Arcadia Discussion Zone

So did you know that Hélion de Villeneuve, brother of Saint Roseline (abbess of the "Celle aux Arcs") feast day 17th January, was the 25th Grand Master of the Knights of St John and legend has it that he slew dragons.


According to Jean Luc Chaumeil this is Philip de Cherisey emerging from the jet mine at Serbaïrou. Where the Alcor stone is.

Roscoe
As you know, the worship of trees predates the building of woodhenges. These early wooden temples appeared around 3,100 BC across Europe, a timeline that appears significant in several places around the world, like Egypt for instance. According to archaeological speculation, most of these European temples were, for some unknown reason, ritually burnt down as soon as they were built? This heralded in the construction of stonehenges on the same sites. Jesus' death on a wooden cross is reminiscent of tree worship, and I suspect that crucifixion was initially a means of sacrifice, a practice I believe originated in Persia?

To my point; the practice of hanging sacrificed animals in the branches of trees is a truly ancient one, and this pagan act lingered on in France well into the 4th century AD, as this quote illustrates...

What HL discovered may well have been the remnants of a continuing pagan rite.

Sheila, did you mention a stone circle in the area?

Has anyone any knowledge of any megalithic burials (mounds or dolmen) in the vicinity?

Thanks
John

I would not put a lot of money on the "inscription" on the ALCOR stone that only appeared on a photo "made" by Plantard.

But for the ones interested in the Christ au lievre painting in RLB, here is an interesting "real RLC stone":



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There are pagan practices in evidence all over this area including the Ariege. Like I keep posting:

“In the Aude, the peasants rather believe in the malignant spirit, the fairies and the underground geniuses than with the Virgin and the Angels”
Gaston Jourdanne: Contribution to the Folklore of the Aude, 1900

The west coast of Ireland is the same.

The Old Ways were and still are just hovering under the surface. Sauniere was born into this and into the Cathar legacy. Remember that the Cathars were only at Montsegur for 40 years they didn't build the castle. Nor Queribus, nor Peyrepertuse, nor Puilaurens.

What we have here is a suppressed belief system.

I think that's a rap by the look of things. I don't suppose you are going to say precisely where that rock is are you?

Remember that Joséphin Péladan persistently boasted that he knew the whereabouts of the burial place of Jesus. Jesus, the dead man, (L'Homme Mort) points down to a plateau with his left hand.

The expression “lever un Lièvre” (to pick up a Hare), is a phrase that means to bring something of importance up to date. Boudet allegedly wrote in a book, with three versions dated 1891, 1914 and another in 1914, about, the born again brother of Mary of Bethany, Lazarus and the book is called “Lazare Véni Foras!”(Lazarus step forward).

In this book Boudet told us to think about a Hare which encourages us to think about a treasure. We are also told in the book that Lazarus came to Rennes les Bains to take the waters there. Boudet informs us in this book that this is the only essential thing and that there is a cavern that serves as a “temporary shelter”, in this cave we will make or see a burning hearth and this place will be marked with or by the image of the shroud.


The books are considered by some researchers to be forgeries (imagine my surprise ), the 1914 version with 317 pages has page 295 missing, the other 1914 version has 327 pages. Researcher Pierre Jarnac has reportedly found similar text in a book written in 1924 by R.P. Charles Para. The book was advertised in an esoteric publication and put on sale by a certain Nacim Djama who has been given a traceable address in Toulouse; however it appears that no researcher has followed up on this address. Perhaps someone could explain to me why anyone would want to forge this. Perhaps someone can describe to me what a forgery is, a forgery to me is a bogus copy of an original. So if I have a recently made copy of an original with useful information on it do I throw this away simply because it is a "recently made bogus copy of an original".

I have not dismissed the notion that Jesus himself is buried in this area. This doesn't mean that I believe it either it is merely that I do not have a closed mind to the possibility. To the handicapped Christian of course Jesus doesn't have a grave and therefore the possibility of finding his grave cannot be entertained.

