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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 6:20 pm 
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High King
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Roger wrote:
Recent claims have been made to the effect that Sauniere - as a celebrant of Mass - adopted the Gallican Rite ( http://orthodoxwiki.org/Gallican_Rite )

Does anyone know of any evidence/testimony supporting this allegation?



Can you give us the source of these 'recent claims' please? Who said it, where and in what context so we might be able to help you.
(I do have a barge pole so thought I'd be first to comment as the silence was defening)

TD

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 8:41 pm 
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I have no idea who (Hermophyle) is!! This 'post' is found on - La Gazette de Rennes-le-Château - Newsfeed.

I have no idea how you would confirm that Sauniere practiced the 'Gallican' rite - and its liturgy. I think that on the internet i have seen a couple of sermons Sauniere gave .... but apart from finding someone who attended Saunieres church services????
I would also suggest looking at the teaching of the seminaries he attended, and where he trained as a priest? Maybe there is an undercurrent there?

Anyway, the rest of Hermophyle blog talks of the Gallican rite being Merovingian. I suppose one could look at that?

Enlightening for me is any of the works by Wallace-Hadrill (The Long Haired Kings, Early Germanic Kingship ... and the momnumental opus: The Frankish Church. The book the Frankish Church is invaluable for a picture of Merovingian church life. Perhaps somewhere in their church and beliefs one will find some evidence that you could compare ....??).

I dont know, perhaps analysing these is not enough ...difficult to know i think ...

I am currently looking at the very early Jerusalem liturgy around the Holy Sepulchre and the 'True Cross'.

Interesting to note that the poster saying Sauniere was a Gallican.. started with the legend of Mary Magdalene Martha and Lazarus. Hermophyle suggests Sauniere stopped at the library of Autun : ) (Following in the footsteps of Constantine, or more likely visiting Paray le Monial ; ) i bet ). He mentions the same 'legend' that Doumergue refers to in his latest book ....the responses to his comments are also interesting ...


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 10:19 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Interesting to note that the poster saying Sauniere was a Gallican.. started with the legend of Mary Magdalene Martha and Lazarus.


So whoever the poster is, we know they've at least read HBHG and Starbird. :roll:

Roger, I can't offer you anythig by way of proof, but for what it's worth this claim isn't new, I've heard it before. I think it's intended to link Sauniere to Doinel. Never seen any actual evidence of it, however.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 10:29 pm 
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think it's intended to link Sauniere to Doinel

Hi TCP,

Yes, from reading the responses to his comments it seems the people are into an alternative Gnostic church idea ....

And as we have seen, this is floated about regarding the crista and who had knowledge of it ... someone told me that there is another representation of this crista in a private house somewhere ..... in the region ..... cant remember where though ....

The Gnostic connection is via Le Cour .... i believe .....


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 10:46 pm 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
Can you give us the source of these 'recent claims' please? Who said it, where and in what context so we might be able to help you.


You've really taken to your new role as pillock in chief, haven't you!? I can't imagine how details on who made this claim, when, where and in what context would in any way affect whether or not you have any information about Sauniere officiating with the Gallican Rite.

But since you ask so very feckin' nicely...


Quote:
SAUNIERE LE GALLICAN
Postée le 09/12/2010 à 21h25
"La liturgie la plus ancienne, celle des mérovingiens, était la liturgie gallicane ancienne à ne pas confondre avec celle qui se pratique de nos jours dans les Églises qui se nomment (à mauvais escient) Église Gallicane ou Église des Gaules. Leur « tradition » remonte à Bossuet et au plus tôt à la Pagmatique sanction de Bourges de Charles VII." (Hermophyle)

Lire la suite.


http://hermetisme.over-blog.com/article ... 53697.html

Quote:
La liturgie la plus ancienne, celle des mérovingiens, était la liturgie gallicane ancienne à ne pas confondre avec celle qui se pratique de nos jours dans les Églises qui se nomment (à mauvais escient) Église Gallicane ou Église des Gaules. Leur « tradition » remonte à Bossuet et au plus tôt à la Pagmatique sanction de Bourges de Charles VII.

La liturgie gallicane, très chargée en symbolisme alchimique, est le rite occidental le plus ancien, il est différent du rite catholique romain.

