Arcadia Discussion Zone

Patrice`s Girona trek of initiation seemed to have many Cathar elements to it.

Thats an interesting observation Roger, can you help us with what differentiates one from t'other in this context?
Many thanks
TD

Roger, Thomas asked a valid question in a non-confrontational manner. Do you think you might offer a valid answer by way of reply, without the confrontational posture?

TCP

It was a simple question Roger, politely phrased, nothing more nothing less. Your statement suggested that you know there's a difference in tthe Cathar context between soul and spirit. I used the word 'us' because I suspect that I'm not the only person here who doesn't understand this subtle distinction in Cathar thought.
I'm saddened but not entirely suprised that someone of your urbanity and erudition has reduced themselves to the
inarticulation of F-U that others have.
As to the notion of my 'prodigious posterior', isnt that a bit infantile or have you embraced the current Forum zeitgeist for rear jokes?
If you don't want to explain, just say so!

TD

Pierre Clergue wasn’t the only one using his power as a weapon, or dipping his wick every which way

Arnaud de Verniolles, was a member of a prominent and powerful Pamiers family, his testimony was deeply damaging to the credibility of the local clergy and was the reason that Fournier unscrupulously twisted the evidence to fit heresy. Arnaud had been seduced as a student in a dormitory by an older boy who went on to become a priest, when Arnaud went to Toulouse to train as a minorite he in turn seduced a child whom he was teaching and for this paedophile offence he was jailed at the Minorites convent in Mirepox. Arnauds inside view of monastic life was that its acolytes were most adept at sodomy and masturbation and he admitted that he could not go for more than eight days without having sex with either a man or woman. After a bad experience with a prostitute he turned to men exclusively.

Deposition of Guillaume Rous concerning Arnaud de Verniolle.

This year, around the feast of the Ascension, it was raining. I don't remember precisely the exact time. I was at the school which is in front of the convent of the Carmelites at Pamiers. Arnaud de Verniolle came toward me and told me that if I went with him, he would give me a writing tablet. We went together to a house which is close to the convent of the Minorites at Pamiers. When we arrived there Arnaud took from a chest four tablets he wanted to give me, but I refused them because they were not good. Then Arnaud closed the door of the house and in a room with a bed, he lay down on the bed with his clothes on and asked me to lie close to him, which I did. There Arnaud committed the crime of sodomy while we were lying on our sides.

Theres loads more here for anyone interested…..
http://mw.mcmaster.ca/scriptorium/fournier.html

he even posed as a priest and said mass and heard confession, he later explained that he wanted to know if others committed the same sins as he did. The impersonation of a priest was a serious offence and was compounded by the fact that Arnaud absolved people from sin

As the subject of the dead has cropped up I thought I would post this, its hilarious and outlined in the book in greater detail, everything about this village/area and its inhabitants is truly a remarkable insight into everyday life and the wierd and wonderful characters involved in the inquisition

Testimony by Arnaud Gélis

One year and a half ago, I was on the road which leads from Foix to Pamiers. I was speaking to Guillaume of Arignac from Pamiers who was already dead , asking him how he was doing. While we were speaking, his wife also appeared. I asked her what her grand-daughters were doing, and her son's three daughters who died in their childhood, because her son Raimond of Arignac wanted to know it. She answered that she did not see them after their burial because they went directly to their rest, as it is usual for all baptised children when they die before their seventh year. I asked her what happens to children who were not baptized. She told me that they are sent in a dark place where they don't suffer any pain but don't receive any good. They will stay there until the Last Judgment. From this day I believed that after the Judgment [...] all the children who were not baptized and all reasonable creatures will be saved thanks to Jesus Christ's great mercy, so that nobody will die.

