Arcadia Discussion Zone

Hi Roger,

Roger wrote:



I fully accept that the claim that Bafomet was Occitan for Mahomet is an extremely plausible claim. I also accept that the claim that any hypothetical “head worship” was ‘Islamic’ is extremely implausible. However, the rest of the above statement confuses me a little.

Are you saying that the origin of the “head worship” claim was the confession of a single Occitan brother, who had been arrested and interrogated during the mass arrests of October 1307?

Regards,

Spartacus

'ello Roger back in his wishful thinking mode again.

Allow me to educate anyone who is actually prepared to listen.


Baphomet in Hebrew. Read from right to left

Using the ATBASH cipher and the HEBREW alphabet we get:



Sophia - Wisdom.

The chances of this occurring by accident are infinitesimal

Other uses of the Atbash Cipher were in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Jeremiah. 'Sheshach' ('Sheshakh'), a city scholars had never heard of, was decoded as 'Babylon' ('Babel') in a passage that described the fall of the city. 'Leb Kamai' was 'Kasdim' ('Chaldea'), which was also an archaic name for Babylon. Then, of course, 'hagu', which translated to 'test' in a passage referencing to who scholars believe to be Jesus.

Twelve of the 231 Templars that were interogated admitted to worshipping a severed head.

You're privileged to witness Roger's painful introduction to something called FACTS over wishful thinking

Of course anyone doubting severed head worship should look at the story of the Bishop of Aosta, St Gratus (accompanied by Saint Jucundus (Giocondo) La Gioconde - Mona Lisa) where at the height of Templar influence it says that Gratus had a vision to go to Holy Land and bring back the Head of John the Baptist (like yer do). St Gratus is depicted in art with a bunch of grapes and the Head of John the Baptist. He did bring it back of course, one wonders of course how he knew where to find it. Now who could have told him I wonder?




There you have it on a plate so to speak.

Give it up Sonny it ain't goin' away.

No, it comes from the harbour master. That info is also to find on this forum, somewhere ...

Any drawing or writing about their ship building available?

I would'nt compare Vikings to medieval french or italian equestrian suumque aristocrats. I believe the Vikings had extraordinary sailing skills.

By the way

According to Manly P Hall - The Secret Teachings of All Ages the skull in Gothic Mysteries is a representation of the Dome of Heaven i.e. The constellation of stars above.

Birds flying across this were thus regarded as thoughts of the Gods particularly the Raven. Odin's two messenger Ravens were called Hugin and Munin.


Time (tick) Skull (tick) Raven (tick)

Crucifix right in the middle of the painting. With a line through the distorted cross at 23.5 degrees from the horizon and passing through a bird on the right and the Tau cross of St Anthony on the left.

And the fingers of St Paul.



Two of these three finger gestures are tilted at the tilt angle of the earth.

If you don't mind Eginolf, I will answer you on the "K.T. at La Rochelle" thread.---Bill

Saint Denis
After his head was chopped off, Denis is said to have picked it up and walked ten kilometres (six miles), preaching a sermon the entire way, making him one of many cephalophores in hagiology. He is venerated in the Roman Catholic Church as patron of Paris, France and as one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers. The medieval and modern French name "Denis" derives from the ancient name Dionysius.

In The Golden Legend Paul of Tarsus at his martyrdom "stretched forth his neck, and so was beheaded. And as soon as the head was from the body, it said: Jesus Christus! which had been to Jesus or Christus, or both, fifty times." When the head was recovered and was to be rejoined to the body as a relic, in response to a prayer for confirmation that this was indeed the right head, the body of Paul turned to rejoin the head that had been set at its feet

In legend, the female saint Osyth stood up after her execution, picking up her head like Saint Denis in Paris and other cephalophoric martyrs, and walking with it in her hands, to the door of a local convent, before collapsing there.[12] Similarly, Valerie of Limoges carried her severed head away to her confessor, Saint Martial.

Saint Cuthbert of Lindisfarne is often depicted with his head on his neck/shoulders and carrying a second head in his hands. However, he is not a cephalophore. The second head is that of Saint Oswald of Northumbria, who was buried with him at Durham Cathedral.

he speaking severed head appears memorably in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

But what is revealing to me what Spartacus put up
is that the head was suppose to give them wealth

that is interesting...

Eginolf????

Hi Roger,

Roger wrote:



Well, to be really honest, I wasn’t very confused. I just wanted you to clear up what you meant. IMHO the way you originally made your statement…



…might confuse some readers, particularly those not so well versed in the nuances of Templar study. IMHO the above statement might be understood to mean that the claim that the Templars worshipped heads could be traced to the confession of a single Occitan Templar, and when the Inquisitors realised this they ‘embarrassingly’ dropped the claim. (The concept of Inquisitor/torturers being ‘embarrassed’ is a new one to me. I had actually thought you used the term in your earlier statement as a kind of clever psychological trick to imply that any modern reader who believed in the possibility of Templar heresy should be embarrassed!)

