Arcadia Discussion Zone

Anyone have any views on this?

Relevant?

Provenance?

Important?

It's interesting because of the pic that he becomes preoccupied with.

Codebreakers always are interest to me, because they perform a function I myself struggle with. Sometimes their focus makes it too narrow but in this case there maybe more.

By being able to recognise the symbology of the pictures he maybe showing his ability to understand the finer points.

The following quote is unusual.

http://www.perillos.com/pumaz.html



This is also strange because this a double inversion designed to point something out about the spear. I believe it was pointed out previously that the spear should be substituted.
It should be noted that picture ties the spear to a myth. How does he know how to do that at that time?




He makes another comment (see below) designed to point to maybe (Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso) being the 3 best represented other worlds of religion.
Again, how does he know how to do that at that time?



Here we see something altogether that has puzzled me. The two books he is referring to, the mythical - (1. The rays of gold 2. The traces of fire) or (The Golden Ray and The Line of Sight)



There is more but what to make of it except to say intriguing - I'm not sure because I do not, nor have I read a copy of the report.

Maybe Sandy if you put a copy of the translated report up.... Please. If not, I understand the article is interesting in and of itself.

Again, how does he know how to do that at that time?

Hello Rain,

Yes, my thoughts exactly.

This 'Pumaz' (whoever he was? Cagger?) says something very interesting. He says that the Delacroix painting in Saint Sulpice, 'Heliodorus driven from the Temple' shows an exact map to the 'treasure' at RLB.

Well, that is straight out of CIRCUIT, the novel by Cherisey. I cant remember when CIRCUIT was deposited in the library (1971 is ringing in my head, but so to is the date of 1967).

Whoever Pumaz was, he was reading Circuit. But how well known was Circuit to researchers at that time?

It was apparantly known as a dialogue between relevant parties. So that stacks up as him working for code breaking of an intelligence agency.



I'm repeating this because I found a quote that talks about a spell book.

In actuality it may have been a cypher book or astrological book.

The priest may have been Father de la Caille although he not a AFAIK a catalan priest but his works "notebooks" are still of interest. Is this the priest they are referring to?
Again how does he know how to substitute Cauneille?
And he knows this before anyone else. Fascinating.
He knows when to use the golden triangle and he knows when to use others.

Rain,

I have just purchased some issues of this magazine, rather cheaply, to ascertain if the articles really appeared in the Magazines as stated.

If so, at least we can confirm that someone signing as PUMAZ wrote about RLC through their pages in the early 70's.

According to Douzet:
"The first “Pumaz file” was finished in 1977, but the final version was written in 1985, 17 years after the start of his research. The “Pumaz file” or “Pumaz Dossier”, as it has become known, has never been officially published, at least not by the author. The first official edition appeared in “Le Dossier Pumaz” in late 2006, though an unauthorised version appeared earlier by Philippe Marlin, in the columns of his magazine. Rather than “the Pumaz file”, Pumaz himself titled the work “A PROPOS D’UN CURE (En auscultant Saunière)” and is dated Neuilly, 1977. Though 17 years in the making, it only contains 44 pages, format A4. The only original document known to exist is in our possession and is dedicated by the author to the person he gave it to: Lucienne Julien, friend of Déodat Roché and a researcher in her own name, through whom we received it.
The work contains an old map of the county of Razès, an ancient engraving (Amphithéâtre de l’Eternelle Sapience), a photograph of the St Sulpice painting, a drawing that explains the photograph, as well as a drawing of the two sides of the Coumesourde stone and the two tombstones of Marie de Negri.
Pumaz used a typewriter and was never intending to publish. Hence, a copy was not sent to the National Library to be registered there. The method of his writing makes it equally clear that Pumaz was not writing for the general public; instead, he uses dry technical language. It is clear that it is an account of his research, which is either merely for his own personal use, to have a record, or is a report he is submitting to a small number of expert readers".