For seven years, I have often seen the souls of many dead people in different places, during the day when I was wide awake. They enter churches and spend the whole night there. Then leaving the church in the morning, they wander through the roads, especially if the weather is fine, and they go to other churches where they must spend the following night.
Souls from Pamiers and surroundings usually spend Saturday nights in Saint-Antonin church. I have heard many of the dead say that they greatly regretted that they had not been buried in Saint-Antonin church. The dead used to go to their parish church more often than to other churches, and to the cemetery where their bodies rest. These dead wear clothes made from white linen, except monks who wear the habit of their Order, as they did during their lives. Lay people don't have anything on their heads. The dead have the same form and features as during their life.

They do penance in different churches, as we said. Some move faster than others because those who are condemned to a greater penance must go faster. Usurers run as fast as the wind. Those who have a lesser penance walk slower. The only one who got another sort of penance than this kind of movement, was Pierre Durand who was condemned to suffer the fire of Purgatory. When the dead have accomplished their visits to churches, they go to the Place of Rest where, according to what they told me, they will stay until the Judgement. This is what I believe since they told me that. But I don't know how nor where the Place of Rest is because they never revealed that to me. I believe, however, that it is on earth. After the Judgment, God will call them to His heavenly kingdom. The young and strong dead walk with difficulty. It is even more difficult for those who died in old age: they stumble and fall on the ground, they cannot get back on their feet again without the help of their friends or acquaintances. Those who don't know them walk over them without caring to help them.
These dead are happy when their friends have masses celebrated for them, or when they burn oil in the lamps of the churches where they were parishioners because it pleases God and they seem to feel better. [...]

I have heard many dead say that they take great pleasure in visiting their small grandchildren occasionally, if they are baptized. Three or four years ago I saw my mother-in-law, Raimonde, visiting my son Raimond who is now six or seven years old. She hugged and kissed him with these words: "God give you honesty and His grace", and she disappeared immediately.

Once some dead ordered me to say something to their friends. When I did not obey, they manhandled my body, violently stabbing me with a stick. Pons Bru stabbed me this way near the leper's house. Usually I see the dead and I talk to them in the morning after mass. I had a second cousin called Raimonde, daughter of Pons Hugon of the Force near Fanjeaux who, as she often told me, used to see dead men and women and talked to them. Sometimes, she said, she left her father's house for three or four days in order to go with the dead. When she returned home, as I saw, she was grieving and sad. She told me that she had seen La Rousse, my dead mother, who had told her that after her death, when she was washed, the good veil she had on her head had been removed and replaced with a bad one. She asked me to send her a good veil. The cousin told me also that she had seen my dead father, Raimond Gélis, who had told her that, when he was still alive he owed three bushels(?) of wheat that he asked me to return. I believed what this cousin was telling me: I gave a good veil to a poor woman and I distributed three bushels of wheat for God's love.

Since I have seen that the souls of dead men and women have their bodies and all the limbs they had when they were alive, I think that all the souls, either within the body or outside, have features such as eyes, ears, nostrils, and all the other limbs, just as they were during their lives.

The dead like clean places and visit clean houses. They don't want to go in dirty places or enter dirty houses.

He told me that he had seen the souls of two damoiseaux who were suffering a great pain. They were riding horses while stabbing themselves. Their souls fell from the horses then remounted. [...] He told me that dead souls are more beautiful than their body was during their life, but that they have features similar to those they had when they were alive. Around Midsummer's Day, he told me that the day after All Saint's Day my mother's soul would go to her rest. After All Saint's Day he told me also that she was at rest and that he would not see her again. I told her: "Will she not soon be in Paradise?" He said that would not be before the Judgment Day.

[...] Mengarde asked Arnaud, in my presence, in which condition was the soul of Barcelone, Pons Fauré's widow. He answered that she was in a bad situation because her arm was burnt at the very places where she had worn silk.

He [Arnaud Pascal] told a woman called my lady Serres that he had seen her dead husband who asked him to tell her to behave properly, and that she would have a good husband. I found that Arnaud was a liar and a joker because it is impossible to see a husband wanting his wife to remarry.

