Arcadia Discussion Zone

I have a question for Forum members on the above mentined castle, the existence of which I have only just come across.

I'm reading the recent English translation of Michel Lamy's 1984 book on Jules Verne. It's full of interesting material, but one thing in particular really caught my eye.

He talks about an ancient castle in the vicinity of La Vialasse, a tiny hamlet on the D14 road between Rennes-les-Bains and Bugarach. It appears from his description that nothing much if anything is left of it, but that its foundations are visible in the lie of the land. Apparently it is in the shape of a ship, and from this he makes the connection with Captain Bugarach (the ship appears to be sailing towards the mountain of that name) in the Jules Verne novel Clovis Dardentor.

To quote :

"... you can see a ship below the road. It is the site of the ancient fortified castle of La Vialasse, which has the appearance of a ship with three bridges. Oddly enough, in the last several years an immense television antenna has been added that reinforces this resemblance by supplying the mast."

I don't know if the TV antenna is there any more, but I have driven along that road many times (ironically, the route from Rennes-les-Bains to Cucugnan / Queribus is my favourite drive in France) and I've never noticed this, which doesn't say much for my powers of observation. It appears, to paraphrase Henry Lincoln, that "I have looked, but I have not seen".

Nor have I come across it in anything I've ever read before.

I don't think it appears on a map, because I think I would have noticed. Unfortunately I can't check this on the very detailed map of this area I used to have, as I have not yet replaced the copy I gave to a person I met trying to navigate his way through the thick woods above Rennes-les-Bains to the Val Dieu, armed with nothing more than a book on sacred geometry. I was so concerned for his welfare that I gave him my map, but he could still be up there for all I know.

And I've also been through my photos of that valley, taken from the crest of Bezu, and nothing jumps out at me there, either.

So my qustion is - has anyone else ever come across this, and if so, do they have any anecdotes of it they could share, or point me in the direction of any reference materials?

Many thanks.

Richard
I haven't seen this but I will be going to Rennes le Chateau area soon for about a month and I will see if I can find it and photograph it if possible.

I don't know if this is a clue as to its whereabouts:

Thanks, Roscoe. I've had a pm kindly confirming that it does exist, and that if one were to drive out of Rennes-les-Bains (towards Bugarach) it's on the left-hand side, roughly opposite the turn-off to the back road that goes through Val Dieu to Rennes-le-Chateau. Can't believe I've never noticed it, but I guess I wasn't looking for it, so .....

Incidentally, the Lamy book on Jules Verne is well worth reading. I won't bang on about it here, but I was interested to learn that Lamy originally developed his interest in RLC through the De Sede book, but it was de Cherisy who pointed him in the direction of Jules Verne. He told Lamy that one of Verne's books held clues to the RLC affair, only he didn't know which book, and this launched Lamy onto this particular research track.

Thanks again, and have a great trip.

There has been considerable discussion of Verne's books and his ties to people in the area of interest, as well as his discussion of Vigenere's coding methods, from which it is suspected that the "parchments" were coded, on French language fora, particularly the rennes-le-chateau-archives site.

But Verne wasn't the only XIXth century French author discussing such things, as the cryptology thing was a fad at the time.

" "

Almost all the property in and around RLC/RLB is either held in private or municipal/state ownership. Much of it is "posted property" meaning one may not trespass without specific permission. In all cases there is a protocol governing crossing people's fields (watching where you step among crops, closing gates behind yourself, etc.) and there are strict laws about the digging up of places and the use of metal detectors.

That being said, not many "hikers" seem to be all that mindful of such niceties and I imagine get quite shirty when caught and given a radically violent boot to the backside, no matter how well earned. O tempo, o mores.

The finding of historic/archeological artifacts, whether on private or "public" property (and in France, municipal or State property isn't necessarily considered "public") without reporting it, and removing such finds from France is a felony. From the private point of view, finding and removing such artifacts from private/municipal property, without the consent of the owner can be a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the cumulative value of the items and can be the object of a criminal complaint by the relevant private party or municipality.

" "

Hi All,

I am going to La Vialasse again at the end of this month, 22 June to be precise for two weeks, but this time to my daughter's wedding. Her future father in law's estate borders the La Vialasse Castle ruins.