Lucienne Julien was a close friend of Deodat Roche, who was also linked to Daniel Bettex:

"Few people beyond the Haute Razes are aware of the strange affair of Daniel Bettex and the web of rumor and increasingly wild conjecture that has been spun about his passing. Bettex was a former security officer at Geneva airport and amateur spelunker who first became fascinated with the story of the Cathars in the early nineteen-seventies. He embarked on a long running correspondence with Deodat Roche - Rudolph Steiner's principal disciple and the guiding light behind the modern neo-Cathar movement. Bettex wanted to know about remote, unexplored areas where he could conduct his own research and further the overall knowledge of the seemingly vanished faith. Roche pointed him towards the densely wooded area surrounding the volcanic caldera of Mount Bugarach which had played an important role in the survival of the faith after the fall of Montsegur but remains largely unsurveyed by conventional archeologists.
Bettex studied local registers of mining activity in the area and after Roche's death became a close confident of Lucienne Julien the subsequent secretary general of the 'Societe du Souvenir et des Etudes Cathares' – the French Society of Cathar Research whose local standing enabled the Swiss investigator to gain access to records and archives that might otherwise have remained closed to him. Bettex became increasingly obsessed with a mysterious anonymous document known as mémoire sur la mythologie appliquée au Pech de Thauze (memory of the mythology of the Pech the Thauze, the old name for Bugarach) a putative overview of the legends and mythical writings concerning the dormant volcano drawn from long lost 15th century sources. Many of the legends, like the story of Agartha, dealt with the labyrinthine cave system that honeycombs the mountain. The caverns are commonly associated in song and story with the domain of the 'White Lady' who is herself alternatively described as the 'Queen of the Faeries' or the Comte de Foix's bastard daughter, Esclarmonde, the immortal guardian of the mythic 'Book of the Seven Seals'. Others, including the French pseudohistorian Michelle Lamy go as far as to suggest a blood link between the de Foix clan and the famous VoiVoida of Wallachia, Vlad Dracule, positioning the mountain as a gateway to another world of atavistic shapeshifters and soul sucking 'pseudolamias'. According to popular tradition unwary ramblers who became lost in the caves over the years either seemed to disappear without trace or return to the surface with their memories a blank, their heads aspin and their skin and hair bleached white or even blonde. Allusions to Bugarach, the folkloric 'crossroads of the four winds' and the fabled entrance to the subterranean world below can be found in the work of Maurice Leblanc, Gaston Leroux, George Sand, Andre Malraux, Louis Fédié, Daniel Réju, Serge Hutin, Luc Alberny, Jules Verne and the Abbe Henri Boudet among others. Bettex was intrigued by the many similarities in stories old and new by these disparate authors, many of whom were members of secret Rosicrucianist societies. Increasingly caught up in his studies he began to search in earnest for an entrance to this mythical subterranean kingdom.
Bettex never disclosed where exactly he did his research. Allegedly as a pretense to gather the necessary equipment he excavated the old castle of Bugarach. After his passing, the floors of the castle were filled with rubble and sealed with concrete. He appears to have found cavities in the mountain in which he fastidiously documented what he claimed were examples of 13th century 'Cathar' graffiti. The photographs and notes he made during this period have survived in the hands of his family and his friend Lucienne Julian. It was whispered by some that Bettex was on the verge of locating the Ark of the Covenant itself and had been personally briefed by the Israeli general Moshe Dayan. Some believe Bettex was a member of a secret society or that his work in the Razes was part funded by the Israeli intelligence - a proposition I find about as far fetched as the notion of Otto Rahn's initial enquiries being directly funded by Himmler and the Nazi party. Either way over the subsequent decades Monsieur Bettex's diligent work lead to the discovery of a hitherto blocked man made tunnel leading to a subterranean river and more mysteriously what would appear to be an ancient stone quay or L-shaped landing from whence Bettex believed it might be possible to penetrate further into the mountain.

The last time Julien met Bettex in the summer of 1988 the normally taciturn and methodical security officer seemed unusually excited, insisting he was only four or five days away from his goal and that they would soon both be rich...