Don't worry tim, it was a genuine question asked on behalf of all those who, like me weren't aware of the difference.
I'm not convinced that 'Roger' is psychic so I can only assume he's guessing about what I'm thinking. Either way I suspect that none of us would get an honest answer anyway, at least not to a straight question.
Sorry to have bothered the thread in this instance.
TD

So, getting back to the subject

In his book the Rise, IBJ asks the question “ is it possible that the monasteries that donated money to our Priest in his account books, or some of the people living in them, retained some “memories” of the past heresies and is it possible that Catharism was still alive and still had some followers inside some of the convents that had played a role in the heresy several centuries before?”

I don’t mean neo cathars or any airy fairy new age stuff, I mean is it possible that the original concept of Catharism was still alive as an underground religion in Sauniers time and did he and other priests in the area latch onto this as a way to make money?

I came across the Lollards and Hussites recently on a trip to Prague and although I knew about them before I had not until then really compared them with the Cathars

When the king of Bohemia married an English princess, the Lollard ideas passed to that country, then one of the most enlightened in Europe, and, by the preaching of John Hus, a large part of the nation embraced and developed them. The Hussites scorned the corrupt priests, monks, and nuns, attacked clerical celibacy, confession, the eucharist, and the ritual. Two hundred years of war and savage persecution were needed to suppress them. At one time, most of the nobles of Bohemia were Hussites.

This article is interesting, it merges the Cathars with various other sects including the Lollards and its worth reading in its entirety IMHO

Here,s a brief extract…..

The Lollards.

Their name, though, is not English. Before they appeared in England, the Lollards were well known in Germany and Flanders, and an explanation of their name is that it is from the low German verb “lollen” meaning “mumble”. The Flemish Beghards were called “lollards” because of their habit of muttering their prayers to themselves constantly. Du Cange adds that “they called the Lollard also a Waldensian”. Sir John Oldcastle, later Lord Cobham when he took his wife’s entitlement, was called “Lollardus”.

In 1401, after Henry IV had usurped the throne (1399) and the fallout had settled, Parliament enacted De heretico comburendo, reinforced in further enactments of 1405 and 1414, decreeing that heretics and anyone in possession of heretical writings, who refused to abjure or relapsed after doing so, were to be burnt by the lay authorities. Undoubtedly, the king knew he could use the new law against his political opponents, heretics or not.

Lollardy offered a religious justification for the uprisings of the desperately poor in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The Oldcastle case was used to inspire a fear of heresy and a conviction that Lollardy was conspiratorial. Oldcastle was a friend of Henry, the prince of Wales, who became Henry V, and this saved him from prosecution when he was first accused of heresy. Shortly afterwards, when even the new king could not prevent a prosecution, he was found guilty, but Henry ordered a forty day stay of execution in the hope of finding a way out. Lollardus escaped from the Tower in this time and set up a Lollard conspiracy in which, most interestingly, the king and his brothers were to be seized during a Twelfth Night mumming at Eltham. The plot failed but Lollardus remained free and conspiring in rebellion for four years until he was captured and hanged in 1417, “the gallows and all” being burnt. The Pattishall riot in 1387, the South Yorkshire disturbances in 1392, and the 1400-1405 Welsh uprising of Owen Glyn Dwr were all linked to the Lollards, and, according to Doris Haddock, they were later said to have been involved in the Southampton plot of 1415, and attacks by the Scottish on Berwick and Roxborough in 1417.

Wycliff’s heresy—he was at first supported by his university and the nobles—was really a return to primitive Christianity—Essenism. It took such root in England that, in the middle of the fourteenth century, one-tenth of the nation, some historians estimate, were Lollards. Du Cange said, from a chronicle of 1318, heretics “hid themselves in many parts of the English kingdom”, contradicting the view that heresy was alien to England. This heresy paid the typical penalty of being true to Christ.