I have actually stayed in 'Rosette', one of the pair of cottages at the base of the castle mound and into which the cottage is built into the hillside. The bathroom of Rosette has as one of it's walls the side of the mound. We will stay in Rosette again for a couple of weeks during this trip.

I have walked up to the top of the Cathar ruins overlooking the 'Le Moulin' the house on the river below and you can see the hamlet of La Vialsse.

The TV ariel on top of the ruins provides reception for 'Le Moulin', it is the only way they can get reception by propping it on top.

I believe the ruins are on public land, 'Le Moulin's' boundary runs beside the ruin's mound/hill on the river side. So that is out of bounds. Access the ruins by crossing the small road bridge and park the car to one side and then it's a straight climb to the top of the ruins.

I have a heap of digital photos of the Castle if any one would like a copy. I did send them to Andy Gough. If anyone would like me to take additional photos or gather any detail, I would be pleased to do it for you ! I don't know how to post photos here...if anyone can tell me...I'll post some for interest.

When we stay in the Cottage called 'Rosette' the owner, our family after the wedding, has told me that people have approached him in the past to do excavations at the base of the castle, but he has refused as he and his wife have a beautiful garden there. There is also a legend that treasure is buried in the vicinity dating back to the Cathars....but we all know that legends are legends most of the time.

I have often sat in the garden below the castle and thought about the misery of the people who built it and lived there, and of course those who were slaughtered, probably where I was sitting !!

When passing La Vialasse from the road, which is fairly high, the caslte can be quite clearly seen in the vally with the two river road bridges close by. Le Moulin is to the right and the hamlet of La Vialsse on the left.

Cheers for Now,

Colin Boucher
Melbourne, Australia[/quote]

Thanks, Colin. As the person who made the initial enquiry, I'm gratified at all the public and private responses.

There's clearly a lot more to that stretch of the D14 than I had ever imagined. Will have to learn to be more observant, since I have driven along here on several occasions, in complete ignorance of what lay beneath the road. Thanks for the info about the ruins on the hill. Look forward to going up there on my next visit.

Big Melbourne fan too, by the way!

If there are the ruins of a castle (château) at La Vialasse, then I find it a little bit odd that the IGN have chosen not to indicate it on their 1:25000 scale maps. I'm not saying that there are no ruins at La Vialasse, but are we sure that they're the ruins of a castle?



No indication of a ruined castle.


Even the vestigial castle ruins at the nearby tiny hamlet of Montferrand is labelled on the IGN map:




I know there's a ruined château at Bugarach which is only indicated by a generic ruin map symbol and not labelled "Château Ruiné", but the alleged ruined castle at La Vialasse isn't even indicated by a generic ruin map symbol.

Anyway, please realise that I am *not* asserting that there is no ruined castle at La Vialasse, only that it's odd that the IGN have failed to notice it.


Regards,

David.

No, I agree. It is strange, given that, as you point out, the most vestigal of remains, do qualify for inclusion. The 1:25,000 map is littered with such examples. There'll probably now be some hare-brained conspiracy theory that the IGN have deliberately omitted it! (Remember the one about changing the height of Cardou!)

One thought does occur. Recalling the passage in the Lamy book about Jules Verne that prompted this thread in the first place, the reference is to something that has the shape of a boat - pointing towards Bugarach. Reading back through a pm someone kindly sent confirming the location, it would appear, if my understanding is correct, that the hamlet itself forms this shape, the discernibility of which is best demonstrated when looking down on it from above; from the D14, close to the turn-off to the back road to Rennes-le-Chateau.

Anyway, I wonder, therefore if the castle is now more of an earthwork, rather than bits of stonework, if you get my drift. In other words, if we're talking about some form of sculpted landscape mound, the terracing of which may reflect the buried foundations of a castle, upon which a hamlet has subsequently been built - adopting the outline of the former castle, whilst obliterating its existence.

Maybe that's why no indication on the map. Perhaps you need to be able to see it, for it to qualify, and that's why the other ruins referred to on the hill above do get shown, but this, possibly more significant structure in its time, does not.

Obviously none of the above speculation is a substitute for actually going to look at it for oneself, which I'll certainly do, in order to sate my curiosity, but that won't be for a few more months. In the meantime, Colin Boucher mentioned some photos on his posting, which would be fascinating to see.

Great thread Richard. Thanks. I have always taken a keen interest in the JV books...

