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 Post subject: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2010 4:31 pm 
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as pictured in ben's "illustrated guide"...

question...which side did the spear pierce?

p. 16 of the guide...stained glass window...
piercing is on jesus' own right side

p. 28 station 13 jesus dies on the cross...
piercing on jesus' left?!?

p. 30 station 14 jesus is laid in the tomb...
piercing on his left

okay...i have never been to rlc...so i depend on the pictures of others...

what are some of your opinions regarding the piercing?
i recall that it is on the right (scriptures)...is my memory wrong?

i have ordered ben's second guide...i look forward to it :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 1:56 pm 
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no one has opinion or comment?

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 2:11 pm 
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to be honest this wasn't something I noticed. I'll take another look at the end of the month when I'm back there


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 2:19 pm 
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thanks...

i will try to find photos to post.

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 2:27 pm 
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Paula,

We have debated this before. No one knows what side Jesus was 'speared' in, the Gospels i believe do not say. Just that he was speared... Gospel of John....

"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced
. "

Various art etc depicts either side.

As for its authenticity, several scholars tink it some kind of gloss, to reflect an OT prophecy. Others, to 'prove' Jesus was dead on the Cross, because there was doubt about what had happened to Jesus.

Johns Gospel was written later than the other Gospels (where it is not reported i believe) and by the time John sat down to write his Gospel he had to deal with new challenges regarding the life and death of Jesus.


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 2:49 pm 
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thanks sally.
so sorry to repeat a previous discussion
:(

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 2:57 pm 
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thanks sally.
so sorry to repeat a previous discussion


Hey, you dont have to be sorry.

And anyway, i am always bringing up stuff people have discussed before.

Also, my name isnt Sally :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 3:36 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
thanks sally.
so sorry to repeat a previous discussion


Hey, you dont have to be sorry.

And anyway, i am always bringing up stuff people have discussed before.

Also, my name isnt Sally :wink:


sorry sandy :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:01 pm 
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Theologian Albert Barnes seems to think the wound was on the left side:

"There can be no doubt that such a stroke from the strong arm of a Roman soldier would have caused death, if he had not been already dead; and it was, doubtless, to furnish this conclusive proof that he was actually dead, and that an atonement had thus been made for mankind, that John mentions so particularly this fact. Let the following circumstances be remembered, showing that death must have ensued from such a wound:

1st. The Saviour was elevated but a little from the ground, so as to be easily reached by the spear of a soldier.

2nd. The wound must have been transversely upward, so as to have penetrated into the body, as he could not have stood directly under him.

3rd. It was probably made with a strong arm and with violence.

4th. The spear of the Roman soldier was a lance which tapered very gently to a point, and would penetrate easily.

5th. The wound was comparatively a large wound. It was so large as to admit the hand (Joh 20:27); but for a lance thus tapering to have made a wound so wide as to admit the hand, it must have been at least four or five inches in depth, and must have been such as to have made death certain. If it be remembered that this blow was probably in the left side, the conclusion is inevitable that death would have been the consequence of such a blow."

from Barnes' New Testament Notes


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:05 pm 
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that spear then...determines whether one group or another group caused his death...
no?
thanks for the links and the reply.
:-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:08 pm 
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VII. What Are the Odds That Jesus Was Speared?

Though he must have had at least a 33% chance of not having died on the cross, John records a spear wound. It has been said that the description of the wound pouring out blood and water (19:34) suggests a mortal wound, being a blow near the heart (McDowell, citing James Thompson, E.H. Day, and William Stroud: 1st ed., p. 198, § 10.4A.1B.1C; 2nd ed., pp. 223-5, § 9.6A.1B.1C). Of course, this is probably an invention--there was a belief that the messiah came "with water and blood" (1 John 5:6-8), representing baptism and death. Consequently, several church fathers (Ambrose, Augustin, and Chrysostom in particular) understood this spearing passage symbolically, not literally: the blood represented the eucharist; the water, baptism. Perhaps also this referred to the Jewish tradition of the time that the rock in the wilderness that Moses smote twice "poured out blood at the first stroke, and water at the second" (Shemoth Rabba, folio 122), the sign of God's grace and the gift of life (and Christ was understood by Paul as representing this rock: 1 Cor. 10:4). Moreover, John is alone in having Jesus perform a transmutation of water to wine (at Cana, 2:1ff.), and this is unlikely to be coincidence. The same symbolism is no doubt intended there. Thus, the wound thus testified to the fact that this was the messiah, and it could therefore be an invention for that purpose. John himself already reports a scriptural reason to invent the spearing (19:37), and makes suspiciously excessive assertions of its truth (19:35).

