Arcadia Discussion Zone

Think about it TCP
perhaps she is setting things up for the future
you know things pop up when least expected

Perhaps there is another different part of the story ONLY the Vatican and OTHERS know about

I remember
I believe it was Rene Barnett talking about how things are placed by people in the church
for certain shall we say announcements or revelations in the future...in place in the past waiting to be revealed

I can see his point

Hi Tim,

Im sorry but i dont agree with anything you said

When Jesus was executed, there was nothing to indicate that ANYONE was going to go and ask Pilate for the body.

Its an irrelevancy about the 'death certificate'. If its there.

But i will try and find out if the Romans did indeed practise putting certificates on dead bodies ....

This detail hints at the possibility of a different ending to the story than most are familiar with.

And what 'story' would that be? That the family of Jesus went back after a year of it being in the tomb to collect the body - and retrieved the Shroud? Ie Jesus wasnt resurrected?
They knew it was the riht body because the death certificate was on the Shroud?

The inscriptions on the shroud......hmmmm

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/guscin2.pdf

TCP WROTE

Unless of course the Romans had already tagged the body as a matter of procedure while JA was asking the Roman authorities for the body.

I'm sure anyone reading this thread would have concluded that as inevitable.



John 19: 38 And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body.

39 And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds.

40 So they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.

Very sloppy of you, Sandy.



You can keep saying so for as long as it suits you.



My money's on Frale.



Sandy, I've already laid it all out for you and there's no need in repeating it. If you can't figure out that the presence of markings on the shroud put there by the Romans contradicts the Bible narrative, you aren't open to anything other than your own predetermined conclusions.

TCP

It would appear to be well-trodden ground, with dissenting opinions even among those who agree that the inscription is there.

TCP

There is that possibility, certainly; but if true it would still contradict John 19:40 which says that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus themselves shrouded the body.

Think of the imagery of the 13th Station of the Cross, with the broken body of Jesus being lowered from the cross into his mother's arms. The Catholic Church has a lot invested in that image, I'd say too much to admit that things didn't happen quite that way. The introduction of a 1st century version of a Roman body bag and toe tag would suggest that custody of the body wasn't turned over immediately - if at all. And that could have broader possible implications on the presumed veracity of the remainder of the tale.

TCP

How do these scriptures you quoted indicate to Pilate that somebody was going to come and ask for the body?

They don't. They say that somebody DID ask Pilate for the body.

TCP

I would look into the set procedures of the time if there are any written accounts concerning tagging. I always found it strange when reading the gospels that the body of Christ was allowed to be taken down so soon after death. The Romans will have been very aware of someone pulling a scam over them and this is why they usually left the bodies for days even though the victim may have been dead after 24 hours. The breaking of the legs is another important factor too, aswell as not allowing the victim to support themselves which caused eventual asphyxiation, it will have caused internal bleeding which may have also led to death.
It has always amazed me how Jesus escaped the leg breaking and the normal duration on the cross. The crucifixion of Christ almost has an element of staging or fiction to it.
There is the very strong possibility however that Christ came from a very wealthy group who had influence both politically and financially. If so this could have influenced the decisions taken that day.

That's what I've been looking for, so far I've turned up nothing. The search continues.

TCP

yes its a strange one Frale describes the letters as traces of transferred writing and explains her findings and book in this interview. She says the inscriptions are highly reminiscent of graffiti found in the ancient Roman city of Pompeii, and in papyri from the era of Tiberius, the man who was emperor of Rome when Jesus was crucified.

http://www.saintanthonyofpadua.net/mess ... ?R=&ID=485

If you can't figure out that the presence of markings on the shroud put there by the Romans contradicts the Bible narrative, you aren't open to anything other than your own predetermined conclusions.

Whatever.

And you are wrong.

Its just that all this based on what Frale said - about a 'death certificate'.

Its a nonsense - and there is no evidence that the Romans did this.

And even more nonsense to build anything into it - whether it contradicts the Bible or not.

And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body

No chance for the Romans to put a death certificate on the Shroud then!

Very sloppy of you, Sandy


Im afraid its very sloppy of you my dear.
I know exactly what the Gospel says.

Quoting to me the Gospel of John, the latest Gospel to be written (ca. 90 -100AD) isnt that brilliant of you. Writing after the fact, 100 years later, is what is sloppy as your evidence

But the eyewitness account traces back to the Beloved Disciple you might say - why didnt he/she ask for the body? Why didnt she/he know where the tomb was? Why doesnt the Beloved Disciple refer to a death certificate?



Perhaps because after Jesus died on the Cross the body didnt go to the Romans (if you believe the Gospel ) it went to the custody of a 'follower' (not even a family member) who took it to his own private tomb. Therefore there would be no death certificate placed insitu by the Romans.

