Arcadia Discussion Zone

The other proposition is just as absurd? Roger, they aren't even in the same ballpark, that is my point!
If for some reason the Resurrection did prove to be true, the two propositions still wouldn't be in the same ballpark.
You are comparing a physical possibility to a physical impossibilty.

What I'm decrying is their inability to see that the other proposition

Roger, what is the other proposition? Just to be clear, so i can understand you please ....i may have misunderstood, but i assume you talk in the context of the Shroud?

Forgive me if i have misconstrued this ....

this is the crux of it Sandy

amongst other things that all contribute to the negative impression I get of you. I won't be so immature as to state what these are and neither is this meant to be a "dig" at you. I am just telling you what I think.

... using a piece of cloth and an adapted form of a camera obscura, methinx, and there you got the hocus pocus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera_obscura

Camera Obscura means "dark vaulted chamber." What does that have to do with...oh, wait...

Davidho


Davidho


I like that definition
In my research I have found one interesting fact
that the Templars were the protectors, transporters, and guardians
of certain relics

that is documented

Any freemasons here? I do have a question about Baphomet
and the tilted star can you explain its meaning to freemasonry?




The Baphomet of Lévi was to become an important figure within the cosmology of Thelema, the mystical system established by Aleister Crowley in the early twentieth century. Baphomet features in the Creed of the Gnostic Catholic Church recited by the congregation in The Gnostic Mass, in the sentence: "And I believe in the Serpent and the Lion, Mystery of Mystery, in His name BAPHOMET."[50]

In Magick (Book 4), Crowley asserted that Baphomet was a divine androgyne and "the hieroglyph of arcane perfection":

The Devil does not exist. It is a false name invented by the Black Brothers to imply a Unity in their ignorant muddle of dispersions. A devil who had unity would be a God... 'The Devil' is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes... This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil; He bade 'Know Thyself!' and taught Initiation. He is 'The Devil' of the Book of Thoth, and His emblem is BAPHOMET, the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection... He is therefore Life, and Love. But moreover his letter is ayin, the Eye, so that he is Light; and his Zodiacal image is Capricornus, that leaping goat whose attribute is Liberty.[51]

Eliphas Lévi, born Alphonse Louis Constant, (February 8, 1810 - May 31, 1875) was a French occult author and purported magician.[1]

"Eliphas Lévi," the name under which he published his books, was his attempt to translate or transliterate his given names "Alphonse Louis" into Hebrew although he was not Jewish.

His second wife was French sculptress Marie-Noémi Cadiot.

There seems in the picture of a Freemasons ritual which is connected to the Templars of whom was accused of worshiping

I'm not a Freemason, but their symbolic meaning for the inverted pentagram is the same as it is in other occult systems. When the pentagram points up it refers to spiritual energies; when it points down, to temporal energies.

And no, "temporal" doesn't refer to Templars.

TCP

The Pentagram of Venus
http://youtu.be/fFDBeTdPKig

Our sisters of the Eastern Star utilize a Pentagram as their primary symbol. Interestingly, their usage places the pentagram “upside down,” with two points on top and a single point facing down. According to esoteric tradition, this usage indicates the “evil” forces of darkness. The occult authority Eliphas Levi writes in Transcendental Magic:



The Pentagram with two horns in the ascendant represents Satan, or the goat of the Sabbath, and with the single horn in the ascendant is the sign of the Savior. It is the figure of the human body with the four members and a point representing the head; a human figure head downward naturally represents the demon, that is, intellectual subversion, disorder and folly.



As to whether the author of the Easter Star rituals was aware of these qualities when designing the emblem of the rite is most likely unknown. A contemporary member of the Eastern Star has informed us that the explanation of the symbol she received attributes the two points as facing towards the east, providing an unobstructed channel from the altar to the Eastern dais, as well as creating a confined center or “chamber” in the east that is formed between the two extended points and the dais. All Masons would be familiar with the idea of having the path from the Altar to the East clear at all times, and this may in fact be the most probable reason for the design.

