Arcadia Discussion Zone

John Harper, this one is for you, so hopefully the subject got your attention!

I just ran across this from the book:

Beck, Roger (2007). The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire. London: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0199216134. , p. 27-28.

It is a description regarding the 2nd century CE Fiano Romano relief from a Roman Mithraeum:



"On the specific banquet scene on the Fiano Romano relief, one of the torchbearers points a caduceus towards the base of an altar, where flames appear to spring up. Robert Turcan has argued that since the caduceus is an attribute of Mercury, and in mythology Mercury is depicted as a psychopomp, the eliciting of flames in this scene is referring to the dispatch of human souls and expressing the Mithraic doctrine on this matter. Turcan also connects this event to the tauroctony: the blood of the slayed bull has soaked the ground at the base of the altar, and from the blood the souls are elicited in flames by the caduceus."

This has it all, underground temples, cristaic instruments, blood, flames, Phrygian caps, Sol Invictus, Luna, snakes (described as "crested"), dead zodiacal animals, cults of the dead....A veritable feast! The two torchbearers by the way, are Cautes and Cautopates, the ever present attendants of Mithras, who are thought to represent either sunrise and sunset, or Spring and Fall equinoxes.

I should mention in fairness that others have interpreted what is "springing" up as water...anyway, I thought you would be interested. I was also thinking about you when reading about the original Pentecost event recently and wondered if you have looked at that at all in the context of flames?

Paddy

Sorry for the delay in replying, still exploring this bloody altar; intriguing idea emerging however so I'll have to stick with it.

Up to now I have concentrated upon finding textual testimony to the ancient ritual phenomena at the centre of my research. I take you've had a look at my website; much more data to input but I'm having to put it to one side for several weeks whilst I juggle other things.

So many momentous implications flow from this written testimony, my initial fear being the suppression of this evidence by the Church and its various affiliations. I'm a fairly disorganised person and tend to search and file in a rather random fashion, a process that led me to RLC. So your raising an area of research whose importance I have neglected, i.e. pre-christian symbolism.

The above image is an illustration of this, and your right to say it contains all of the elements associated with global sacrificial activity with its divine beings and cult objects. Mercury has some interesting attributes, but sadly ancient divinity has been another area of research I've avoided in any detail because of the complexity. The key ritual elements for me are the priests (the attendants of Mithras) igniting the offered blood, whilst another importantly offers it directly to the radiating Sol. The victim of the altar, the Bull rising/risen up to heaven. I'll check out the elements of the Caduceus and get back to you.

Tell me more...

Is this an area your interest in? I ask because I need help on my new website. Its certainly an area I need to explore further, and it is a forum conversation that I would certainly appreciate.

John

John, thanks for your response. I have indeed visited your site and also have recently gone back and reread your Arcadia article - good stuff. One thing I would point out is that the material you are studying IS pre-Christian, in that it is primarily Old Testament, as in Hebrew writings, heavily influenced by Mesopotamian/Sumerian ideas - the fact that Christians recognize the Old Testament does not make it Christian in origin. Mithraism is interesting in and of itself timingwise, because it appeared at the same time as Christianity, spread extremely quickly through the Roman Empire, and has unclear origins, but also is full of classic themes and connections - it is not overstating the case to say it was a "competitor." I mention the Pentecost event because it IS Christian in the sense of being a New Testament
description of enveloping flames (usually described as representing the Holy Spirit descending):

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Acts 2:1-4

Here's an illustration showing both sides of the object.



According to the standard version of the Tauroctony story, Mithras ascends to heaven after killing the bull where he and Sol eat the bull's remains. In honor of this Mithraic Romans held an annual meal where beef was the primary dish. (Justin Martyr seemed to think the Mithraic meal was more or less the same as the Christian Eucharist, but the archaeology doesn't support him.) Anyway it's hard to see from the relief what the torchbearers (their names are Cautes and Cautopates) are cooking in this relief so no reason to assume it's human.

Father Silence

Caelum

Sorry about the Paddy, losing it big time.