N’en déplaise au cercle zététique qui suce le biberon de l’ancienne union des rationalistes, et aussi à ceux qui voient des légendes à tout ce que l’on peut raconter, il provient de l’Église crée par les apôtres qui débarquèrent aux Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer. C’est l’Église de Sainte Marie-Madeleine de sainte Marthe et celle de saint Lazare qui fut le premier évêque de Marseille. Elle rayonna à partir des reliques de sainte Anne amenées par les apôtres en la ville d’Apt et découvertes par Charlemagne en 801. C’est autour de ces reliques les plus vénérables de la chrétienté (la grand-mère du Christ est plus vénérable que saint Pierre) que s’édifia la « Rome » véritable qui fut ensuite copiée par le Vatican en des proportions grandioses.

Telle est la raison pour laquelle ce rite est apparenté de près au rite mozarabe d'Espagne et au rite ambroisien de Milan, il a été celui de l'église de Paris avant le VIe siècle. On le retrouve plus tard dans le rite romain qui le supplanta et le transforma et voulu le faire oublier. Certaines parties sont restées inchangées dans les cérémonies d’ordination avant 1968, car dans ce cas il s’agissait de ne pas se couper de la tradition apostolique pour ordonner d’une manière valide les évêques et prêtres.

Je signale en passant que ce rite des origines n’est plus respecté de nos jours et que de ce fait les évêques et prêtres ne sont plus réellement ordonnés et les cérémonies qu’ils célèbrent sont invalides. Les hosties ne sont pas consacrées et la communion des fidèles est nulle et non avenue ! C’est aussi l’opinion de l’Église traditionaliste et de certaines Églises Orthodoxes. L’Église Catholique actuelle est quasiment l’Église protestante des Luthériens qui célèbrent l’impanation car le pain de l’hostie reste le pain, fruit du travail des hommes, que le prêtre n’a plus le pouvoir de sacraliser, de « transmuter ». Il n’en a plus le pouvoir car la chaîne d’or qui le reliait aux apôtres, et donc aux langues de feu du cénacle, a été rompu à l’occasion de transformations insensées du concile Vatican II.

D’inspiration orientale ce rite fut introduit en Gaule par les Sainte Maries de la Mer tout imprégnée des textes alchimiques d’Alexandrie puis s’étendit jusqu’à Milan et au Nord de l'Italie, en Espagne, en Bretagne et en Irlande ou c’est l’Église celtique. On trouve même l'usage du rite gallican dans la région du Danube, au Sud-ouest de la Transylvanie, où le sang du légendaire Dracula n’est autre que la quintessence alchimique.

Malheureusement Pépin le bref défenseur du pape abolit la liturgie gallicane et Charlemagne couronné par le pape imposa le rite romain pour « renvoyer l’ascenseur » au souverain pontife.

Avant 1968 certains prêtres catholiques le pratiquaient marginalement et presque secrètement à l’abri des monastères. C’est ainsi que certains missionnaires le diffusèrent jusqu’au Québec, en Afrique et aux Antilles sous le vocable de sainte Anne.

Les sources de nos connaissances sur la liturgie gallicane sont formées par ce qu'on a appelé les Lettres de saint Germain de Paris, conservées à la Bibliothèque Municipale d'Autun sous le titre d'Expositio brevis antiquae liturgiae Gallicanae.

Si je parle de la liturgie de l’abbé Saunière, liturgie qu’il prêchait à la fin de sa vie prématurée car « le moment n’était pas venu » c’est que ce prêtre les avait découvertes à Narbonne, – ou il fut exilé un temps de sa cure de Rennes le Château, – dans les archives de l’archevêché ou elles se trouvent encore, surtout les textes mozarabes directement issues de la pure liturgie gallicane des mérovingiens. Par ailleurs ses voyages à Paris laissent supposer une visite fructueuse a la bibliothèque d’Autun.

