Arcadia Discussion Zone

I have recently started reading a great book about Montaillou and the Cathar heresy that still prevailed years after the Albigensian crusade. I can highly recommend the “The Yellow Cross” by René Weis and although I am only half way through it I cant put it down. This is just a brief history about the village and some of its inhabitants …..ok, not so brief but what the hell

Montaillou is a tiny village in an area called the Sabartes within the Pays de Sault, situated in the Pyrenées and in the medieval region of the Comté de Foix, the modern department of Ariège.

Jacques Fournier was among other things Bishop of Pamiers and it was there that he undertook a rigorous hunt for cathar heretics, he became pope Benedict XII (the third of the Avignon Popes).

Fournier's Inquisition Record is one of the most remarkable and comprehensive documents to survive from the Middle Ages. Fournier was a man of meticulous habits and carefully supervised the keeping of his records. As a result, the records of his inquisitions have served as the foundation for Weis and Ladurie's works on Montaillou and the resurgent Cathar movement at the beginning of the 14th Century.

This work presents an entire portrait of medieval Occitan village life based on the extensive confessions made to Fournier. The manuscript of Jacques Fournier's Inquisition Record is currently found in the Vatican Library, Lat. MS. 4030. and modern editions are available in Latin and French.

Béatrice de Planisoles was a minor noble in the Comté de Foix in the late thirteenth and early fourteenth century. She was born circa 1274, probably in the mountain village of Caussou.

A great deal of information about her life was recorded in the Fournier Register, and she has a central role in Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie's Montaillou

Béatrice was the daughter of Philippe de Planisoles a noble who was later convicted of supporting the Cathar heresy. Béatrice herself had definite sympathies to Albigensianism, but also remained attached to the Catholic Church.

At around the age of twenty Béatrice was married to Bérenger de Roquefort who was the châtelain of the small, and largely Cathar, community of Montaillou. Despite living in the fortress above the town Béatrice's life was closely linked with that of the local peasants and there was much intermixing. Béatrice did not care greatly for her husband and soon began courting other men. She began a courtship with Raymond Roussel, who was the steward of the châtelain's estate. When Roussel tried to sleep with her, however, she had him fired. She was also raped by Pathau Clergue.

In 1302 Bérenger de Roquefort died and left Béatrice a widow. At this point she became the open consort of Pathau Clergue. Soon, however, a relationship began with Pathau's cousin Pierre Clergue, the priest and the most powerful man in the village. This relationship lasted two years before Béatrice decided to leave the mountain village and remarry, wedding another minor noble named Otho de Lagleize.

He too died after only a few years of marriage. In her older years Béatrice took up with a young vicar Barthélemy Arilhac. This passionate woman was past menopause but fell in love with the vicar. She approached him, propositioned him, and the mad love affair began. The vicar returned her passion, and they ran away together and remained away for a year. After a number of years this relationship ended as Barthélemy worried he would be placed in danger by Béatrice's Cathar past. He was correct in his concerns and they were both arrested by the inquisition and held for a year.

Béatrice first appeared before the Inquisition on Saturday 26 July 1320 at the Episcopal Palace in Pamiers. She had been summoned to the hearing by Jacques Fournier, the Bishop of Pamias, to answer charges of blasphemy, witchcraft, and heresy. The charge of witchcraft was supported by the contents of her purse, which included a variety of "objects, strongly suggestive of having been used by her to cast evil spells": two umbilical cords of infants; linens soaked with blood, which seemed to be menstrual, in a sack of leather, with a seed of cole-wort; and seeds of incense slightly burned; a mirror and a small knife wrapped in a piece of linen; the seed of a certain plant, wrapped in muslin (which she testified was called "ive", and had been given to her by a pilgrim as a remedy for epilepsy); a dry piece of bread that is called "tinhol" (possibly millet bread); written formulas; and numerous morsels of linen.

Barthélemy was not punished, but Béatrice was sentenced to wear the yellow cross forever as punishment.

Pierre clergue was the son of Pons and Mengarde Clergue. The Clergues were a family of wealthy peasants, by far the wealthiest in Montaillou and their power extended throughout the region. Pierre, the head of the family after the death of his father, became the priest of the village. His brother Bernard Clergue became the local bayle, the enforcer of laws and collector of taxes. The Clergue brothers thus had a central role in being the representatives of both religious and secular power in the town. As one of the few educated men in town Pierre Clergue also served as a notary and performed other such tasks.