Well spotted; it began life as a Biblical enquiry, but then expanded until it gradually became the discovery of a royal and priestly mystery linked with the universal practice of blood sacrifice. The keyword here is universal, a global rite inducing the same global phenomena; the only difference being in the interpretation of these induced events.

Mithraism, as opposed to gnosticism, was a sacrificial cult, more akin to a mystery school than a christian sect; either way I believe that their spirituality was rooted in the same ancient royal and priestly ritual activity. The difference was of course the novel concept of an original sin that preventing one from entering the netherworld; something that a sin-offering couldn't negate.

Sheila asked me about the New Testament Pentacostal fire, and I told her I believed that its explanation lay in the Egyptian origins of this Hebrew festival, it does have a hint of the hathor/sehkmet myth. Was this Egyptian myth associated with a harvest festival...?

John

A fascinating story being told here, and one I don't think we understand completely. Thanks FS, the classic bull sacrifice was missing, I see Sol's messenger is a bird, the crow in this instance. Note the attention being paid to the bulls blood, blood universally believed to contain the spirit, its release undoubtedly the sacred objective of sacrifice. Do you know how much blood there is within the body of a bull or a horse; not sure myself, but I saw a road traffic accident some years ago involving a horse trailer, sadly there was lots of the stuff. Anyway, it is the focus of the rite, its liberation, its offering to Sol, and its mysterious association with the Caduceus? I suspect that the snake is somehow depicting the blood, or some aspect of it; perhaps its own cold blood and the need to seek the dawn sunlight, is significant?

One thing is missing from this scene, the ears of wheat? This is the link between the Christian supper and that of Mithraic worshippers. Grain being a crucial and perhaps the most enigmatic aspect of blood sacrifice, it being universally involved in this rite. If you've read my work, you'll know that I see the altar as suppying freshly liberated blood for ritual use within the darkness of caves, tombs, and temple sanctuaries. The objective being to manifest the radiant spirits of persons, deceased persons, and divine beings.

I came across a couple of interesting links to Mithraic temples below that I have yet to examine...

http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/archive/mithras/text.htm
http://www.ostia-antica.org/regio5/9/9-1.htm

John

Caelum

You were right to point me towards Mithras, he encapsulates so much, and yet we are still left wondering what happened after the bull sacrifice, other than of course the universal meal provided by the offering.

I note another crucial christain parallel, Mithras was born from rock, Jesus built his church upon rock; it's all making terrible sense, but only to me I suspect.

John

This is a great resource for anyone interested in Mithras

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/index.htm

John,

take a look at illustration 10 from Tingra's link above...

Caelum

Fascinating symbolism...


Like the christian last supper, a ritual conundrum...


What do you make of it?

John

Oh gosh, John,

I'm no expert in this area. In a general sense perhaps it symbolizes fertility and rebirth, but more specifically it sure seems like body and blood, as in bread and wine (vine). I'm going to try to read Tingra's book link later tonight if I can and perhaps there will be more detail.

Caelum, Tingra

Really glad you pointed me towards Mithras, I hadn't realised what my research was missing by my ignoring the characteristics of ancient deities. BTW, with regard to the ritual siginifance of wheat? I had suspect that it was linked to the Candida albicans infection, but the more recent discovery of a Luciferase-Like Protein in the human female reproductive tract is exciting? The principle clues here being the ritual avoidance of both menstrual blood and leavened bread. In the same vein, if anyone has any ideas or suspicions as to what the mysterious Haoma juice was, please let me know?

The link to Franz Cumont's book "The Mysteries of Mithra (1903) is really illuminating. I've only half read the chapter dealing with the "Origins of Mithraism", but let me quickly run through a few of the illuminating traits he has and where these impact upon my hypothesis.