Vasilev concludes:

The spiritual kinship between the Lollards and Waldensians directs our attention to the roots of the Waldensian doctrine which lie in Catharism. In fact, Waldo adopts from the Cathars their social vision and organisational model but abandons their complicated dualist mythology.

Vasilev sees a similarity of doctrines in the writings of the Lollards and in the evidence of the Norwich heresy trials (1428-31), and those of the Cathars or Bogomils.

The nineteenth century scholar, J v Görres, says Cathars were also known by such names as Patarini and Piphlers, Beghards and Lollards. It might seem unlikely that doctrines separated by four centuries and a thousand miles could be linked. M D Lambert in his Medieval Heresy.

Popular Movements from Bogomil to Hus (1977) thought Cathars used stereotypical aphorisms to initiate a novice that were, even so, adapted, changed and interpreted for different situations. Their use shows a common thread or influence rather than identical meanings, and though Christians will not accept any such influences on their revealed religion, the historian and common sensical people know they are there. The anger of the Bogomils, Cathars and Lollards generated a vivid language which travelled almost unchanged across countries and centuries and was later used by the Protestants in their discourse with Rome.

Vasilev shows the myths and beliefs of the Lollards were in the Bogomil-Cathar tradition:

1. Beliefs and myths—the fall of Lucifer, Satan as creator and ruler of the visible world, denial of hell and purgatory,
2. ritual practices—baptism in the Holy Spirit, preference for the Pater Noster, direct confession to God, denial of Transubstantiation,
3. anti-clericalism—the official Church is a community of Herod or the Anti-Christ, Church buildings are synagogues, cross-roads or wastelands,
4. denial of the cross and crucifix, of icons (images) and relics of saints,
5. refusal to worship the Virgin and the saints,
6. denial of social norms—legal authority and oath taking, condemnation of bloodshed, effective rejection of the feudal system.


The coincidences can be enriched even further.

The appellation “good men” (boni homini), “good Christians” (boni christiani), the title of the Perfecti, the spiritual leaders of the Bogomils and Cathars, “is unique in the whole spectrum of medieval heresies and is typical only of the dualists” (Vasilev). Yet, in the records of the Norwich heresy trials “every good man or good woman is a priest”. “Also that every good Christian man is a priest” also appears, and certain variants, and they also speak of some people being “the most holy and most perfect”. Wycliffe confirms this in Conclusiones Lollardorum. Sometimes what was likely to have been “good man” is expanded upon by the recorders either because they did not realise it was the heretics’ name for themselves, and they sought a little literary variation, or because the heretic had sought to explain what he meant by it:

Lollards were like the Cathars in encouraging reading by setting up reading circles. The inquisitors used possesion of the testaments in the vernacular, or even evidence of it as proof of heresy, because the Church forbade it.

Vasilev concludes:

These almost perfect coincidences and astonishing similarities point to the common roots of Bogomilism and Lollardy. Yet, it is surprising that given the well-studied problem concerning the views and beliefs of Lollards, there has been no attempt to trace down their Bogomil-Cathar roots.

http://91.198.165.171/~askwhyco/christi ... Spirit.php
http://www.bogomilism.eu/Studies/Bogomi ... lards.html

Actually, this is quite similar to todays "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" (Jehovah's Witnesses).

OK, back up - what king of Bohemia married what English princess before or concurrent with Jan Hus' ministry?



Which is pretty much true of any and all reform movements at that time, so I'm not clear on why these point directly to the Cathars.



That's a bit misleading, there wasn't a constant state of war and/or persecution lasting two hundred years. There was an often uneasy truce between Catholics and Hussites (and over time, other Protestant creeds) in Bohemia from 1436 to 1620 when Catholicism was re-established as the official religion, but by that time the Hussites were a minority among the various Protestant churches in Bohemia.



Interesting, perhaps, in its inventiveness; but as far as accuracy goes, I'd have to say the credibility is more than a bit strained.