Three days later the former Swiss security officer's body was recovered from a field on the outskirts of the village of Bugarach. According to contemporary reports his remains were 'inexplicably dehydrated' although typically the exact cause of death was never established. Some say he was caught in a subterranean subsidence but somehow managed to escape and drag himself back to the village. Others believe his body was carried out of the cave after he was already lifeless or that he was simply struck down where he stood. He was no longer a young man and its possible his exertions in the hot Pyrenean sunshine took an undue toll on his heart...

Not only does the place have a long history phantom airships, earth lights and apparitions of the 'White Lady' but now it seems it has its very own version of Otto Rahn - the determined amateur researcher whose mysterious death ( inevitably on the brink of a major discovery ) continues to cast a long shadow over the community. Extraordinary how the classic patterns seem to repeat themselves. I mean you couldn't make it up..."
http://shadowtheatre13.com/danielbettex.html

Have you an opinion on who Pumaz was?

If that isn't a qualified disclaimer, I don't know what it...



Esclarmonde was hardly a bastard.



Ridiculous. And the "pseudolamias" Lamy refers to are the Laminak (sometimes spelled Lamiak, without the "n") - bird-footed (or sometimes fish-tailed) Basque faeries, guardians of sacred springs and wells, underground castles, caverns, and the hidden treasures within them. Attendants of the goddess Mari. Also called Sarassinas (i.e. "Saint Sarah") and, of course, Mouras Encantadas...



These old folk legends are ancient, and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Cathars.



Unfortunately Boudet couldn't conceive of anything older or having a history previous to the arrival of Gallo-Celtic tribes. Not much imagination there.

So first it's the treasure of Blanche of Castile, then it's the Templars, the Cathars, the Visigoths, the Temple of Jerusalem, etc. etc. etc. The legends of treasure troves in the mountains, guarded by faeries pre-date all of these.

TCP

Hello TCP,

If that isn't a qualified disclaimer, I don't know what it...

Referring just to an article Douzet wrote. I have procured the original publications to verify that 'Pumaz' did indeed write in these original issues.


Esclarmonde was hardly a bastard.

I know


Ridiculous. And the "pseudolamias" Lamy refers to are the Laminak (sometimes spelled Lamiak, without the "n") - bird-footed (or sometimes fish-tailed) Basque faeries, guardians of sacred springs and wells, underground castles, caverns, and the hidden treasures within them. Attendants of the goddess Mari. Also called Sarassinas (i.e. "Saint Sarah") and, of course, Mouras Encantadas...

I think the author was agreeing - it can be seen as rediculous all these assertions. But modern day commentators appropriating them for a reason?

According to popular tradition unwary ramblers who became lost in the caves over the years either seemed to disappear without trace or return to the surface with their memories a blank, their heads aspin and their skin and hair bleached white or even blonde.
These old folk legends are ancient, and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Cathars.

I think this is the point the author makes.

The reason i am interested in the names of 'modern' researchers latching on to something ....

Unfortunately Boudet couldn't conceive of anything older or having a history previous to the arrival of Gallo-Celtic tribes. Not much imagination there.

I would NEVER have the presumption to dismiss Boudet in that manner.

So first it's the treasure of Blanche of Castile, then it's the Templars, the Cathars, the Visigoths, the Temple of Jerusalem, etc. etc. etc. The legends of treasure troves in the mountains, guarded by faeries pre-date all of these.

It does not mean that, for example, if the Visigothic treasure ever made it to Toulouse, that the indigenous folk legends wouldnt have been used to hide that fact. Right?

Yes, I got that part.



I wonder what Andre gains by claiming she was, though? I wonder if this somehow works into another one of his fables?



Sorry, I didn't my statement very well. "Ridiculous" was in reference to Lamy's suggestion that the Foix were related to Vlad Dracula. One thing I don't understand is why these legends never seem to be properly credited. I wouldn't expect that sort of candor from Douzet, but I don't know why others don't bother.



Well, they seem to be conscripted for the Cathar "cause" a little too often for my liking.



The question is - do they have a clue what they've really latched on to?