The symbol of the pentagram appears on many Knights Templar graves in France, as well as being intrinsic to the architecture and positioning of many chapels. One dramatic example is the mysterious shrine of Rennes du Chartres, said to be a center of Templar activity, which is situated in the center of a ring of mountains that form a nearly perfect pentagram.



http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/pentagram_freemasonry.html

The symbolism of the Western Mystery tradition has assigned the four elements of earth, air, water and fire to the four points of the pentagram, with the top point being attributed to the quintessence, or spirit. From this pattern is then attributed Kabalistic hierarchies of Archangles (Auriel for Earth, Raphael to Air, Gabriel for Water, and Michael with Fire), the Four Worlds (Assiah, Yetzirah, Briah and Atziluth), parts of the soul,

Lov., you're dabbling in those loopy American sites again, the article is pure crappola with respect to what most Masons would consider "proper" Freemasonry.
BTW, I agree with Roger if drink is also a problem.

well boys answer the question
what is the tilted pentagram mean ...to a freemason

Not drinking just wonderin

I can tell you in Texas we have them all over the place

order of the Eastern Star but I have seen it on medals of generals

"We have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him'" (Matthew 2:2).

Notice the 22

It refers to the star, Sirius,
Albert Pike
"To find in the BLAZING STAR of five points an allusion to Divine Providence is fanciful; and to make it commemorative of the Star that is said to have guided the Magi, is to give it a meaning comparatively modern. Originally, it represented Sirius, or the Dog-star, the forerunner of the inundation of the Nile…"

The inverted pentacle with a goat's head is called the sigil of Baphomet. The term may have come from two Greek words, baphe and metis, meaning "absorption of knowledge." It has also been called the Black Goat, Devil's Goat, Goat Head, Goat of Mendes, and Judas Goat. Its first appearance appears to have been during the vicious interrogation of members of the Knights Templar by the Christian Inquisition.

http://www.satanic-kindred.org/pentahistory.htm

What does it mean...? Nothing. Nil. Zero.
The Order of the Eastern Star is not, nor recognised by mainstream Freemasonry.

The Order of the Eastern Star is a fraternal organization that both men and women can join. It was established in 1850 by Rob Morris, a lawyer and educator from Boston, Massachusetts, who had been an official with the Freemasons

It has approximately 10,000 chapters in twenty countries and approximately 500,000 members under its General Grand Chapter. Members of the Order are aged 18 and older; men must be Master Masons and women must have specific relationships with Masons. Originally, a woman would have to be the daughter, widow, wife, sister, or mother of a master Mason, but the Order now allows other relatives[2] as well as allowing Job's Daughters, Rainbow Girls, Members of the Organization of Triangle (NY only) and members of the Constellation of Junior Stars (NY only) to become members when they become of age.

The emblem of the Order is a five-pointed star with the white ray of the star pointing downwards towards the manger. In the Chapter room, the downward-pointing white ray points to the West. The character-building lessons taught in the Order are stories inspired by Biblical figures:


Adah (Jephthah's daughter, from Judges)
Ruth, the widow
Esther, the wife
Martha (sister of Lazarus, from the Gospel of John)
Electa (the "elect lady", from II John), the mother
It is interesting they didn't pick Mary Magdalene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EasternStarSpokaneWA.jpg

The General Grand Chapter headquarters, the International Temple, is located in the Dupont Circle neighborhood of Washington, D.C., in the former Perry Belmont Mansion. The mansion was built in 1909 for the purpose of entertaining the guests of Perry Belmont. This included Britain's Prince of Wales in 1919. General Grand Chapter purchased the building in 1935. The secretary of General Grand Chapter lives there while serving his or her term of office. The mansion features works of art from around the world, most of which were given as gifts from various international Eastern Star chapters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Eastern_Star

There does seem to be a link with Masons...these are wives daughters of Masons

We are talking about the Templar charges of worshipping Baphomet
and we see the greek words

The term may have come from two Greek words, baphe and metis, meaning "absorption of knowledge."
It has also been called the Black Goat, Devil's Goat, Goat Head, Goat of Mendes, and Judas Goat. Its first appearance appears to have been during the vicious interrogation of members of the Knights Templar by the Christian Inquisition.