Voilà, j’espère que ces quelques lignes vont orienter les chercheurs pour approfondir les raisons cachées de l’attitude de Béranger Saunière enfant terrible de l’Église malheureusement en avance sur son temps. Elle explique aussi l’attitude de l’Église désireuse de connaître les secrets de ce prêtre récalcitrant qui la gêne aux entournures. Et l’on comprend aisément que de pareille découverte aient pu changer la vie de Béranger au point de charger de symbole ésotérique son église et d’avoir une attitude irrévérencieuse envers ses supérieurs. N’en doutez pas, Béranger Saunière a encore bien des mystères dans son escarcelle. Je dois vous avouer que cet homme m’amuse beaucoup !

Bonne journée et à bientôt.


There... does that help you at all? (Don't bother answwering, it's sarcasm)


The above quote was what I found last night but I had trouble putting it on the forum and finally gave up, too tired. What I did find elsewhere was the link of the gallican rite to the ambrosian rite & celtic rite of which ISIS is involved in the ambrosian rite and therefore would be linked to Le Serpent rouge. IMHO I think outwardly it seems TCP is right about people desperately trying to find a link to Doinel but I also feel there is a link through to the marial-visions.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 10:59 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
think it's intended to link Sauniere to Doinel

Hi TCP,

Yes, from reading the responses to his comments it seems the people are into an alternative Gnostic church idea ....

And as we have seen, this is floated about regarding the crista and who had knowledge of it ... someone told me that there is another representation of this crista in a private house somewhere ..... in the region ..... cant remember where though ....

The Gnostic connection is via Le Cour .... i believe .....


I'm not convinced there actually was a Gnostic connection in Sauniere's case, but there was a cabal of run-up self-described Gnostic priests and bishops that Plantard was peripheral to, whose apostolic succession runs through Doinel. As Plantard was quite the synchretist himself, it wouldn't surprise me if all of the sudden Sauniere became a Gnostic for the narrative.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:09 pm 
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rain wrote:
The above quote was what I found last night but I had trouble putting it on the forum and finally gave up, too tired. What I did find elsewhere was the link of the gallican rite to the ambrosian rite & celtic rite of which ISIS is involved in the ambrosian rite and therefore would be linked to Le Serpent rouge. IMHO I think outwardly it seems TCP is right about people desperately trying to find a link to Doinel but I also feel there is a link through to the marial-visions.


There's a difference between people trying desperately to find a link and those trying desperately to forge one in the past-tense.

Think about it - Plantard decides he's a Saint-Clair, so that ropes in not only the Rosslyn Sinclairs but "Lady Caithness", then Doinel, then Blavatsky, and then it's "All About Isis"...).

(Rain - I hate to be persnicketty, but it's "Marian" apparitions, not Marial) :wink:

TCP

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:18 pm 
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One thing that does niggle me is why does it have to be proved that the documents Sauniere went to Paris for had to be the rite or at least it's intimated that he found the documents and always had it. In the website it refers to the les textes mozarabes as being in the archives so knowledge and practice of the rite is implied to be given to him and therefore the link comes from Billiard and it is a decision and missive to practice the rite openly before his death (thus if true creates the substantial proof).

Therefore it is my belief they are trying to prove a link somewhere else - to other controlling factions.

As Sandy says short of finding direct evidence that someone sat in front of Sauniere , heard & saw the mass or rite being practiced there is no evidence. That he knew of the rite would be a given being that he was French Priest you would have thought he had the historical knowledge due his ties to the ancien regime.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:30 pm 
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Quote:
You've really taken to your new role as pillock in chief, haven't you!? I can't imagine how details on who made this claim, when, where and in what context would in any way affect whether or not you have any information about Sauniere officiating with the Gallican Rite.

But since you ask so very feckin' nicely...



Wow look at you! Straight to the barricades everytime! I merely ask for a little more info and you are hurling abuse immediately. I do get the sense that you've spent too many years getting your own way and are finding it uncomfortable to be challenged to provide explanation.

If someone suggested that they had heard that the Moon was definitely made of cheese then I would hope that a few might entertain, however briefly, the notion that some proof might be a good thing.
The trouble is that the days are long gone when your word was accepted unequivocally by everyone. Some might have concluded a while ago that your impartiality was a thing of the past.
Was it Le Carré who used the narrative vehicle of 'seeding a legend'? Especially since old St Germanus promptly reared his ugly head.
The blog doesn't offer any real evidence but, as Tim points out, within a few short days we will have reached the 'we've already shown that....' stage from a standing start at 'Maybe...'