But even supposing this wound to be genuine, anyone who knows anything about anatomy will agree that the only place in the body where a noticeable amount of water or any clear liquid would ever be visible, along with blood, to a medically ignorant soldier a spear's length away, is the large intestine (and even then only abnormally, e.g. diarrhea), suggesting a wound that is unlikely to be fatal until many days later. I conclude this after consulting several real doctors, contrary to McDowell's citation of Michael Green (1st ed., p. 199, § 10.4A.1B.1C; 2nd ed., p. 225, § 9.6A.1B.1C), since we do not know that the blood did not spurt (the description is too brief and vague for such claims), and blood pouring from a vein does not spurt in any case--only that from an artery does. Moreover, the effect of a flow of distinctly separated serum and clotted blood, visible to a distant layman, is exceedingly unlikely. Unabsorbed water from the large intestine is far more likely in such a case, and even that would only occur if Jesus were suffering from some sort of medical condition that would cause an abnormal accumulation of water there. One might imagine a blow to a full bladder as having the same visible effect, but there are two reasons to discount this: struck from below, the bladder is well-guarded behind one of the thickest bones in the human body and thus is unlikely even to be targeted by a soldier, much less actually pierced from that angle, and it is inconceivable that a man who endured hours of beatings and crucifixion would be able to hold his water throughout.

Munro and Assaf and those other amazing survivals mentioned earlier (Section V) probably occur, let's say, no more than 1 in 1000 times, but a spear wound to the large intestine, though likely to kill in time, is nothing compared to the wounds these people temporarily survived. I must say the odds of surviving such a wound for up to a week must be at least 10%. Throw in the chances of surviving a partial day of crucifixion (33%), and we get a chance of survival, with the spear wound, of 0.33 x 0.10 = 3.3%. With misdiagnosis as well, we get a final chance of 0.00599 x 0.033 = 0.00019767 (roughly 1 in 5000).

But the account of his being speared is illogical and late. It appears only in John, the last of the gospels to be written (after 90 AD). There, soldiers decide not to break his legs because he is dead, and then spear him to make sure he is dead. This is contradictory and inexplicable behavior. The spear wound later comes up in the context of the doubting Thomas story, which also only appears in John. As a late insertion in the story, it looks an awful lot like a rhetorical "vicarious conversion" aimed at answering arguments of skeptics, and being late this is to be expected: such doubts had certainly been voiced by then, and John would have liked to answer them (see also Main Argument). Thus John has as much a motive to invent the spear wound as he has to invent the entire Thomas story, which, after all, is found in no other account, not even in the writings of Paul. All three facts create great doubt that Jesus was stabbed with a spear. This makes survival even more likely. The odds that the spear story is false, based on the fact that three earlier accounts fail to mention it, that John has several rhetorical reasons to invent it, and the account of it does not make sense, I think must be at least 75%. This gives us a 75% chance that the odds of survival and misdiagnosis are 0.0019767 and a 25% chance that they are 0.00019767, for a combined chance of (0.75 x 0.0019767) + (0.25 x 0.00019767) = 0.0015319425 (0.15%).

One might argue that the "not breaking his legs" account must be dropped if we drop the spearing account. In fact, some argue that John felt the need to claim that Christ's bones were not broken in support of prophecy, as is stated explicitly in John 19:36, and many commentators find a connection with the passover-prohibition on bone-breaking, based on Exodus 12.46 and Numbers 9.12, and John's other predilections for such an analogy. Of course, the same passover rule also prohibits taking the flesh outside the house, which doesn't fit here, and John's words are also taken directly from Psalm 34:20, a passage which discusses righteous men in general, and has no overt connection with the messiah or crucifixion or anyone's death. Still, John alone has Jesus buried in the same place he is crucified (19:41), which could be meant as fulfilling the prophecy that the bones never left their house. So there are good reasons for John to invent the whole leg-breaking story to justify his passover lamb analogy (maybe even drawing on a real practice: see Note 3). But even if John invented the story of the leg-breaking, we are still left with no reason to think Jesus' legs were broken, and if the leg-breaking story is true, John still tells us Jesus' legs weren't broken, and no other gospel claims otherwise.

The spearing also has a scriptural reason to be invented or mentioned. Since it is taken from an actual messianic passage in Zechariah 12, it could reasonably be expected to be about the messiah and thus anyone in John's position might assume it ought to apply to Jesus, or they would want it to apply, to "prove" Jesus was the messiah. But that passage also mentions other things, like the blinding of the world's horses, and the besieging of Jerusalem at the same time as the coming of the messiah, which John omits. Thus, he is borrowing only what he wants to use. Our question is thus "why?" The use of the wound to have the symbolism of blood and water and to dramatize the Doubting Thomas story give the most obvious reasons, as I note above. It is also possible that in this or even also the leg-breaking account John may have needed a scriptural passage to justify what really happened. But this is less likely given: (1) the illogic of spearing him after leaving his legs alone, (2) the fact that it dovetails with the already-suspicious Doubting Thomas story and allows the symbolic introduction of blood and water, and (3) it is not mentioned by anyone else, including the three earlier evangelists.