But if youre scenario worked - and the Romans put a certificate on the Shroud for the family to identify the body - how would that help - when none of the family came to claim the body, and in fact the body was given to a so called priest who was never heard of before that moment, and never heard of again after that moment

Do you think the death certificate was put on there so that when the family went hunting through all the tombs looking for where they buried Jesus - when they stumbled across Joseph of Arimatheas tomb they would know they had the right body?
After all, how many people knew where Jesus was buried?


Or are you Tim, going to posit that the Romans did get the body and put it in a tomb - and put the certificate on there?
Ahh i know, Pilate wasnt a big meanie and he took care of the body of Jesus, because he knew he was the Son of God - and his family were coming back for him?
He was helping them out?

What, all on the say so of Frale saying the alleged writing on the Shroud is a 'kind of death certificate????

Classic

Oh never mind, wasted conversation, no one will ever know the truth.

Do you ever worry about how your own biases affect your supposedly objective "research"? Maybe that's why you never seem to get anywhere with it...

TCP

Maybe that's why you never seem to get anywhere with it

Oh yeh, i forgot, you know all the answers.

NOT.

My point PRECISELY. Don't tell me you're actually vouching for the veracity of the Gospels you hold in such contempt?!

TCP

I know a helluva lot more than you do, Night Nurse!

TCP

I know a helluva lot more than you do

You carry on thinking that if it helps you

Don't tell me you're actually vouching for the veracity of the Gospels you hold in such contempt?!

I dont hold them in contempt, they are just not reliable historical documents.

But hey, if you think they are

So what, Secretary! Them's fighting words.

Luke 23:

50 And behold, there was a man named Joseph, a council member, and he was a good man and a just.
51 He was of Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who himself also waited for the Kingdom of God.
52 This man went unto Pilate and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulcher that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

Matthew 27:

57 When the evening had come, there came a rich man of Arimathea named Joseph, who himself also was Jesus' disciple.
58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth
60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher and departed.

Mark 15:

43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

Now, what were you saying about there being NOTHING in the Gospels about ANYONE asking Pilate for the body of Jesus? And you have the unmitigated gall to claim you know "exactly what the Gospel says"...? You're not just sloppy, Sandy, you're an out-and-out FRAUD.



Who gives a shit? A more pertinent question is how fast and how long you can keep bobbing and weaving?



Amazing how you segue back and forth between veracity and non-veracity of the Gospel narratives whenever it suits your purpose. I'm not playing your mindgames anymore, Sandy, but for the edification of anyone else reading this:

There is no mention of a "death certificate" in any of the Gospel narratives, and all four agree that Joseph of Aritmathea took custody of the body, wrapped it in a linen shroud himself, and placed it in his own tomb.

However, Barbara Frale writes that an inscription on the Shroud of Turin which had been first noted as far back as 1978 names the deceased and fixes a date for his execution. Furthermore, she states that this practice of marking the burial shroud thusly was employed by the Roman authorities at this time because the bodies of the condemned/executed weren't turned over to their relatives or claimants for a full year.

The presence of such a label on the Shroud of Turin could possibly indicate that the Gospel narratives are incorrect or incomplete, i.e. that the body was not shrouded by Joseph of Arimathea as all four Gospels indicate. And if this detail is incorrect, there is no reason to conclude that any other detail of this particular point of reference is absolutely correct. This assumes, of course, that the Shroud of Turin IS what many purport it to be, and not a later fabrication.

In short, it opens the narrative up for further examination. That's all.



It seems to be pretty clear to me that if the Shroud is genuine, and if the inscription is original, that the Gospel accounts may in fact be fiction. I'm surprised that you're arguing so strenuously that they must be accurate, you're usually the one to nay-say Biblical historicity and veracity at any given opportunity.



Or how about Jesus was executed in the proscribed manner by Roman authorities and his body was thrown in a ditch for a year like other victims? Note that the verbiage translated by Frale makes no mention whatsoever of Pontius Pilate, but rather states that the deceased was executed on the say of an unnamed Roman judge?



Your disdain for academics is almost as virulent as your disdain for Catholics. I know you're desperate to cast any aspersions you can on Barbara Frale, but I think I'd put more stock in a trained professional who actually has access to documents and artifacts that you never will.



Lucky for you, otherwise you might have to take up another hobby!

TCP

David


Yes David and there is in scripture a basis for this and it has to do with the number 22

David


A great point...Romans were efficient in their work of killing and burying

Tingra
thanks for that interesting link on the Shroud
lots of interesting revelations of which I had not heard about
such as Saint Louis IX had involvement with a shroud with Baldwin

and this all came to light in 1979 that is along time seems similiar to the Dead Sea Scrolls
and I'm sure father Dubois was unbiased in his findings

Maybe there is a death certificate alleged in Scriptures

“Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” (Jn. 19:19)

but it may not be Nazareth as the Gospel says
it may say Nazarene

this painting becomes more significant


It seems some people may have known about this long ago