I'm glad Sandy mentioned the 'C' word, at least I'm not alone in imagining the allusion.

I must say how much I enjoy the convergence of yours and Sheilas writing styles. She affects that lanquid Patrician condescension so effortlessly whilst you let out the odd 'Feck' to ginger up the repartee. :wink:

As you well know one can learn so much about a piece of info from whence it came and the context in which it was presented. :wink:
Over fifty people had looked at your terse demand for information without hazarding a reply. I was merely inviting you to enlarge upon it in order that it might elicit some response.
Though I suspect someone of your omniscience wasn't actually looking for help at all merely starting a new pattern of depth charges to see what would come up.

BTW; Surely, shouldn't effective sarcasm be so blindingly obvious that it doesn't need flagging up ? :?

TD

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:33 pm 
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rain wrote:
One thing that does niggle me is why does it have to be proved that the documents Sauniere went to Paris for had to be the rite or at least it's intimated that he found the documents and always had it. In the website it refers to the les textes mozarabes as being in the archives so knowledge and practice of the rite is implied to be given to him and therefore the link comes from Billiard and it is a decision and missive to practice the rite openly before his death (thus if true creates the substantial proof).

Therefore it is my belief they are trying to prove a link somewhere else - to other controlling factions.

As Sandy says short of finding direct evidence that someone sat in front of Sauniere , heard & saw the mass or rite being practiced there is no evidence. That he knew of the rite would be a given being that he was French Priest you would have thought he had the historical knowledge due his ties to the ancien regime.


The Mozarabic Rite, the Gallican Rite, the Ambrosian Rite - these are neither hidden nor forbidden, nor were they so in Sauniere's day. Just because they're not performed by the Catholic Church doesn't make them heretical or terribly mysterious.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:34 pm 
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TCP wrote:
rain wrote:
The above quote was what I found last night but I had trouble putting it on the forum and finally gave up, too tired. What I did find elsewhere was the link of the gallican rite to the ambrosian rite & celtic rite of which ISIS is involved in the ambrosian rite and therefore would be linked to Le Serpent rouge. IMHO I think outwardly it seems TCP is right about people desperately trying to find a link to Doinel but I also feel there is a link through to the marial-visions.


There's a difference between people trying desperately to find a link and those trying desperately to forge one in the past-tense.

Think about it - Plantard decides he's a Saint-Clair, so that ropes in not only the Rosslyn Sinclairs but "Lady Caithness", then Doinel, then Blavatsky, and then it's "All About Isis"...).

(Rain - I hate to be persnicketty, but it's "Marian" apparitions, not Marial) :wink:

TCP

TCP


I actually don't mind when people correct me TCP, it's a good thing. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:38 pm 
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TCP wrote:
rain wrote:
One thing that does niggle me is why does it have to be proved that the documents Sauniere went to Paris for had to be the rite or at least it's intimated that he found the documents and always had it. In the website it refers to the les textes mozarabes as being in the archives so knowledge and practice of the rite is implied to be given to him and therefore the link comes from Billiard and it is a decision and missive to practice the rite openly before his death (thus if true creates the substantial proof).

Therefore it is my belief they are trying to prove a link somewhere else - to other controlling factions.

As Sandy says short of finding direct evidence that someone sat in front of Sauniere , heard & saw the mass or rite being practiced there is no evidence. That he knew of the rite would be a given being that he was French Priest you would have thought he had the historical knowledge due his ties to the ancien regime.


The Mozarabic Rite, the Gallican Rite, the Ambrosian Rite - these are neither hidden nor forbidden, nor were they so in Sauniere's day. Just because they're not performed by the Catholic Church doesn't make them heretical or terribly mysterious.

TCP


Considering the information the Catholic church has on it and has published I wouldn't think so, but it was practiced (i.e. toledo spain)in a vary small sphere and this is why the link is trying to be established.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:41 pm 
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I'm glad Sandy mentioned the 'C' word, at least I'm not alone in imagining the allusion.


TD,

I am interested in the existence of the archaeological artifact. That is all. I am not afraid to mention it, or refer to it.