So the conclusion stands so far that the odds of survival and misdiagnosis are (0.75 x 0.0019767) + (0.25 x 0.00019767) = 0.001532 (0.15%).


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:08 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meist ... ms_002.jpg

his right here...

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:09 pm 
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so, the gospel of John only...
this interests me.

much esoteric well, stuff...focus on this gospel...(of the accepted)...so it is important to understand it (imho)

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:19 pm 
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methinks that on the right...it would have pierced his lungs...thereby producing both water (from the pleural sac) and blood...from the body.

did sauniere try to communicate throught these stations?
through the passion?

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:20 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
VII. What Are the Odds That Jesus Was Speared?

Though he must have had at least a 33% chance of not having died on the cross, John records a spear wound. It has been said that the description of the wound pouring out blood and water (19:34) suggests a mortal wound, being a blow near the heart (McDowell, citing James Thompson, E.H. Day, and William Stroud: 1st ed., p. 198, § 10.4A.1B.1C; 2nd ed., pp. 223-5, § 9.6A.1B.1C). Of course, this is probably an invention--there was a belief that the messiah came "with water and blood" (1 John 5:6-8), representing baptism and death. Consequently, several church fathers (Ambrose, Augustin, and Chrysostom in particular) understood this spearing passage symbolically, not literally: the blood represented the eucharist; the water, baptism. Perhaps also this referred to the Jewish tradition of the time that the rock in the wilderness that Moses smote twice "poured out blood at the first stroke, and water at the second" (Shemoth Rabba, folio 122), the sign of God's grace and the gift of life (and Christ was understood by Paul as representing this rock: 1 Cor. 10:4). Moreover, John is alone in having Jesus perform a transmutation of water to wine (at Cana, 2:1ff.), and this is unlikely to be coincidence. The same symbolism is no doubt intended there. Thus, the wound thus testified to the fact that this was the messiah, and it could therefore be an invention for that purpose. John himself already reports a scriptural reason to invent the spearing (19:37), and makes suspiciously excessive assertions of its truth (19:35).

But even supposing this wound to be genuine, anyone who knows anything about anatomy will agree that the only place in the body where a noticeable amount of water or any clear liquid would ever be visible, along with blood, to a medically ignorant soldier a spear's length away, is the large intestine (and even then only abnormally, e.g. diarrhea), suggesting a wound that is unlikely to be fatal until many days later. I conclude this after consulting several real doctors, contrary to McDowell's citation of Michael Green (1st ed., p. 199, § 10.4A.1B.1C; 2nd ed., p. 225, § 9.6A.1B.1C), since we do not know that the blood did not spurt (the description is too brief and vague for such claims), and blood pouring from a vein does not spurt in any case--only that from an artery does. Moreover, the effect of a flow of distinctly separated serum and clotted blood, visible to a distant layman, is exceedingly unlikely. Unabsorbed water from the large intestine is far more likely in such a case, and even that would only occur if Jesus were suffering from some sort of medical condition that would cause an abnormal accumulation of water there. One might imagine a blow to a full bladder as having the same visible effect, but there are two reasons to discount this: struck from below, the bladder is well-guarded behind one of the thickest bones in the human body and thus is unlikely even to be targeted by a soldier, much less actually pierced from that angle, and it is inconceivable that a man who endured hours of beatings and crucifixion would be able to hold his water throughout.

Munro and Assaf and those other amazing survivals mentioned earlier (Section V) probably occur, let's say, no more than 1 in 1000 times, but a spear wound to the large intestine, though likely to kill in time, is nothing compared to the wounds these people temporarily survived. I must say the odds of surviving such a wound for up to a week must be at least 10%. Throw in the chances of surviving a partial day of crucifixion (33%), and we get a chance of survival, with the spear wound, of 0.33 x 0.10 = 3.3%. With misdiagnosis as well, we get a final chance of 0.00599 x 0.033 = 0.00019767 (roughly 1 in 5000).

But the account of his being speared is illogical and late. It appears only in John, the last of the gospels to be written (after 90 AD). There, soldiers decide not to break his legs because he is dead, and then spear him to make sure he is dead. This is contradictory and inexplicable behavior. The spear wound later comes up in the context of the doubting Thomas story, which also only appears in John. As a late insertion in the story, it looks an awful lot like a rhetorical "vicarious conversion" aimed at answering arguments of skeptics, and being late this is to be expected: such doubts had certainly been voiced by then, and John would have liked to answer them (see also Main Argument). Thus John has as much a motive to invent the spear wound as he has to invent the entire Thomas story, which, after all, is found in no other account, not even in the writings of Paul. All three facts create great doubt that Jesus was stabbed with a spear. This makes survival even more likely. The odds that the spear story is false, based on the fact that three earlier accounts fail to mention it, that John has several rhetorical reasons to invent it, and the account of it does not make sense, I think must be at least 75%. This gives us a 75% chance that the odds of survival and misdiagnosis are 0.0019767 and a 25% chance that they are 0.00019767, for a combined chance of (0.75 x 0.0019767) + (0.25 x 0.00019767) = 0.0015319425 (0.15%).

