, salty and bitter, the enormous beast unleashed became at the foot of this white hill, red with anger.

and as we speak a new island is emerging
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2059576/El-Hierro-Volcano-eruption-New-Canary-Island-emerges-underwater-volcano-rises.html

from a underwater volcano in the Canairies

Sorry "rain" and "Sparty" it just takes me longer then most.

1: Simply find the Elie Tisseryre text from 1906.

2: Create your message as an anagram of the tombstone text.

3: code the letters of your message.

4: pick a related text to your message, say John 12.

5: Insert the letters of your coded text into the related text in some sequence but in the original order.

Is there no mystery?

Don't apologise Wayward, I should apologise to you. I can't really explain what is a very challenging topic. I'm trying to get you to see exactly where these "pieces" actually come from.
I'm know what has been said about the tombstone but I don't have any evidence.
BTW do you have a copy of the P.O.S book by J.L. Chaumeil?


+ I don't agree with or have anything to do with what S.P. is trying to make you do.

IMHO that is the most plausible scenario given the available evidence and my knowledge of the Plantard et al modus operandi. At the same time, there may be more evidence that I am not aware of that could add something. As I said, I'm no expert on this subject.

Wayward wrote:



I wouldn't be too sure about that if I was you...



What two texts are you writing of? For the scenario outlined above, only one text is needed (the 'Tombstone Text'). Any carrier text could be used, as long as it was sufficiently well known that a sequence of superfluous letters added to it would be spotted.

You write repeatedly that the 'message' is related to the carrier text (John 12). Why do you think that? The 'Shepherdess Message' is:



In what way do you think that the 'Shepherdess Message' 'relates' to John 12? And/Or in what way do you think that the 'Shepherdess Message' 'relates' to even the 'bloodline' scenario?

Wayward wrote:



IMHO the Sauniere affair is a mystery, and I'd go as far as to say that the 'Tombstone Text' is certainly ( ) puzzling.

But for the 'Shepherdess Text' and the 'Tombstone Text' to have been composed at the same time (which you believe to be a certainty) the existence of the supposed second 'PS PRAECUM Tombstone' becomes essential, for the simple reason that 128 letters are needed rather than the 119 letters of the 'Tombstone Text'.

And (again I stand to be corrected on this) AFAIK the 'PS PRAECUM Tombstone' has only been shown to exist in the source material put out by Plantard et al in the 1960s! Therefore, IMHO, the onus is on the 'believers' to show that the 'PS PRAECUM Tombstone' really existed on or before 1906. IMHO if that cannot be done, there can be absolutely no certainty that the 'Tombstone Text' and the 'Sherpherdess Message' were composed at the same time.

Am I wrong? Has the 'PS PRAECUM Tombstone' been shown to exist outside the narrative introduced by Plantard et al in the 1960s?

Regards,

Spartacus

wtf...