Vasilev negates his own proposition here. The roots of Waldensian doctrine lie in Catharism, but not in Catharist doctrine. That's tantamount to saying I was for it before I was against it. The Waldenses never "abandoned" the Cathars' dualist mythology, they never adopted it to begin with.



If Vasilev wasn't trying to make such a narrow point of reference he might see "similarity of doctrines" with countless other reform movements as well, most of which rejected the very notions of Cathar dualism.



Forget about the miles and centuries, these doctrines ought not to be linked period. The Patarins especially, that's a favorite claim of modern neo-Catharists that holds no water at all.



Yeah, that "common thread or influence" is called anticlerical reform and the commonality pretty much ends there.



The fall of Lucifer and the denial of purgatory, yes; the rest, false. Lollards believed that the souls of the dead go immediately to either heaven of hell, there was no middle ground.



Denial of Transubstatiation, but embrace of Consubstantiation, which would have been just as unacceptable to Cathars.



Pretty much all reform movements embraced anticlericalism.



Yes, iconoclasm and rejection of intermediaries for intercession - again, not unique to Cathars, but widespread among reform movements.



All common beliefs in reform movements. Doesn't show "connection" to Cathars per se.



Oh, I'm sure of that!



Baloney.



Probably because there has never been a reason for it - because it isn't accurate.

TCP

Oh I haven't the time or the energy to argue with that lot
Thanks for taking the time to put me right though

Precisely, that was my point, perhaps I didn't make that point clear enough:

"Vasilev negates his own proposition here. The roots of Waldensian doctrine lie in Catharism, but not in Catharist doctrine. That's tantamount to saying I was for it before I was against it. The Waldenses never "abandoned" the Cathars' dualist mythology, they never adopted it to begin with."

My second sentence is not a statement of fact, it is Vasilev's proposition. I am, in fact, taking issue with Vasilev's proposition. I do not consider the Waldenses' doctrine to have roots in Catharism, I believe Vasilev is dead wrong on that assertion.



Yes, precisely. Waldensians, Lollards, Hussites, Patarins, Beguines - these were reformist movements that nonetheless held to proscribed trinitarianism in some form. Catharism was an entirely different animal.

TCP

Yep so in hindsight it's a duff article

I'll have to go back and reread some books/articles to be able to give accurate quotes but in response to several comments:

The difference between the soul and the spirit for Cathars:

The soul is born into a body (and reincarnate, it is believed by some) while the spirit exists as a potential but does not exist within the person until they are consoled. The first consolation (of which we have records of the ceremony and which were publically performed) was to reach that spirit so it could develop.
Cathars held that Christ existed to teach this, how to bring others into a spirtual state (rather than living only through their soul) and that is what they were dedicated to.
If someone were near death, the consolamentum would, in a sense, open a door between the soul and the Divine (for lack of a better word right now). It would be the work of the parfait to keep that door open until the person had died, which is why they might require the endura.

About the possible inheritors of Cathar traditions:

Philippe Roy, who has written on Cathars ("Les Cathares, Histoire et Spiritualite") and the Consolamentum as well a "L'hermétisme - philosophie et tradition" (and who has a new book coming out, "L'Eglise Cathare") lives between Montferrier and Montsegur and opened his home to a group from the Club Cathares several years ago.
He answered questions from members of the group, or enlarged on certain subjects when asked by the club's founder, Philippe Contal.
One question I remember was if were possible for a new Cathar religion to arise. He was quite firm in stating that with the death of the last parfait, that specific faith was lost to the world. One cannot decide to become a parfait and follow whatever rituals one might find records of; without an existing parfait, there can be no valid ritual of consolamentum, and so no progress beyond that.

There were other branches of dualism which were active in the northern part of France (and what is now Belgium. It could be that it was those influences which carried on since there was more trade from those areas to other parts of Europe.
I would suggest reading "The Other God: Dualist Religions from Antiquity to the Cathar Heresy" by Yuri Stoyanov, worth the reading for history and background beyond that one usually finds.