Despite being a priest in a Roman Catholic church Pierre Clergue was a staunch cathar having been converted by the parfait Guillaume Authié. For many years he played an important role by convincing the inquisition to ignore Montaillou, despite its being filled with heretics. This changed about 1300 when Pierre Clergue began to inform on some members of his parish. In 1308 he played a central role in the inquisition's move to arrest the entire adult population of the town. Pierre decided which villagers would be freed and which punished. He used this power to satisfy personal grievances. Despite this he and his brother continued to provide shelter and aid to certain Cathars.

A brief extract from the testament of Beatrice which is a fascinating insight into the lives and loves of the people from the area that were embroiled in both sides of the inquisition and her involvement with the above mentioned Pierre Clergue….

The good Christians did not trust the people of the low country at all, and no one there dared to speak of them and their life. Because of this the priest had fear that I would lose my soul when I descended into the low country where there are no good Christians. Bernard told me also that the good Christians, if they dared, would ask me to see them, because no one could be affirmed in their faith without having seen them and heard them speak. I told him that I did not wish to see them and that I did not have the heart to do it. He told me then to send them something as a sign of recognition, because when one of them received a kindness from another he would to pray to God for him. These good Christians, he told me only pray for someone from whom they receive something. I asked him "And what should I send them?" He told me that it would suffice to send them anything if one wished them to pray God for you. I gave him 5 Parisian sous, a coin then in circulation (in current coin?), to bring to these good Christians and I said "I do not know who will receive this money, but may it be for the love of God."

While my husband was still living, Raimond Clergue alias Pathau, the natural son of Guillaume Clergue (himself the brother of Pons Clergue who was the father of Pierre Clergue the curé of Montaillou), took me one day by force in the chateau. One year later, at the death of my husband Bérenger de Roquefort, he maintained me publicly. This did not hinder the curé, Pierre Clergue, from soliciting me, even though he knew that his first cousin Raimond had possessed me.
"How can you ask that?" I replied. "You know well that your cousin Raimond has had me. He will reveal all!" The rector replied that such things should not be committed by force, nor would it hinder in anyway. "I know well what has gone on, but I can be more useful to you and give you more gifts than that bastard!" He told me also that they could both maintain me, he, the curé and Raimond. I told him that I would not permit that at any price, because there would be misunderstandings between them because of me and each of them would vilify me because of the other.
And after the priest had possessed me I had no more relations with this Raimond, although he tried from time to time. There was after this time a hidden hatred between Raimond and the priest because of this, which nevertheless I knew of.

When I was at Dalou, after having contracted marriage with my second husband, Otho Lagleize, a marriage which took place at the Assumption of Saint Mary, this priest came to Dalou at the following harvest and told people that he was at Limoux. Entering my house, he said to me that my sister Gentille, who dwelt at Limoux greeted me, and I let him enter. We went together into the cellar, and he knew me carnally while Sibille the daughter of the late Arnaud Teisseyre, guarded the door of the cellar.

I had asked him at the beginning of our relations "What shall I do if I become pregnant from you? I will be dishonored and lost." He told me that he had an herb and if a man carries this herb when he is with a woman, he cannot engender nor can the woman conceive. I said to him "What is this herb? Is it the same that the cowherds put over the pots of milk when they are sent to the rennet, which prevents the milk from curdling while it is in the pot?" He told me to not worry about what herb it was, but that it was an herb with this virtue, and that he had it.

After this, when he wished to possess me, he carried something rolled up and threaded in a sac of linen, the size and length of an ounce or of the first joint of my little finger, with a long thread that he passed around my neck. And this thing which he said was an herb hung down between my breasts just to the beginning of the stomach. He placed it thus always when he wished to know me and it rested at my neck until he arose. When he wished to rise, he took it off my neck. And if sometimes, in one night, this priest wished to know me two times or more, he would ask me, before we united, where the herb was. I would take it, finding it by the thread which I had around my neck and place it in his hand. He would take it and place it before the opening of my stomach, the thread passing between my breasts. It was thus that he united with me, and no other way. I asked him one day to let me have this herb. He told me that he would not do so, because then I could give myself to some other man without conceiving. He would not give it to me, in order that I would abstain out of fear of the consequences. He did this above all in thinking of his cousin Raimond Clergue, alias Pathau, who had once maintained me, before this priest, his first cousin, had me, because they were jealous of each other.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.houst ... planis.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.houst ... milhac.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.houst ... razide.htm