One might argue that the "not breaking his legs" account must be dropped if we drop the spearing account. In fact, some argue that John felt the need to claim that Christ's bones were not broken in support of prophecy, as is stated explicitly in John 19:36, and many commentators find a connection with the passover-prohibition on bone-breaking, based on Exodus 12.46 and Numbers 9.12, and John's other predilections for such an analogy. Of course, the same passover rule also prohibits taking the flesh outside the house, which doesn't fit here, and John's words are also taken directly from Psalm 34:20, a passage which discusses righteous men in general, and has no overt connection with the messiah or crucifixion or anyone's death. Still, John alone has Jesus buried in the same place he is crucified (19:41), which could be meant as fulfilling the prophecy that the bones never left their house. So there are good reasons for John to invent the whole leg-breaking story to justify his passover lamb analogy (maybe even drawing on a real practice: see Note 3). But even if John invented the story of the leg-breaking, we are still left with no reason to think Jesus' legs were broken, and if the leg-breaking story is true, John still tells us Jesus' legs weren't broken, and no other gospel claims otherwise.

The spearing also has a scriptural reason to be invented or mentioned. Since it is taken from an actual messianic passage in Zechariah 12, it could reasonably be expected to be about the messiah and thus anyone in John's position might assume it ought to apply to Jesus, or they would want it to apply, to "prove" Jesus was the messiah. But that passage also mentions other things, like the blinding of the world's horses, and the besieging of Jerusalem at the same time as the coming of the messiah, which John omits. Thus, he is borrowing only what he wants to use. Our question is thus "why?" The use of the wound to have the symbolism of blood and water and to dramatize the Doubting Thomas story give the most obvious reasons, as I note above. It is also possible that in this or even also the leg-breaking account John may have needed a scriptural passage to justify what really happened. But this is less likely given: (1) the illogic of spearing him after leaving his legs alone, (2) the fact that it dovetails with the already-suspicious Doubting Thomas story and allows the symbolic introduction of blood and water, and (3) it is not mentioned by anyone else, including the three earlier evangelists.

So the conclusion stands so far that the odds of survival and misdiagnosis are (0.75 x 0.0019767) + (0.25 x 0.00019767) = 0.001532 (0.15%).


gosh, i wish that i had research at fingertips :-)
thanks sandy :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:22 pm 
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Quote:
medically ignorant soldier a spear's length away

To the above quote I would only say that a roman soldier's job was to know where to penetrate a body for maximum effect, his survival depended on it.

Medically ignorant? Probably. Anatomically ignorant? Not likely.


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:22 pm 
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we should ask then "plini yiatros" :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:24 pm 
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Anatomically ignorant? Not likely.

Well, i wouldnt know how 'qualified' a Roman soldier was 'anotomically'.

After all, i know if i stab you in the chest i may hit an important organ and kill you.
If i smash your skull i know i will probably kill you.

But i AM anatomically ignorant, and i think a Roman soldier would be too, quite frankly.


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:25 pm 
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gosh, i wish that i had research at fingertips

Been looking into this for years Paula, searching for answers i guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:28 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
gosh, i wish that i had research at fingertips

Been looking into this for years Paula, searching for answers i guess.


i know this sweetie :-)
your dedication is so clear. and so true. and you have gone the journey of research without much help. i see this in your writings...please do correct me if i err.
and thank you for sharing...
i was looking into the journal and wondering how i can subscribe?
:-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:30 pm 
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Thorstein wrote:
Quote:
medically ignorant soldier a spear's length away

To the above quote I would only say that a roman soldier's job was to know where to penetrate a body for maximum effect, his survival depended on it.

Medically ignorant? Probably. Anatomically ignorant? Not likely.


why did his survival depend on it thorstein?

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:32 pm 
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which person (on his side) confessed and asked for forgiveness?

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:32 pm 
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To you and I today, hand to hand armed combat is something we only read about. In comparison a professional roman soldier spent his days training with weapons so that when/if the time came to use them he might live another day. That expertise has to count for something. That's all I'm trying to say really.


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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:33 pm 
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in the papers i see three crosses...
does the one forgiven play a role? or the one that refuses?

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 Post subject: Re: Sauniere's Stages of the Cross
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2010 8:35 pm 
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Quote:
To you and I today, hand to hand armed combat is something we only read about.


hmmm...
too bad that so many victims have no arms...and so many win :-)
so sorry, this is another story :-)

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