I would remind you of the letter that Henry Lincoln had received from a priest in the UK following the Chronicle programmes of the 1970s saying that he was involved in the study of documents which had been found in France saying that Jesus had survived the crucifixion. This letter has caused some friction between Henry Lincoln and Michael Baigent because Baigent has published the priest's name after Lincoln had promised never to reveal the priest's name.

This painting is very special. Different details one can detect (of course only if one wants to detect these things, for others it is just another bloody painting hanging somewhere in a uninportant place).

For example: the 3 rocks under his right feet. Not really an "artistic way" to express a certain sentiment but probably more the focus on another important detail in the surroundings of the 2 Rennes.

I agree Roscoe and FMH that rock does look like a match
from here

Roscoe I have seen that painting before can remember the artist

Very cool

I will point out that the rock he is sitting on appears rose colored

Roscoe I love that video ...

The Pietà you are discussing is a copy of this Pietà by Anton Van Dyck...but in reverse.

and before anyone starts...there is no hare...there is no spider.

Well, naturally - the Old Religion is never fully eradicated in remote areas, especially in the mountains where the denizens have far less contact with foreign influences.

I don't know what it has to do with the Cathars, however - simply because they took to the mountains for safety doesn't mean they subsumed the old beliefs and ritual practices in ways the Romans, Visigoths and Franks never could. It's called bruxeria - witchcraft; and it never died out in that part of Europe.

TCP

hmm...and here we have Lamentation by Paulus Pontius.

the cloak on the left is red btw.
which is why his muscles are so exagerated.

Oh, fer crissakes, people - it's called the Akelarre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akelarre_(witchcraft)

Akelarre is the Basque term meaning sabbat, coven or ritual meeting of witches. It is also found in Spanish with the spelling aquelarre. It is the place where basque witches hold meetings.

The most common etymology is that meaning meadow (larre) of the he-goat (aker). The spanish inquisition accused people of worshipping a black goat, related to the worship of Satan. An alternative explanation could be that it originally was alkelarre, alka being a local name for the herb Dactilis hispanica. In this case, the first etymology would have been a manipulation of the Inquisition[1].

Nevertheless the black he-Goat or Akerbeltz is known in Basque mythology to be an attribute of goddess Mari and is found in a Roman age slab as a votive dedication: Aherbelts Deo (to the god Aherbelts) (see: Aquitanian language).

Similar celebrations spread over the Pyrenees mountains in the Basque Country, Aragon, Catalonia and Occitania. Shepherds brought these believes on the way of their annual migration of sheep (transhumance) from mountains to the flatlands.

- "Ajunt de Bruixes", in Catalonia, the most famous of all being celebrated in Canigou mountain, origin of the storms that witches sent to the plain.
- Turbon mountain, in Huesca.
- The mountains on top of the village Pals, in Andorra.
- Anaga massif in Tenerife, Canary Islands.
- Salamanca cave, in Salamanca.

Where does anyone *(besides Roscoe, of course) see Cathars in this scenario?

I swear, being the lone voice crying in the wilderness can be incredibly frustrating at times.

TCP

... well ... I'm tempted to start ... I mean, in the sense that one could interpret the painting thus, if one were so minded, absent any definitive attestation to the contrary by the artist (btw, you posted an interesting piece earlier about the artist, and an inscription on the back of the painting, but sadly it's been deleted). People interpret things in works of art all the time; they may rarely be correct in their interpretation, but it's not an unreasonable thing to do. The way I see the RLB painting (never actually seen it for real, unfortunately, because that church always seems to be locked - one of these days I'll pluck up the courage to go and ask someone for a key ) is, there is what might possibly be taken to be the image of a hare in the figure of the man, and what might possibly be taken to be the image of a spider on the ground next to him. I don't lose any sleep over it, but it has some mild intrigue, I think.

But I reckon the rock formation is much more interesting, actually.

The painting is relevant to the RLC affair because it was inserted into it - I believe - by Gerard de Sede, who told Henry Lincoln about it. I can't recall when. Pre- the black eye incident, obviously. Fairly early days, I think. Or maybe it's in de Sede's book. Either way I recall Lincoln saying - I think in his guide to the Aude film - that when he went to RLB to check it out, there were inconsistencies in the way that de Sede had described either the painting itself, or its placement, that led Lincoln to surmise that de Sede had never actually seen the painting in-situ, and had been told about it. Which given what we know about de Sede's writing collaborations, probably means Pierre Plantard. So it has some relevance, too.