Bottom line: Cherisey refers to a Gold Cross 'of Solomon' obtained by Childebert. Cherisey had seen fit to put these details into the Lobineau documents. I had translated bits of this slowly, but never really took any notice of it til IBJ started talking about the 'crista'.

As it happens, i am intrigued currently by the liturgies of early Jerusalem and the Holy Sepulchre, and the True Cross. Somehow i am seeing a link. At the moment, i am interested in the Gold Cross of Solomon, not the *crista* per se. No one has shown categorically why this 'gold cross' should be the crista .... anyway .....as far as i am concerned it is relevant because Cherisey and Plantard saw fit to add in into the mix.

Is it related to Sauniere? Who knows? Investigating just for the sheer heck of it, and where it leads is enough in my book : )


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2010 11:42 pm 
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but it was practiced (i.e. toledo spain)in a vary small sphere and this is why the link is trying to be established.

According to the blogger, its the Merovingian litturgy that would be important.

One has to look there.

And believe me, thats fascinating ....


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 12:42 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
but it was practiced (i.e. toledo spain)in a vary small sphere and this is why the link is trying to be established.

According to the blogger, its the Merovingian litturgy that would be important.

One has to look there.

And believe me, thats fascinating ....


This is what's fascinating to me (for the moment) the "rite" the gallican is believed to be associated with the oriental rites. By this we can derive that the catholic church could be referring to Persian/Indian/china? The most obvious is the Zoroastrians rituals of fire, tao & fire, Hindu God Shiva and Fire that involve the use of specialised wood and therefore ash.

Quote:
Mozarabic rite a lesson in evolution of rites
After the early period of persecutions came to an end, Christians began to develop more elaborate forms of worship, perhaps because it became possible to store and share rubrical ideas over time and geography, and because love for Christ inspired greater elaboration. Liturgical variety has always been assumed, by the Church, to be permissible in small details that do not touch upon articles of faith or morals. This variety is a natural result of the Church, i.e. the body of faithful, being in "a dialogue of love" with Jesus: this is how forms of worship are perceived by the Church—which can authoritatively, but not arbitrarily, "define and limit the usage of rites" (quotes from Ratzinger). G. S. Lee writes that the Church is always eager to "recognize the varying wants of her spiritual children, and to shape her devotional exercises in conformity to these". The Council of Toledo affirmed it to be "a form of worship grateful to the people" and the Council of Mantua, 1067, declared it to be free of heresy and "also worthy of praise".

[edit] Character of Mozarabic rite
While the liturgy used during the period of Islamic rule was very much like that to which St. Isidore put some finishing touches in the 7th century. During Islamic rule the pastors took more care, where practice of Christianity was permitted, to address the faithful during the Mass. The Bible was translated into Arabic during this period as well, and the liturgy was celebrated in Arabic.

Quote:
The Mozarabic Mass is longer in duration than that of the Roman rite. Imagery and ceremony are used extensively; its great beauty is shown in the support it received even after the Roman rite was installed throughout Iberia. Many learned theologians have praised it. Many hymns were written within the Mozarabic rite.

The Mozarabic rite may have emphasized the Blessed Virgin Mary's role even more than did the liturgy of Rome. It also exalts Mary by addressing her directly in prayer, which the Roman rite does not do.[citation needed]

The Mozarabic rite was the first to use ashes within the liturgical celebrations of the Church. Ashes were used prior to the Mozarabic rite, but this was done outside of liturgical events, e.g., marking people for penance.
The Breviary has a short and uncomplicated extra office (session of prayer) before the main morning office.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 1:39 am 
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rain wrote:
This is what's fascinating to me (for the moment) the "rite" the gallican is believed to be associated with the oriental rites. By this we can derive that the catholic church could be referring to Persian/Indian/china?