Is the charge of worshipping Bapjomet in the Frale documents?
Baphomet could be a corruption of the Arabic "abufihamet" meaning "wisdom" or "father of wisdom". They seemed to worship Baphomet in the form of a idol head.

Now here is a question of which I kinda know the answer already
but lets go here
the Templars formed Gnostic Brotherhoods along with Islamic Mystics;
I believe this is true

rom The Theosophical Glossary: "A medieval mystic term usually identified with the goat of Mendes. The Templars of Malta were accused of worshiping Baphomet as an idol. Baphomat signifies a baptism in wisdom or initiation, but became degraded and misunderstood when the keys to its real meaning were lost." The symbol of the Baphomet is related to Arcanum 15: Passion, as explained in The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah. The term "baphomet" hides a message when read backwards: Tem-o-h-p-ab, which is the symbol of the Latin words Templi ommun hominum pacis abbas, which means "The Father of the temple of universal peace for men." See Typhon.

Typhon Baphomet (Egyptian) An aspect or shadow of Osiris. Typhon is not an “evil principle” or “Satan,” but is rather the lower cosmic principle of the divine body of Osiris, being the shadow of Him. In the Book of the Dead, he is described as being one who “steals reason from the soul.”

Roger


Whatch smokin there Roger ....these good little Christian girls couldn't read the relationship all written in the bible about Magdalene and Jesus? ....its right there to read...Magdalene didn't do the dishes but decided to sit at Jesus's feet and listen to his private teachings just to her. Homemaker verses dawdling learning ....hmmmm

Martha is a good homemaker and good sister to Lazarus....good choice ...she did doubt Jesus didn't she if I remember
She didn't believe Lazarus would rise from the dead on Jesus's command but Magdalene did
Interesting

I think the Magdalene prostitute thing didn't sit well with the prominent ladies...Martha was a better choice
Your right No Magheads there

I do understand Freemasons take oaths to protect the order and brotherhood
and take oaths not divulge the secret teachings

I am not under that obligation but I see others are
and abide by their oaths

if they do break their oaths
they are cast out

Roger, you continue to belittle anybody who does not agree with you. There was one person who annointed Jesus to be the Christ (read King), and that was Mary of Bethany aka, Mary Magdalene, at least according to scripture. Now that is the way I read it, if you see it differently so be it. If you want to rekindle the discussion on the subject, thats ok also.

Or maybe the good Protestant ladies of the Eastern Star didn't conflate Mary Magdalene with Mary of Bethany to begin with.

I'd be interested in knowing what verses tell of Mary Magdalene shirking cleaning duties in the house of Lazarus and his sisters. Or which verses give substantial detail about the relationship of Magdalene and Jesus. The New Testament I'm familiar with doesn't give a lot of information beyond the fact that she bankrolled Jesus and his disciples, had seven devils cast out of her, and was the first witness to the Resurrection.

TCP

Bill, can you please provide specific quotes from the scripture you have that says Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany are the same person, and that Mary Magdalene ever anointed Jesus? Because we could settle a lot of this controversy right now if someone - anyone - from your side of the argument would just share your sources. And don't rely on the now-discarded doctrine of the RCC that you all bash for conflating Magdalene with the anointing "sinner" in Luke while stubbornly insisting that the other side of that same conflation, Magdalene with Mary of Bethany, is 100% valid.

TCP

...in Western Australia.