Of course, this isn’t what happened at all, as you quite rightly point out in response to my post:



But, of course, not just in several interviews…

Roger wrote:



This position has always puzzled me. How exactly does one ‘easily debunk’ the ‘Templar head worship’ charge? (assuming debunk to mean to expose as false)…

Roger wrote:



(embarrassed Inquisitors again...) At the risk of forever joining the ranks of the 'insulted', it is the definitiveness of statements such as this that most shocks me when it comes to Templar studies. The available evidence simply does not allow such statements to be made with any certainty beyond opinion. All claims relating to Templar heresy are IMHO at very best interpretive and at worst loaded with bias.

Btw... As noted earlier I'm well aware of the Bafomet poem and it's implications regarding the single source attribution of a name to the said Idol viz head... my queries are not about 'bafomet'...

Regards,

Spartacus

Yes there was the charge of head worshiping

there were 12 out of 231 ...talked about a head and it was under torture

from my article
The legend of the Templars and Baphomet is connected with the word.

Alleged name of the idol which the Templars were accused of worshipping. (According to l'Abbé Constant, quoted by Littré,1 this word was cabalistically formed by writing backward tem. o. h. p. ab., abbreviation of templi omnium hominum pacis abbas, 'abbot' or 'father of the temple of peace of all men.') Hence Baphomet·ic a.

Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1984 (23rd Printing) p. 659.

Hugh De Payens established the Knights Templar on September 13 and who came to Balantravach (Midlothian) Scotland. It became the first land dedicated to the Templars by Royal charter. It is located a few miles from Rosslyn chapel. The Pope and King of France arrested the Templars. “Out of 231 templars tried only 12 admitted under torture admitted to knowing anything about the icon(Baphomet)”

http://www.ufodigest.com/article/rosslyn-chapel-god-nature-symbolized-goats-head

But when your under torture how much is your testimony worth
and yet there was more than one admission there were 12

The hype on Baphomet was started by an Austrian named Hammer-Purgstall (1774-1856) who in 1818 published his "Mysterium Baphometis revelatum seu fratres militiae templi". And before that a german Illuminati named J. A. von Starck (1741—1816) connected the Baphomet legend to freemason tradition.
I take it it's mason's rubbish.
Hammer-Purgstall writes that Ibn Wahschije, an arabian writer of the 10th century who was known in Europe for the translation of ancient arab alphabets into medieval English, gives a description of a scarab with a man's head who's name is BAHOMID, with the addition CHARUF (= sheep).
Sylvester de Sacy wrote in 1819 that Baphomet most probably was a reliquary with a human head on it.
And there exists also a certain "Abu al Fihamat" with 3 heads in the kitchen of Tomar castle.
And don't forget that in Cyprus (the templars last stronghold) there's a city named BAPHO.
And of course Eliphas Levi made his own movie out of that: http://altreligion.about.com/od/symbols/a/baphomet.htm

I would like to know how the head would bring you fortune?

I have heard that the one who possesses the head may possess the power of that spirit

We have the Skull and Bones Society here and they are suppose to have Indian Chief Geronimo

A secret society at Yale University, known as the Skull and Bones, in the U.S. has been sued over the remains of an Apache Native American.

Descendants of the Apache chief Geronimo believe that 90 years ago a group of students including George Bush's grandfather opened their ancestor's tomb and stole his skull to use in fraternal rituals.

Now Geronimo's relatives want his body back to give it a proper burial.

“I believe strongly from my heart that his spirit was never released,” Harlyn Geronimo, the chief’s great-grandson, said.

Roger why do you think the Vatican came out with the Chinon Parchment?
I would love to hear your take on it?

Why did they burn deMolay?
for his money? no
for his heresy? the church admits no heresy just immorality
Immorality? if that was the case many Popes should have been burned

you think it was all Phillip behind their arrest and destruction?

I don't think the Vatican gets off so easy and yet they wanted to show the Templars were not heretics
Intersting their timing

These are very good questions. Too good in fact. Do you actually think you'll get an answer on this?

Roger's approach to this are thus:

First postulate. The Church is totally innocent with regard to the treatment of the Templars.
Second postulate: See First postulate.

Cajole the yesmen, intimidate those who disagree and ignore selected evidence in order to push and subsequently spin this postulate into main stream thinking. This he then gives it the epithet REAL HISTORY. REAL HISTORY means that which is sanctioned by the Jesuit Order.



They subsequently burned Jacques de Molay in 1314.

Now watch what will happen here now. If Roger decides to answer at all it will come in the form of a put down or a personal attack. At no point will he offer evidence as a rebuttal to this. He has to do this as it is the ONLY form of repost available to him.

Helena Blavatsky.

Baphomet is the scapegoat cast down at Yom Kippur.