I believe "oriental" in this usage refers to Antiochene, Syriac, Coptic, Melchite, Maronite, Malabar etc., rather than non-Christian rites. Rites still used by churches in union with Roman Catholicism.

rain wrote:
Liturgical variety has always been assumed, by the Church, to be permissible in small details that do not touch upon articles of faith or morals. This variety is a natural result of the Church, i.e. the body of faithful, being in "a dialogue of love" with Jesus: this is how forms of worship are perceived by the Church—which can authoritatively, but not arbitrarily, "define and limit the usage of rites" (quotes from Ratzinger). G. S. Lee writes that the Church is always eager to "recognize the varying wants of her spiritual children, and to shape her devotional exercises in conformity to these". The Council of Toledo affirmed it to be "a form of worship grateful to the people" and the Council of Mantua, 1067, declared it to be free of heresy and "also worthy of praise".


Precisely. Variances that do not vary from articles of faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 2:10 am 
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TCP wrote:
rain wrote:
This is what's fascinating to me (for the moment) the "rite" the gallican is believed to be associated with the oriental rites. By this we can derive that the catholic church could be referring to Persian/Indian/china?


I believe "oriental" in this usage refers to Antiochene, Syriac, Coptic, Melchite, Maronite, Malabar etc., rather than non-Christian rites. Rites still used by churches in union with Roman Catholicism.

rain wrote:
Liturgical variety has always been assumed, by the Church, to be permissible in small details that do not touch upon articles of faith or morals. This variety is a natural result of the Church, i.e. the body of faithful, being in "a dialogue of love" with Jesus: this is how forms of worship are perceived by the Church—which can authoritatively, but not arbitrarily, "define and limit the usage of rites" (quotes from Ratzinger). G. S. Lee writes that the Church is always eager to "recognize the varying wants of her spiritual children, and to shape her devotional exercises in conformity to these". The Council of Toledo affirmed it to be "a form of worship grateful to the people" and the Council of Mantua, 1067, declared it to be free of heresy and "also worthy of praise".


Precisely. Variances that do not vary from articles of faith.

TCP


And what about the introduction of practices within the rites of more indigenous and older traditions outside the christian tradition?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 5:22 am 
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rain wrote:
TCP wrote:
rain wrote:
This is what's fascinating to me (for the moment) the "rite" the gallican is believed to be associated with the oriental rites. By this we can derive that the catholic church could be referring to Persian/Indian/china?


I believe "oriental" in this usage refers to Antiochene, Syriac, Coptic, Melchite, Maronite, Malabar etc., rather than non-Christian rites. Rites still used by churches in union with Roman Catholicism.

rain wrote:
Liturgical variety has always been assumed, by the Church, to be permissible in small details that do not touch upon articles of faith or morals. This variety is a natural result of the Church, i.e. the body of faithful, being in "a dialogue of love" with Jesus: this is how forms of worship are perceived by the Church—which can authoritatively, but not arbitrarily, "define and limit the usage of rites" (quotes from Ratzinger). G. S. Lee writes that the Church is always eager to "recognize the varying wants of her spiritual children, and to shape her devotional exercises in conformity to these". The Council of Toledo affirmed it to be "a form of worship grateful to the people" and the Council of Mantua, 1067, declared it to be free of heresy and "also worthy of praise".


Precisely. Variances that do not vary from articles of faith.

TCP


And what about the introduction of practices within the rites of more indigenous and older traditions outside the christian tradition?


What about them? How are we in a position to know?

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 7:32 am 
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Where have you seen this? I personally can't see the connection and it certainly wasn't why I asked, since I don't wish to discuss that topic on this forum.

Roger,

Which connection? The one to the Merovingians? The (for want of a better word) Gnostic connection?
That bigger picture???

Anyway, i feel there is a link.

And i didnt say that you posted the request to bring in the archaeological artifact - did i?

And im afraid you may not want to discuss it, but in the context of other discussions that have gone on (Magdalene, Merovingians, Gnostic circles, Sauniere) that have been related to an artifact ....that Cherisey links to all these elements may suggests a connection on some level.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 7:45 am 
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rain wrote:
TCP wrote:
rain wrote:
This is what's fascinating to me (for the moment) the "rite" the gallican is believed to be associated with the oriental rites. By this we can derive that the catholic church could be referring to Persian/Indian/china?