"For a long period, Grand Lodges generally, including our own in Victoria, placed a ban on Freemasons associating in any way with the order. But, today, the United Grand Lodge of Victoria and many other Grand Lodges have removed the bans, and now recognise the Eastern Star as a worthy community organisation alongside such bodies as Red Cross, Legacy, Carry On, etc. Freemasons are now permitted to associate with the order in a private capacity.

The change of approach from the Masonic side has been adopted by all Australian Masonic jurisdictions, excepting Western Australia, where brethren are still banned from any association with the order."

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/o ... sonry.html

By the way, I'm not sure it's quite fair to describe that site as either "loopy" or "American." It looks to me like it actually contains a broad range of material, representing many different viewpoints, from around the world.

Thank you Caelum

there IS a CONNECTION to the TEMPLARS with FREEMASONS
it is WRITTEN on their websites
maybe historians say No ...but the organization and MEMBERS ...in the tens to hundred of thousands
are well aware of the myth and the CONNECTiON

We are in the line of what people believe...what people take oaths and why people took these oaths in secret

the Templars were Heretics because of worshiping the Head (Skull) Wisdom
But yes there is Rodger documentation that suggests Templars had a connection with islamic mystics
Baphomet could be a corruption of the Arabic "abufihamet" meaning "wisdom" or "father of wisdom".



It is interesting that Mary of Bethany wasn't picked ....the lady seated at Jesus feet who didn't do the dishes but learned her private lesson

they chose Martha the doubter and good house cleaner

Mary of Bethany believed him....Nor if you believe Magdalene is different the woman who saw him crucified and Resurrected

No Martha

and the Topper is
Mother Mary isn't picked either the Mother of Mothers

No they picked Martha

interesting

Rodger ....I do understand the argument that Freemasons don't understand your history
It seems their myth or their legend ...they have tried to convince their constituents
that the Templars played a part in their history

I get it
the whole thing is a myth

but many Freemasons believe this myth and are conducting rituals and giving levels names
Its on the Scottish Rites stairs
http://www.bilderberg.org/msteps1.jpg
at the very top is ORDER OF THE KNIGHT TEMPLAR
and interesting enough Leo XIII deemed it necessary to ban Catholics from being of the order

De Molay would have to smile when he saw United States with so many Freemasons signing the Declaration of Independence
for Religious freedom

Do you see the Power of Myth and Legend?
The Templars Myth continues

The Goat of Mendes
The Goat of Mendes
Ptah the Egyptian God of Magick, knowledge and wisdom (an alias of Satan) *became* the goat, and sometimes a ram in the city of Mendes where he was worshipped as such. The Goat/Ram of Mendes represented the "Ba" which was the Egyptian word for the "soul." Ptah was considered to be a great magician and "Lord of the Serpents."¹

Goat (Capricorn) is the time of the winter solstice, known as "The Southern Gate of the Sun."

“The Goat was known in early Babylonian times as the God ‘Ea

Ea was known as ‘He of vast intellect and Lord of the Sacred Eye’ protector of his people and the bringer and giver of knowledge and civilization to humanity. Represented as a snake, he ended up in the ‘Garden of Eden as the Snake in the tree of life, encouraging learning and knowledge rather than blissful ignorance.’ Whenever Ea roamed the Earth, he took the form of a goat. Ea was considered the Father of Light" and his celebrations dating back to 15,000 B.C.E., were carried out wearing goat skins.


Egyptian ammon Mendes

Amun was the chief of the Egyptian Gods. He was identified with the accomplishments of the Pharoahs, after the defeat of the Hyksos rulers of Egypt. The Hyksos rulers were viewed as oppressors of the people, therefore Amun was known as the protector of the poor and less fortunate. The Pharoahs built lavish temples in his honor. Eventually, Amun became identified with Ra, the sun God, and thus became known as Amun-Ra.

he word Amun or Ammon comes from the Egyptian amoni meaning 'shepherd' or 'to feed.' Or, it may have meant "the hidden."