Thanks Tingra
I need a new holiday read
Regards
Nic

If you haven't read it, you would probably also enjoy:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Montaillou-Prom ... 036&sr=8-2

It is very much an academic book, so be warned, but the level of detail is remarkable. The link above is apparently for a new translation, which I haven't read, but the translator is the same, so....it is also of course available in French.

yes i have seen it thanks, its very similar to the "yellow cross" in the way the story is portrayed, quite fascinating actually

were the cathars good men?

In the story i am reading the perfects and Parfaits come accross like mafia dons, especially when a high ranking cathar family member dies

There were a lot of assasinations for the cause as well and we know they are true events because they were documented for the inquisition, for instance when the whole village was arrested and interogated they all told virtually the same story.....a cathar can not lie (allegedly).

Then we have Guilhem Belibaste? He practically broke every rule in the book

Guilhem Belibaste was the last known Cathar Parfait in the Languedoc. He lived almost a century after the start of the Cathar Wars. He lead an extraordinary life for anyone of the period, let alone a Cathar Parfait. He was the son of another Guilhem Bélibaste, a rich farmer from Cubières, now in the Aude departement of the Languedoc-Roussillon. His family are known to have held Cathar sympathies.

After killing a shepherd he fled Cubières and became a shepherd himself. At some stage he adopted Cathar beliefs. He was the pupil of Pierre and Jacques Authié who had recently re-introduced the Cathar faith to the Sabarthes area on what is now the French side of the Pyrenees. He eventually took the Consolamentum and became a Parfait.

He settled in Catalonia at Sant Mateu and Morella - an area under the control of the King of Aragon, and beyond the reach of the Papal Inquisition then established in the French controlled territories. Like other Parfaits he worked for a living, in his case making baskets and carding combs. He was also mentor and pastor to a local community of Cathars, some of whom had fled persecution in the Languedoc. Members of this community travelled regularly between the two regions, including Pierre Maury, a native of Montaillou.

In violation of the celibacy demanded of the Cathar elect, Bélibaste enjoyed sexual relations with at least one woman. According to Cathar belief, this act nulified the effects of the Consolamentum so from that point onwards he was no longer a Parfait.

In 1313 Belibaste's lover, Raymonde Piquier, became pregnant, Bélibaste persuaded Pierre Maury to marry her to provide cover for his relationship with her, making it appear the child was Maury's. A few days later, he dissolved the marriage (another odd thing for a Cathar Parfait to do), apparently stricken by jealousy.

After a sting operation initiated Jacques Fournier, the Inquisitor Bishop of Pamiers, in which he was induced to return to territory controlled by the Inquisition, he was captured and condemned to death. His last night on earth went some way to restoring his tarnished reputation, since he spent it trying to help the friend who had betrayed him. He was burned at the stake in 1323, in Villerouge Termenès, the property of the Archbishop of Narbonne.

http://www.languedoc-france.info/

Thanks,Tingra, I have the book at home and re-read it quite often.I had never heard of Montaillou before this book.I only found out about it when PBS ran some special on the Inquisition and this was one of the cases they highlighted.

In regards to your question, I think the parfaits themselves were good,not withstanding Belibaste,who later redeemed himself at the end,however the ordinary followers, or credenties ,being just ordinary followers were not so holy, just folks like you or I, and the mindset of humanity in many areas hasn't changed.

Most average people when they hear Cathar think only of the parfaits, and forget their followers, the men and woman on the street in the villages and towns of the time.

I would like to see maybe in the future, a book about the women parfaits and their activites, if possible.And even a book on the Cathar Church and any followers they had in the Rhineland or other places in Germany if known.Their major centers were in France and Northern Italy,in Lombardy. I think there is a book about their italian activities, but not sure of the name. I'm curious about Germany since my father's family is german, mainly in Bavaria and the Black Forest. Lombardy isn't that far away, and some Cathars could have entered Bavaria at least. The Cathars even went to England, but were turned down by the king, who ordered that the populace not feed or shelter them,and they perished. This is assumed because there was no English branch of the Cathar faith, and they never gained any foothold there. These Cathars were said to have come I believe from the Rhine area.