I believe "oriental" in this usage refers to Antiochene, Syriac, Coptic, Melchite, Maronite, Malabar etc., rather than non-Christian rites. Rites still used by churches in union with Roman Catholicism.

rain wrote:
Liturgical variety has always been assumed, by the Church, to be permissible in small details that do not touch upon articles of faith or morals. This variety is a natural result of the Church, i.e. the body of faithful, being in "a dialogue of love" with Jesus: this is how forms of worship are perceived by the Church—which can authoritatively, but not arbitrarily, "define and limit the usage of rites" (quotes from Ratzinger). G. S. Lee writes that the Church is always eager to "recognize the varying wants of her spiritual children, and to shape her devotional exercises in conformity to these". The Council of Toledo affirmed it to be "a form of worship grateful to the people" and the Council of Mantua, 1067, declared it to be free of heresy and "also worthy of praise
Precisely. Variances that do not vary from articles of faith.

TCP


And what about the introduction of practices within the rites of more indigenous and older traditions outside the christian tradition?


What about them? How are we in a position to know?

TCP


:lol: I can't expect you to be my encylopedia/wikipedia.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 8:10 am 
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TCP wrote:
bergeredearcadie wrote:
Interesting to note that the poster saying Sauniere was a Gallican.. started with the legend of Mary Magdalene Martha and Lazarus.


So whoever the poster is, we know they've at least read HBHG and Starbird. :roll:

Roger, I can't offer you anythig by way of proof, but for what it's worth this claim isn't new, I've heard it before. I think it's intended to link Sauniere to Doinel. Never seen any actual evidence of it, however.

TCP


He asked for evidence not proof. The number of people around who do not know the difference between evidence and proof is astonishing.

I have not seen any evidence for this, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Unlike some on here I do not THINK I know all there is to know about everything in the entire cosmos. If I don't know I generally shut up, I don't have an inferiority complex that I'm a slave to.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 3:24 pm 
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Roger wrote:
My question was a simple one: "Does anyone have any evidence to support the allegation that Sauniere used the Gallican Rite?" That's it. I didn't ask for dubious interpretations of this allegation, nor for any information on the Rite itself. I take it that the answer thus far is a resounding "NO".


NO. Better? :lol:

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 3:32 pm 
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You may have opened a can of worms here Roger...

Rain

Quote:
You cite - The Mozarabic rite was the first to use ashes within the liturgical celebrations of the Church. Ashes were used prior to the Mozarabic rite, but this was done outside of liturgical events, e.g., marking people for penance.
Quote:
Then you ask - And what about the introduction of practices within the rites of more indigenous and older traditions outside the christian tradition?
The church would have us believe that the ceremonial use of ashes on penitents was to remind us of the inevitability of our forthcoming deaths, i.e. dust thou art, and to dust will return. The church will cite several Biblical passages to illustrate the relationship of penitence with ashes, apart from one... that of the Red Heffer; a can of worms that they, and perhaps Roger, would prefer not to open. The Jews weren't the only people to believe that the ashes of burnt whole offerings were sacred, its just that Jews, thanks to Moses insistence that the whole Hebrew nation offer sacrifices before Yahweh, had to adhere to priestly purity laws, and so they became vulnerable to Adam's transgression, that of appearing unclean in the presence of Yahweh, a sin that made one liable to incur the wrath of the angel with the fiery sword; the true significance of penitence and ashes!

John


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 3:48 pm 
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Thats right Roger, nobody, apart from a member of Sauniere's congregation, nobody could ever answer your question definitely. The only avenue left is that Sauniere or someone else made a note of it, and as the weight of this forum failed to respond, no notes on the subject must exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for evidence..
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2010 4:00 pm 
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High King
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
Wow look at you! Straight to the barricades everytime!


Don't be such a hypocrite, and such a transparent one at that.
The tone of your missive produced exactly the level of irritation you were aiming for.
Of course... you can plead stupidity... That's up to you.



I'm sorry that you live in such a cynical world that you choose to interpret anything I say so negatively. However I appreciate that its not your fault and am happy to forgive you especially at this festive time.
One thing does worry me though; If you claim I intend to cause irritation and then, knowing that, you demonstrate that irritation so fulsomely then surely it cannot be me who is the foolish one ? :wink:

I suppose it only remains for me to ask YOU if you have any evidence that Sauniere practised the Gallician Rite?
Evidence that you do actually want to discuss on this, or any other Forum ?

Merry Christmas,
TD

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