For any of you who have been to RLC, you have seen the Aude river flowing down from the mountains. Past Quillan, past Axat, through two defiles (St Georges and something de Lys) where the road has been carved out of solid rock---and the road isn't all that wide still, one heads uprivers toward another Cathar castle, Chateau d'Usson. It, like the others, is a ruin, but more accessible. It is supposed to be where those who escaped from Montsegur took the 'treasure' before heading to Spain and on to Italy.
What isn't noted in most guides and histories is that before you reach Usson (there used to be a spa there, hence the town of Usson-les-Bains) to the west of the river, in the hills there are two villages, Campagna de Sault and Fontanes de Sault. There was a chateau there (now only ruins, destroyed by the Spanish in 1640). The chateau is associated with the Cathars; it is said some thirty of them took refuge there, and there was a tunnel which was built between the two villages ....and it is a considerable distance.
http://www.paysdesault.com/village.htm

I think there is so much unwritten, unresearched history about this area that all the discussions about RLC only touch the subject.

Excellent point, Gabriele. Another thing to consider is how easily and often the consolamentum could be invalidated. Unlike apostolic succession where bishops were "made" by other bishops and the consecration was permanent, the sacrament of consolation was lost if someone slipped back into "error" - not just for themselves, but for everyone they had consoled, and everyone those persons had consoled, etc. Literally the entire "downline" from the offender had to be re-consoled as there had to be literally an unbroken chain of constant purity for the consolamentum to have any effect. I'm reminded of two instances I've read about wherein entire ordos were invalidated. The first was when Nicetas presided over the Cathar Council at Saint-Felix-de-Carmain and pronounced the Ordo of Bulgaria to be invalid, and all those whose consolations had come through its bishop, Mark of Lombardy, to be without effect. Nicetas re-consoled Mark in his own Ordo of Drugunthia (Dragovica) and all other perfecti in his chain had to be re-consecrated. Then a few years later, someone else declared Simon of Dragovica (who had consoled Nicetas) to have fallen back into error, thus invalidating Nicetas and all those he had consoled. Given the totality of consequence, it's highly unlikely that an unbroken line of Cathar perfecti might have survived intact for eight centuries, given their abhorrence for procreation - which probably wouldn't stop people from claiming otherwise today, but the grounds would be very tenuous.



Absolutely, and each time new information emerges, it's fascinating to watch people try to shoehorn it into the enigma!

TCP

Let's just say the author makes a lot of unfounded and unmerited assumptions.

TCP

If that’s a dig at me I can assure you that I am not trying to do that, I was simply remarking on IBJs idea and taking it forward a step to see if anyone else had any thoughts on the subject, its not my personal belief . Gabrielle made an excellent point but how can anyone ascertain who the last Parfait was? Wasnt Guillaume Bélibaste said to be the last Parfait in the Languedoc and we all know he didn’t play by the rules but what about the rest of Western Europe?

I think this is probably a reference to Richard II Plantagenet and his first wife Anne of Bohemia - they just got it backwards.

yes she was a daughter of Charles IV (Holy roman emperor) the favourite of Prague

From what I've just read, apparently many of Anne's entourage attended/were exposed to the ideas at Oxford and then carried them back to Prague.

Just as an aside….the crown jewels and the seven locks
Didn’t get to see them though

http://www.prague.net/jewels

Maybe they were referring to Blanche, daughter of Henry IV, who married in that part of the world at the start f the 15th century ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanche_of_England

TD

No, it wasn't at all.

TCP

No, I think Caelum nailed it with Anne of Bohemia. Vasilev got the details wrong.

TCP

Why does this necessarily follow?

Could not new perfecti coming from the current generation be given the necessaries by the extent perfecti from the previous generation?.