I've read both the Promised Land of Error and The Yellow Cross and they are so different. The first is more of a text on all the beliefs and practices of the area as well as all the Cathar information from the Register. The Yellow Cross is a real work of love...the author visted all the places, has photos of where the houses were, the trails mentioned in the stories--and he writes of seeing the actual physical document in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris...(not the full Register, but something else)...
Of all the books I've read on the Cathars (in English & French), it is my favorite because he brings the people to life.

There are a number of books on the Cathar women and their work but they're in French and I haven't seen any translations. Anne Brenon is a noted historian and has written a number of books worth reading (for those who read French) including Les Femmes Carhares. Her husband, Jean Louis Gasc has taken some of the most iconic photos of Montsegur and surrounding area; he also works as a confroncier (guide) at the Cite de Carcassonne (French-German).
This is a site by a man who became quite involved in the story of Montaillou: (v. good photos)
http://www.thoughtsandplaces.org/newin2 ... aillou.htm

Hi Holly Dolly, this is from a recent article I read about catharism and heresy in Germany and England that might interest you….

The Teutonic peoples were comparatively free from the infection, although the propinquity of the Rhinelands to France led to occasional visitations. About 1110 we hear of some heretics at Troyes, who seem to have escaped without punishment, though two among them were priests, and in 1200 eight more were found there and burned. In 1145 a number were discovered in Cologne, some of whom were tried; but, during the examination, the impatient populace, fearing to be balked of their spectacle, broke in, carried off the culprits, and burned them out of hand—a fate which they bore not only with patience, but with joy fullness. There must have been a Catharan Church established by this time at Cologne, since one of the sufferers was called their bishop. In 1163 fugitives from the Flemish persecution were found at Cologne—eight men and three women, who had taken refuge in a barn. As they associated with no one, and did not frequent the churches, the Christian neighbors recognized them as heretics, seized them, and took them before the bishop, when they boldly avowed their faith, and suffered burning with the resolute gladness which distinguished the sect. We hear of others, about the same time, burned at Bonn, but this scanty catalogue exhausts the list of German heresies in the twelfth century. Missionaries penetrated the country from Hungary, Italy, and Flanders; they are found in Switzerland, Bavaria, Swabia, and even as far as Saxony, but they made few converts.

England was likewise little troubled with heresy. It was shortly after the persecutions in Flanders that in 1166 there were discovered thirty rustics—men and women—German in race and speech, probably Flemings, fleeing from the pious zeal of Henry of Reims, who had come and were endeavoring to propagate their errors. They made but one convert, a woman, who deserted them in the hour of trial. The rest stood firm when Henry II, then engaged in his quarrel with Becket, and anxious to prove his fidelity to the Church, called a council of bishops at Oxford, and presided over it, to determine their faith. They openly avowed it, and were condemned to be scourged, branded in the face with a key, and driven forth. The importance which Henry attached to the matter is shown by his devoting, soon after, in the Assizes of Clarendon, an article to the subject, forbidding any one to re­ceive them under penalty of having his house torn down, and requiring all sheriffs to swear to the observance of the law, and to make all stewards of the barons and all knights and franc-tenants swear likewise—the first secular law on the subject in any statute-book since the fall of Rome. I have already mentioned the steadfastness with which the unfortunates endured their martyrdom. Stripped to the waist and soundly scourged, and branded on the forehead, they were sent adrift shelterless in the winter-time, and speedily, one by one, they miserably perished. England was not hospitable to heresy, and we hear little more of it there. Towards the close of the century some heretics were found in the province of York, and early in the next century a few were discovered in London, and one was burned; but practically the orthodoxy of England was unsullied until the rise of Wickliffe.

And a small bit about their ceremonies….

