Arcadia Discussion Zone

In about 1070 Calabrian Monks showed up in the Ardennes area and established an abbey at
Orval which they evidently inhabited for almost 40 years. After these monks mysteriously disappeared Orval became Cistercian.

The abbey of "Our Lady of Mount Sion" was founded in the very early 12th century by a small monastic order with Calabrian ties.

Count Roger, had the Greek Monks leave Calabria after 1091, which would of course indicate they had been Byzantine prior to that date.

It is known that Greeks and Franks shared churchs in 12th century Jerusalem, and Emmanuel Rey, in the 19th century wrote that there were two groups of crusader builders, one Frank and the other Byzantine.

Does this seem to indicate that "The Order of Our Lady of Mount Sion" was also Byzantine?

edited to correct date to 1070 (typo)

Byzantine-rite Catholics, actually.



Greeks, Latins and Armenians shared custody of the holy sites in Jerusalem. That's not to say it was a cooperative effort, the rivalry was at times bitter and intense.



No, because the Latin monks of the Abbey of N-D de Sion were Canons Regular who lived under the Rule of St. Augustine. There never was an "order" of Our Lady of Mount Sion, despite Baigent's contortions (I have a copy of Rey's article with Baigent's handwritten notes scribbled in the margins, fascinating insight into where his mind was going at the time).

TCP

Tim, would you consider sharing a copy of the Rey's article you have?

Oh Bill
I like your Byzantine take on the Order of Our Lady of Mount Sion

Which leads to one of my all time favorite words, "simultaneum". It actually isn't accurate to use this term for the situation you are describing, but I am invoking poetic license in this case, because it is such a fine word!

I know Saint Louis was a Builder
He built Saint Chapelle
Sainte-Chapelle fitting in to a long tradition of prestigious palace chapels. Just as the Emperor could pass privately from his palace into the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, so now Louis could pass directly from his palace into the Sainte-Chapelle. More importantly, the two-story palace chapel had obvious similarities to Charlemagne's palatine chapel at Aachen (built 792-805) - a parallel that Louis was keen to exploit in presenting himself as a worthy successor to the first Holy Roman Emperor.

He was taught well by his mother Blanche Castile
He believed in the Great Architect or Geometrician

Saint Louis Bible illumination

Sorry about bringing this again Tim, but I didn't want it to get lost. I had noticed that in the"Sion Switzerland" thread you mentioned the group of the "Rule of St. Augustine" being brought to Jerusalem prior to 1100, but Jacques de Vitry (who btw,did not reach the holy land himself until 1216), says the Canons Regulars were not even in "The Holy Sepulchre" until 1114 and ND of Mount Sion, much later. The Wiki article on ND of Mount Sion, says it was a small monastic order, which had abbeys on Mount Sion, on Mount Carmel, in southern Italy at Calabria and also in France.

Thank you wayward for bringing this interesting point up
Yes and Saint Louis brought

in the 12th century record a community of monks on the holy mountain. Despite continual difficulties, the community built a monastery and church dedicated to the Virgin Mary on Mount Carmel in 1263. Saint Louis, King of France, had visited Mount Carmel in 1254, and brought back six French hermits for whom he built a convent near Paris.

Yes Saint Louis the relic finder and owner brought back the hermits to Paris
Mount Carmel

Nazorean - Denotes those under a special vow of holiness wherein one's whole life is consecrated upward toward purity and perfection. Nazorean were also noted for their abstinence from social drinking. Essene villages near Mount Carmel were filled with Nazorean, hence the village name of Nazareth.

Mount Carmel - A spiritual stronghold of the northern Essene movement. A place spoken of in reverence by ancient Egyptian Priests, a place where Pythagoras (the father of mathematics and philosophy) studied, the place of the Oracle and Altar of Elijah the Prophet, a place where Yeshua (Jesus) is said to have been taught and a place whence a remnant of Hebrew speaking followers of Yeshua inspired the formation of the Catholic Carmelite Order.

It would explain why Saint Louis had in his Bible the Great Architect or Geometrician

Sure, PM me an e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

TCP

No. These Canons Regular (under the Rule of St. Augustine) are said to have been brought from Europe by Godfrey de Bouillon and installed in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jersualem. The confusion stems from the fact that this group of Canons Regular weren't chartered as their own distinct congregation (Congregation of Canons Regular of the Holy Sepulchre) until 1114, leading some later chroniclers to conclude that they had no presence in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre or in Jerusalem prior to that time. The Congregation was given authority over the churches on Mount Zion, Mount Carmel, and the Mount of Olives.