I deleted my post which said... that on the back of said painting we can see,

Peint en 1825
par J.B.B. Rouck
professeur de dessin à Limoux

hmm...i think not, there is a discrepency 'tween frame & toile...it seems it could well be the work of Henri Gasc, have a look at one i posted up earlier in relation to the area of Pieusse.
This is the painting i was talking about over in "Questions"...it also hangs in the church of Rennes les Bains

Thanks. I hadn't ever seen anything about an inscription before, so I was curious. I'll look again at the pictures.

There's a hare on each leg (there's what looks like a dove on the arm). There's no spider.

The rock however is more interesting. My guess is that fmh's photograph is a shot from beyond the rock in the painting where the ground seems to drop away.

This painting in Rennes Les Bains church is tucked away in a dark place. If you didn't know it was there you'd miss it and indeed you can't see it anyway because it's too dark. The only way to examine it is to take a flash photo and look at the result later. There's an interesting carving to the left as you open the door of Jesus being baptised.

de Sede said ( ) that the crown of thorns was a spider, I don't think so. The crown of thorns is a small constellation between Hercules and Bootes.

I agree that the hare is much more compelling as a possible concealed image than the spider, which is likely nothing of the sort. Although I recall Henry Lincoln speculating - albeit in a very casual, "I don't suppose there's anything to this, but it's kinda interesting" sort of way - about a linguistic connection between "arraignee" (spider) and "a Rennes" (to Rennes - as in RLC, as in pointing at same).

I need to look at the RLB section in his Aude film again - the cemetery parts were interesting, and he spends a fair amount of time in the church looking at that particular painting. I remember him saying, as you have, how dark it is in there, and how hard it is to make out the detail of anything without the aid of artificial light.

Guys, you really are not following this are you...there is no hare.

The painting which was probably executed by Henry Gasc is based on The Lamentation by Paulus Pontius, which in turn was based on the Pietà by Anton Van Dyck and there was no so called "Rennes mystery" way back in the 1600's....your "hare" is visible in both the originals btw...muscle details is all.

However imho it is the background scenery in Gasc's two painting i showed above that is interesting.

Since the old lady died who had the key before, it is for some years now with Madame Delmas. She lives in the first house behind the Mairie on the left side if you drive towards Bugarach. The best time to see her is before lunch time.

Thanks, Eginolf, that's very useful to know, and has been duly noted. I'm not very good at asking people for things, but I've long wanted to see inside that church, and to view the painting (hare or no hare , plus it sounds like I might need a torch to see it properly), so I'll endeavour to go and see Madame Delmas and obtain the key, the next time I'm down there. Many thanks.

Richard

Don't forget your camera

John

I have two legs, from my hips to the ground
And when I moves them, they walks around
And when I lifts them, they climbs the stairs
And when I shaves them, they ain't got hares...

Just a little afternoon levity to diffuse the tension...

TCP

Hurumph! I nearly choked on my MORNING coffee.....

I had an experience which disturbed my wife and myself for days whilst in Rennes les Bains. We walked down to the ford on the south side of Rennes les Bains and met a man on horseback riding down the middle of the river towards the village. He looked every bit like the devil in Sauniere's church bare from the waist up with a brown swarthy skin and black curly hair he had the most evil looking dog I've ever seen over on the opposite bank from ourselves. He asked us IN ENGLISH what the time was. I was decidedly uncomfortable there was something about him that disturbed me and we were happy to get away from him.

We then went to Rennes les Bains church and as we came out a woman, who had not been there when we went in, was sat on the step outside and spoke to us again IN ENGLISH she wished us good day and then said something which made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. She asked us if we had met someone coming down the river. As we walked away from her the bells in the church began to ring.

We had met a young girl earlier who was sat in the middle of nowhere reading a book. She also spoke to us in English.

The both of us didn't sleep for days.