The ministrant asked the neophyte whether he desired to be a confessor or a martyr; if the latter, a pillow or a towel (known among the German Cathari as Untertuch) was placed over his mouth while certain prayers were recited; if he chose the former he remained without food or drink, except a little water, for three days; and in either case, if he survived, he became one of the Perfected. This Endura was also sometimes used as a mode of suicide, which was frequent in the sect. Torture at the end of life relieved them of torment in the next world, and suicide by voluntary starvation, by swallowing pounded glass or poisonous potions, or opening the veins in a bath, was not uncommon—and, failing this, it was a kind office for the next of kin to extinguish life when death was near. The ceremony known to the sectaries as “Melioramentum”, and described by the inquisitors as “veneration”, was important as affording to them a proof of heresy.

http://www.third-millennium-library.com ... THARI.html

yes i agree and your transported back in time while reading it

Thanks for those links Tingra. Going to have an hour or two on those.

Your welcome
These are great books......http://www.third-millennium-library.com ... ontent.htm
And an excellent all round resourse.

Sorry to intrude on your cosy chat but as you can see I mentioned this back in jan. 2010.
Glad you finally caught up !


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2043&p=52041&hilit=+yellow+cross#p52041

TD

Caught up! It has taken you a fortnight to think up that sarcastic comment

Did you read the book?
What is your opinion on the roll Pierre Clergue played as village priest and cathar?
Do you know what the baptism of fire was?

Sorry, only just found the conversation.
I'd love to discuss it with you if combatitive aggression wasn't dripping from every syllable of your posts.
Its was over a year ago since I read it, in order to discuss it i'll need to re-visit it.
Whilst I'm doing that why not favour me with an explanation with 'the knife in the back' comment ?
TD

Are you capable of having a discussion about anything at all without including some obnoxious comment? Judging by that reply I think not

Of course I am and we can have that whenever you stop acting as someone elses spokesperson. It would be an act of faith in the process for you to explain 'the knife in the back' comment.
Maybe you're not at a place yet to talk yet.......
I've said in the past that I accept that you're not responsible for the ridiculous Crista debacle but every time you jump in
to respond it reinfoces the notion that you wish to be seen as at the centre of the attempt to 'manipulate' the forum.

TD

See what I mean

Have you an idea how ridiculous that statement is? What the hell is wrong with you?
I am no ones spokesman, I retaliate when you harangue Roger because he is a friend and someone I have a huge amount of respect for, it irritates me that you continue to harass him even when he isn't taking part in the discussion. Why insist on bringing the " crista" into a discussion that has nothing to do with the topic in hand? We were accused of bringing the forum down with that subject yet you won't let it go. As far as I am concerned it's your continual provocative obnoxiousness that will amount to the eventual death of this forum and as someone lately asked, why the he'll are you still here? You bring nothing but contempt and discourse and seem to spend your entire life waiting to jump down some posters throat.

You're not his spokesman but every time his name is mentioned you snarl on his behalf?
I know its sunday morning but take a moment to revisit that, will you?
Some might conclude that his departure was precipitated by a recognition that his position was untenable and the game was up.

I'm flattered that you think I can bring down the Forum!
What has damaged its credibility is the profusion of the fantasies, half truths and sheer mindboggling illogicality that, daily, is paraded in the name of historical investigation.
I'd love to discuss René Weiss's work with you but your mind is closed whilst you attempt to settle the score you nurse for real or imagined slights.
Don't forget Tingra it wasn't me who manipulated the forum for his ends. I simply drew attention to that issue.
Its not my fault you feel embarassed, don't take it out on me.
TD

Why should you care if I defend my friends? Its my perogative to do so simply because I want to and if I snarl its because you have usually made some distainful comment. He hasn’t departed anywhere, his life does not revolve around this forum and and lets face it TD its no pleasure these days. It obviously pisses you off that he ignores your harassment and the more you do it the longer he will oblige you
Untenable is your deffinition of a subject that became to controversial and opened the door to all kinds of weird and wonderful shenannigans off as well as on this forum and therefore it was agreed that the subject would no longer be discussed, I am sure a lot of members are happy about that considering the rucous it caused
I have no score to settle TD, that’s an illogical assumption on your part as usual, and I am not embarrassed about anything I say or write. You on the other hand should take a long hard look at yourself and get yourself a life my friend, all this reading between the lines that you do is making Jack a very dull boy



Does anyone else think that i or any of the so called "crista" team attempt to manipulate the forum?

Come to think about it i have moved that question to the misc section, if what TD says is true it deserves a proper response away from what could be an interesting thread here.