There is a Papal bull dating from, I believe, 1143 which confirms the rights and possessions of the Canons Regular of the Holy Sepulchre, including possessions they were accorded by Godfrey de Bouillon himself, and as he died in 1100 this would put the Canons in Jerusalem by that time. They just weren't chartered as their own distinct congregation until 1114. There are also cartulary references from around the same time that refer to the abbots of N-D de Mont Sion as "priors", indicating that the abbey served as a priory (chapter house) to a larger congregation or order.

Also adding to the confusion is a completely separate and distinct "Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem", a chivalric rather than a religious order, that claims a very similar origin (brought by Godfrey to Jerusalem and housed in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre) though the documentary evidence it has cited in the past seems to refer to the Canons Regular rather than to armed knights.

TCP

Canons Regular
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, a canon regular is essentially a religious cleric; "The Order of Canons Regular is necessarily constituted by religious clerics, because they are essentially destined to those works which relate to the Divine mysteries, whereas it is not so with the monastic Orders.

Divine Mysteries....interesting

This is what constitutes a canon regular and what distinguishes him from a monk
Erasmus, himself a canon regular, declared that the canons regular are a "median point" between the monks and the secular clergy

The canons, he tells us, were spared the long choral duties, the sharp reproofs, the stern discipline of the Black Monks, and were not bound to the Spartan simplicity of clothing and diet of the field-working Cistercians

According to St. Augustine, a canon regular professes two things, "sanctitatem et clericatum". He lives in community, he leads the life of a religious, he sings the praises of God by the daily recitation of the Divine Office in choir; but at the same time, at the bidding of his superiors, he is prepared to follow the example of the Apostles by preaching, teaching, and the administration of the sacraments, or by giving hospitality to pilgrims and travellers, and tending the sick.

All this talk of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and not one mention of the muslim family that has held the keys to the church for over 900 years? Surely they have some influence?

http://www.nuseibehfamily.net/news.htm

(I might be off on the 900 years, but I'm pretty sure I read that some-where)

Just providing a link to what TCP said above.....

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/church.html

Since the Crusades, the precincts and fabric of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher have come into the possession of three major denominations: the Greek Orthodox, the Armenian Orthodox and the (Latin) Roman Catholic. Other communities - the Egyptian Coptic Orthodox, the Ethiopian Orthodox and the Syrian Orthodox - also possess certain rights and small properties in or about the building. The rights and privileges of all of these communities are protected by the Status Quo of the Holy Places (1852), as guaranteed in Article LXII of the Treaty of Berlin (1878).

Following the earthquake in 1927, the prevailing political authority (as provided by the Status Quo) had to intervene in order to carry out emergency structural repairs. Such intervention has not been necessary since 1959, when the three principal communities established a Common Technical Bureau.

Some issues, however, remain unresolved; one of these is the continuing dispute between the Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox concerning ownership rights in the Chapel of the Ethiopians (on the roof of the Chapel of St. Helena). Since the dispute began, the government (as the prevailing political authority) has chosen not to intervene, in the hope that the two communities will resolve the matter between themselves

Tim, would you consider sharing a copy of the Rey's article you have?[/quote]

Sure, PM me an e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

TCP[/quote]


Tim, concerning those pages you sent me, on the top of page 33, there are hand written notes I cannot quite make out and also the same at the bottom of page 36. If your copy is readable in those areas would you consider posting or PMing those notes? I assume they are what you had said were by de C., but some seemed to be in different handwriting. How did you happen to get this text, or is it available (with the notes) somewhere and I missed it?---Bill

At the top of page 33 he's written: cep=vine plant and ouvrer=to work. If you look at page 32 he's underlined the words cépages and ouvrées.

At the bottom of page 36 he's written: *Sainville GM St. Lazarus till 1312

And below it: 1281 acte of abdication by Adam

And below that: Adam then went to Sicile where he died in 1291.

If you look immediately above the first written note you'll see a printed footnote referencing "Thomas de Sainville, maître des chevaliers de Saint-Lazare. Further up the text he's underlined the name of Adam, the last abbot of Notre Dame du Mont-Sion.

These aren't Chérisey's notes, they're Baigent's. No, these copies aren't publicly available, not the ones with the notes anyway.

TCP