First and foremost; "He is neither sun, nor moon, nor stars", According to the author, he is a "deified abstraction". Like Jesus, he guides the souls of the deceased to paradise, and away from the demons and hell; but his facility is based upon a strict ritual adherence, and it here that we get to grips with his Old Testament YHWH'ian characteristics. The first being that the sinful are liable to incur his "Terrible Wrath" if they fail to honour him properly and offer him sacrificial libations. His is a strict ceremonial regime where those who dare to approach the altar were "obliged to purify themselves by repeated ablutions and flagellations"; a practice that recalls the hygiene practices of the Hebrew's and the "rite of baptism and the corporeal tests imposed on the Roman neophytes before initiation."

If you've read my article you know that I identify this strict ritual hygiene as necessary in order to avoid a spontaneous Altar-fire. A threat that gave rise to the New Testament work of John the Baptist and the later Christian concept of an Original Sin. He was also a god of light, and so I assume (at this point) that he was a Chthonian god, worshipped in the darkness of caves and tombs, where his mysterious character was what I have termed a Sanctuary-radiance. As if this wasn't enough, he was also especially protective of the "Great Kings"; a witness to their veracity, and "it was he whom caused that mysterious light to descend upon them, [ a Bodily-radiance] that consecrates their authority"!

And I've only just started to read this online book...

John

Yes John, Mithras is a fascinating subject (IMHO), the St Michael aspect is also an interesting angle where Mithras is concerned, a lot of the grottos or caves where he was worshipped are now sanctuaries to St Michael such as the eagle nest mountain top type chapels etc. I was particularly interested in how the cult of Mithras spread with the conscripts and roman legions, how the diffusion of cultures amalgamated around the time that Christianity and Mithras were fighting it out for supremacy.
Back later….

BTW...dont conflate Mithra with Mithras...persian and roman.

Tingra

One of the things to come from my research is an appreciation of the early universality of ancient gods. There was a time when ancient rulers, and ancient historians, readily accepted and acknowledged the shared attributes of each others gods; after all, their veneration was barely indistinguishable. The last millennia BC saw a drastic change in this commonality wrought mainly by the social changes that occurred in Greece and which later spread across the Hellenic world. A wind of change that heralded in the more personal spiritual mystery cults that we are beginning to explore here.

John

I understand what you are saying here but when the Romans adopted Mithra they didn’t adopt all its attributes and added some of their own. There is even some confusion with Mithridates, although most scholars disagree in this instance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates_(soldier)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates


The good thing about those articles i linked to, is how they explain the distribution of the cult with the roman legions, slaves and trade links and when these cults transferred from populace to populace it was a bit like Chinese whispers where things were added and altered over time which incidentally didn’t just happen with this cult in particular.

I couldn’t finish that bit without adding the method of Mithridates execution …..i know Sheila would like it .........lovely.

[The king] decreed that Mithridates should be put to death in boats; which execution is after the following manner:

Taking two boats framed exactly to fit and answer each other, they lay down in one of them the malefactor that suffers, upon his back; then, covering it with the other, and so setting them together that the head, hands, and feet of him are left outside, and the rest of his body lies shut up within, they offer him food, and if he refuse to eat it, they force him to do it by pricking his eyes; then, after he has eaten, they drench him with a mixture of milk and honey, pouring it not only into his mouth, but all over his face. They then keep his face continually turned towards the sun; and it becomes completely covered up and hidden by the multitude of flies that settle on it. And as within the boats he does what those that eat and drink must needs do, creeping things and vermin spring out of the corruption and rottenness of the excrement, and these entering into the bowels of him, his body is consumed. When the man is manifestly dead, the uppermost boat being taken off, they find his flesh devoured, and swarms of such noisome creatures preying upon and, as it were, growing to his inwards. In this way Mithridates, after suffering for seventeen days, at last expired.
—Plutarch, Life of Artaxerxes

It's reminiscent of how some of the debates in this room are conducted.

Fascinating thread though - thanks for the link to the Mithras material.

Tingra

Gotcha, I'll read the rest of book first before placing said foot in said mouth
Wonder which amusing person thought that one up?

A good punishment for the miscreants I think

John

[quote="Father Silence


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I think the Holy Grail is here on show.