Please believe me when I say that it doesn't bug me at all that he's not here to patronise and mislead us
Every day without 'Roger' is a joy.
No doubt he's pursuing other projects; whats that phrase about 'some of the people all of the time' ?
Tingra, 'Roger' himself acknowledged the manipulation himself to 'spoil' the uncontrolled release of info in a book about the Crista.
Do keep up dear!
TD

complete and utter bollocks

You sweetie !
Is that a compliment? A sneaking admiration perhaps ?
It is mightier than the sword and crucifix, for that matter.
I didn't know you cared, you always seemed so brusque and off hand!
You never did answer my last question. A pm will do.
Good to see you back, at least you can spell...................

TD

Lets' go back to the original topic, The Yellow Cross.

I think the question was asked about Clergue and his real position in the town. The story (and the interviews from which the story was derived) seem to point to him as a man more concerned with the world (considering all the women he seduced or bribed to sleep with him) than with deeply spiritual matters.
Of course the bonhommes did teach that 'marriage' as the RC church required, was neither beneficial spiritually nor needed. Since the croyants held that the body was already corrupt, fidelity or infidelity was not an issue.
For a rather randy priest (and community leader), it was easier to go along with those beliefs which served his own self-interest. He was also enough of a politician to know the leading families were cathar sympahtisers, ifnot believers themselves. He was doing exactly what the bonhommes said the priests did: In the cities they seduced the young boys and in the rural towns they seduced the women. And it wasn't just talk---historical records show priests often had a 'wife' and the abbeys and monasteries supplied the opposite needs.

Weis' book tells the human story, the Forgotten Land of Error shows the other side: The beliefs about ghosts coming back and demanding food (one person's sole occupation was interpreting what the dead wanted from their surviving kin). I'm not saying it actually happened, just that the people believed that was how it was.
I think one reason catharism developed such deep roots in Aude & Ariege was that the area had been --as you know from the RLC history--under the contorl of the Goths and their beliefs. In the 7th century in Toulouse a bishop was tried for heresy for following the dogma of Arianism--which is very much like catharism in rejecting the absolute (singular) divinity of Jesus.
To travel in the area and see people whose families have lived there for centuries is to see that the Celts influenced the area as well.
But after the death of Charlemagne, things fell apart and people no longer had real links with their heritage, what they had was traditions and oral history---and those degrade over time.
What the Register tells us, through Leroy Ladurie and Weis is really a brief look at what was going on 50 to 75 years after the fall of Montsegur.
Both books are well worth reading for what they are, but they are not a good source for information on what was happening when the cathars were a strong force in the area.

The late mayor of Roquefixade considered himself a modern cathar and wrote and lectured on the subject. He had several discussions/debates with a couple of RC bishops (well attended!) at Roquefixade and one of the bishops admitted that had he lived then, his sympathies would have probably been with the Good Men.

More sites in French:
http://www.chemins-cathares.eu/index.php (website of Yves Maris, the mayor of Roquefixade which is still maintained)
http://www.catharisme.eu/ Catharisme d'Aujourd'hui
http://www.gadal-catharisme.org/page_1_4_en.htm
Antonin Gadal, a somewhat controversial figure, he and Deodat Roche brought a lot of energy and attention to the subject of the cathars and associated subject matter:
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=5235

RLC gets most of the esoteric attention but there are many threads woven into the history and countryside of Aude & Ariege.
While it is well and good to study and research what interests you, I think visiting the area is really the best way to find your own take on the truth(s).
Analysis and comparisons of opinions is fine but really, personal experience is the best measure of what could/will matter to each of you individually.

On one of my visits to the south I was driving to Pau to pick up a friend flying in from Amsterdam and decided to avoid the peage and take local roads. I had read one of Andrew Gough's article (http://www.andrewgough.co.uk/stations.html) and detoured so I could see the relocated Stations of the Cross. The church (the Stations are on the hillside behind it) itself is strange, with Templar crosses in the stone inside...but it's not that old a church...had I not been on a schedule, I would have investigated the area further---but the little I did see and feel made me much more interested in what Andrew had investigated, and written.

For those who have not invested time and attention and read all the previous articles, I do recommend them. The reading may broaden your understanding of some matters or may spark interest in something different.

Sorry Gabriele, thanks for that and I was in the middle of a reply when the server went down and I lost all I had written. I will get back to you on another day when I have more time and not being harassed by a numpty