Did I think Roger would give me an answer sometimes he does when he doesn't know it
I don't have 8000 dollars to buy the Chinon parchment...thats only for RICH serious researchers
but anybody know where I can get the formal document translation

special Apostolic Commission ad inquirendum appointed by Clement V: Bérenger Frédol, Cardinal Priest of the titular church of the Most Holy Nereus and Achilleus and nephew of the pope, Étienne de Suisy, cardinal priest of St. Cyriac in Thermis, Landolfo Brancacci, cardinal deacon of St. Angelo.

kept at the Vatican Secret Archives, with the reference Archivum Arcis, Armarium D 218.
ASV, Archivum Arcis, Arm. D 217

proof there is a SECRET Vatican Archives... proof they a important parchment has been lost or purposely lost so that researchers can't find it

that the parchment came out after the DaVinci Code phenomenon is interesting it appears the Vatican thinks this
will reveal that it was the French monarchist Phillip that was responsible for their burning

Is the Vatican afraid of perhaps the Templar curse and cry for Revenge?
The French Monarchy has been displaced though a alliance still remains between the Vatican and monarchy
in the Lazarist's Order and other orders

this is a clear example of Actions speak louder than hidden documents

DeMolay was burned at the stake
The document contains the absolution Pope Clement V gave to the Grand Master of the Temple, friar Jacques de Molay and to the other heads of the Order, after they had shown to be repented and asked to be forgiven by the Church; after the formal abjuration, which is compelling for all those who were even only suspected of heretical crimes, the leading members of the Templar Order are reinstated in the Catholic Communion and readmitted to receive the sacraments. The document, which belongs to the first phase of the trial against the Templars, when Pope Clement V was still convinced to be able to guarantee the survival of the military-religious order, meets the apostolic need to remove the shame of excommunication from the warrior friars, caused by their previous denial of Jesus Christ when tortured by the French Inquisitor.


the word FRENCH INQUISITOR ...is fascinating....the only Inquisition ..belongs to the Vatican
I believe the document states the church was PRESENT at the Interrogation

As several contemporary sources confirm, the pope ascertained that Templars were involved in some serious forms of immorality and he planned a radical reform of the order to subsequently merge it into one body with the other important military-religious order of the Hospitallers. The Act of Chinon, a requirement to carry out the reform, remained however a dead letter. The French Monarchy reacted by initiating a real blackmail mechanism, which would have then obliged Clement V to take a final decision during the Council of Vienna (1312): unable to oppose the will of the King of France, Phillip the Fair, who ordered the elimination of the Templars, the Pope, heard the opinion of the Council Fathers, and decided to abolish the Order «con norma irreformabile e perpetua» (bull Vox in excelso, 22nd March 1312). Clement V however stated that this suffered decision did not amount to an act of heretic condemnation, which could not be reached on the basis of the various inquiries carried out in the years prior to the Council. As a matter of fact, a regular trail would have been required in order to pass a sentence, including also the statement of the defensive position of the Order. But, according to the pontiff, the scandal aroused by the shameful accusations against the Templars (heresy, idolatry, homosexuality and obscene behaviour) would have dissuaded anyone, from wearing the templar habit and on the other hand, a delay on a decision regarding these issues would have produced the squandering of the great wealth the Christians had offered to the Order, charged with the duty to help fight against the enemies of the Faith in the Holy Land.

The church was concerned about the WEALTH of the order....there it is!!!....Yes Phillip wanted the wealth too and control of the church...getting rid of its army was important

the Interrogations were to know where all the money went? where was the relics

the problem was the Templars organization was spread out ...Scotland England Germany etc... the other rulers weren't so anti Templar but eventually at the VATICAN"S insistence the trial of the Templars were conducted ...Phillip didn't have jurisdiction in Scotland and England did he...it was the Vatican who could HUNT them down

Some Templars were ruthless no doubt about it
Turbull tells us that Templars had possessions in almost EVERY COUNTY in Scotland...pg 152 Rosslyn chapel revealed
Some land reverted back to the families who owned them or had them stolen by the Temple
Scottish lands didn't always end up in the Vatican's hands or Hospitaliar hands

The trials in England didn't consist of torture always
the king of England was more tolerant....why did the Vatican persist for the trials ...they admit DMolay was innocent of Heresy....and yet he burned...to keep a secret that the Vatican and only the Templars knew

If people wonder why the infatuation its because the history written doesn't add up to the actions taken

The skull represents:
...this material world,
...the nature and characteristics of this material world,
...the lower materialistic mind,
....being spiritually ignorant of our original Divine/Spirit Consciousness,
...the outward focused material consciousness,
….thinking that you are your body, mind and not your Spirit/soul,
….believing that you are a part of this delusion, illusionary, lower material world,
…..being totally forgetful of God and forgetful that you are a spark of God-pure Spirit/soul,

The skull symbolizes also the temporary nature of this lower, illusionary, material world and the body/mind.

The hourglass represents: the element of time in the this lower, illusionary, material, temporary world and the body. Time is ONLY a factor of this material world and the body. time's nature is about change in this material level of existance. time DOES NOT affect The Spirit/soul. The Spirit/soul-spark of God ONLY KNOWS Eternity. Eternity is a part of the nature and characteristic of the spark of God—The Spirit/soul and God.

Master Mason's degree

The church wants to absolve itself of the crime of burning DeMolay It does explain the scapegoat he became for the great losses in the Crusades...it was the Templars who were immoral and that is why we lost

Scapegoat with money...obviously the Templars denied Phillip and the Pope the MONEY


So many gave their lives their property and followed their Pope's instructions and yet the Crusades were a dismal failure
they did produce more revenue for the Pope with his own army that swore to him