Colin, who seems to know quite a lot about the area, has asked me to post some pictures of his. Thank you Colin!

Cheers guys.

Andew



And this:



And this:

Thanks Andrew for posting the photos...

The last photo taken from the main road shows the remains in amongst the buildings, these can be seen between the foreground and background poplar trees. You can also see the terracing of the mound.

One of the photos of La Vialasse was taken from on top of the castle mound. When I was last in La Vialasse staying at Le Moulin, the owner told me that it is the remains of a Cathar fort or some would say a castle.

One of the photos shows La Vialasse up the river valley in the distance. you can see the height of the rock mound/hill on which the fort/castle is built...all on the high ground.

As to its existence ...YES it is there...even though it may not be listed on a ruins map.

I will email the owner of Le Moulin to get some more info on it all to post.

Cheers

Colin Boucher

To throw to some more light on the subject...

To the direct front of the ruins on the high mountain behind from where I took the shot into the valley, and some kilometre or so away...there are huge Castle ruins which overlook the La Vialasse mound/stoneworks. Yes there is stonework at La Viallsse and I have asked Andy to post anothjer two photos which I have forwarded him...these clearly shoe the high stonework ruins.

I unbderstand from the owner of Le Moulin...that this was a subsiduary outpost fort/castle belonging to the main Cathar castle high on the mountain ridge.

Cheers

Colin Boucher

Hi All,

I have had an email reply from the owner of Le Moulin.

He tells me that the remains are built in the style of the Templars of the period of the 12/13 th Century, anyway the ruins overlooking the La Vialasse valley and the La Vialasse fort/castle from high on the hill above the valley are called either Chateau de Bezu or Chateau des Templiers.

He is going to dig up some local info and he will let me know.

On the map from a previous post...the residence at Le Moulin is shown hugging the river.

Cheers

Colin Boucher

Hi,
The boat shape you can discern is the whole of the rocky outcrop which you can see between the two rows of trees on the right hand side of the first photo Andy posted, so not the actual village itself. Le Bezu is a completely separate ruined castle high on the hill on the opposite side of the valley.
Nicole

Hi guys. Colin has asked me to post these two additional pictures:

This one:



And this one:



Cheers,

Andrew

A correspondent sent me this link:

http://www.paysdecouiza.fr/couiza/article.php3?id_article=3


The web page pointed to by the above URL includes this snippet:

"la vialasse et son vestige d’ancienne construction visighote"


This vestige of an alleged Wisigothic construction appears to be a little-known secret of the area! Certainly I was not aware of it during my few months in residence at nearby Rennes-les-Bains (although I've always been aware of the rocky mound).

And, Colin Boucher: thanks for the photos.


Regards,

David.

Thanks to all for the various responses, and especially to Colin for the photos. When I saw the first one, and then read Nicole's subsequent post pinpointing the location, it did ring a bell, and I can see it now in my mind's eye, but had no idea about the castle, until reading Lamy's book, and then starting the thread.

Funny how this seems to have generally escaped people's notice, given all the attention that's paid to the area.

Still don't quite get why it's not on the IGN map. Odd.

Did a quick - and not terribly serious - perusal of the map to see if there were any "geometric" connections to other well-known landmarks, but nothing leapt out at me.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time, though, before someone divines something!

Very interesting ladies and gentlemen.

Would I be allowed to put some of the information and photos on my website (www.rlcresearch.com) with all the proper credits and a link to this thread?

Take care | Raven

Of course it is fine by me Raven. Colin / Richard - ok with you?

I agree Raven - great thread!

Andrew

Before entering this into your database, Raven, I'd check to see if these are indeed Wisigothic constructions. Remember that the term is misapplied constantly by the local tourist boards. They look more recent than that, probably by a few centuries.

Sure, no problem. Please go ahead.

Fair point. "Wisigoth" is probably the second most mis-used term after "Cathar" in tourist board parlance. Not sure how easy this would be to check out, given that so little seems to be known about the castle. Age of materials, and form of construction, I guess.

Getting very little on google searches, however artfully I load the keywords. Got all excited for a moment yesterday when I found a link to the Aude Scientific bulletin's account of their 1906 visit to Bezu, even though I'd read this before without recalling a mention of a castle at Vialasse. As it happens, the account merely mentions the fact of the hamlet being visible from the crest of Bezu.

Will look forward to learning more, as and when.