You should try it sometime.

[/quote]

I doubt it. It would seem to me that modern authors are using these old legends as a convenient backdrop for their "theories"... Unnerving.

TCP

Precisely. Cathars have become the new Druids. Blech.

TCP

....so was it TCP or Sandy a wee while back who didn't agree with my putting "Cathars" and "money for services rendered" together in the same sentence?

Must've been Sandy.

TCP

well, i'm glad you understand.....there aren't many here who do.

Assume nothing, I just don't recall making the comment.

TCP

that was like something out of "mission impossible"...."This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds"...sort of stuff.

Well i dont remember either.

But this thread is about Pumaz anyway .... if you want Cathars please go to the threads Roscoe starts : )

sorry...i was just about to start a midnight rant.... i'll shut up, and i remember now it you i was having the conversation with a wee while back

i'll shut up, and i remember now it you i was having the conversation with a wee while back

I still dont remember.

And if it is about the Rise, i dont agree with what they say in there.

Is it ok to have a different opinion?

no, years before the Rise came out, it was about the Cathars charging money/goods/land for the Consolamentum...but let's not get into that here, back to Pumaz and the report.

I wonder if that's a "black pumaz" (and yes, that is a perfectly serious question)...?

TCP

Esclarmonde was hardly a bastard.

Hello TCP,

I found this on the same website i quoted from - seems it is a different Esclarmonde....

"A chain of events described elsewhere on this site drew my attention to the fact that every conventional English language historian seems to have drawn their data from the same French language sources. As far as I know not one has taken the time to master Occitans and go back to the surviving songs and troubadour 'romances' of the period, such as the ballads of Guilhelm Montanhigol who was writing in the mid to late thirteenth century, a first hand witness to the events he describes. If they had they would have realized there was a third Esclarmonde in the story –one who far more ably fitted the larger than life myth that has grown around her.


It seems the venerable Esclarmonde de Foix had an illegitimate niece who was named after her aunt but was neither a virgin nor a high priestess. Esclarmonde d'Alion - or 'Esclarmonde the bastard' - whose very name, according to the monks of Mercus abbey, is 'redolent of sin and damnation'. She had the blue eyes of her forefathers, wore her hair in three long shoulder length braids and at the time of the siege was barely twenty...



Her father Raimond Roger, the Comte de Foix, was one of the great heroes of the South, a colorful figure who in youth had romanced and won the hand of Etienette de Penautier, the 'loveliest woman in the Languedoc' and was remembered by his subjects as 'Raimond Drut' or 'Raymond the Beloved'. In the autumn of 1223 the Comte became lost while hunting a wolf in the forests of the Ariege and coming across a building with high white walls banged on its gate to demand admittance. It turned out he had come to the door of a convent and during the night Raimond the 'Beloved' duly deflowered its virginal abbess, Na Ermingarda, before hitting the trail at daybreak, leaving only the severed wolf's head hanging on a nail beside the convent gate to mark his passage.

The hapless abbess fell pregnant and when Na Ermingarda's position at the convent became untenable she returned to her family lands in Telho where in the fullness of time she begat twins - the girl was named Esclarmonde after her pious aunt and the boy was christened 'Loup' perhaps after their father's exploit on the night of their conception.

The twins never knew their mother's embrace. Weakened by her public shaming and the long journey north, Na Ermingarda succumbed during childbirth and the infants were given over to a wet nurse. Raised at a distance from their illustrious relatives, the children must have found themselves ostracized both by the serfs and the father's family. Loup was packed off to a monastery to receive an education befitting his station while the young Esclarmonde was sequestered in the strange octagonal tower on her father's Belpech estate where she was cared for by the Comte's loyal retainer, the aging Roiax, who initiated the child into the ways of their faith. According to the superstitious gossip of the day the young sorceress was rumoured to have been seen wandering naked in the woods consorting with wild creatures and 'certain dethroned pagan divinities' whose language she spoke and whom she was supposed to have 'called down from their homes in the mountains to do her bidding'. She is said to have had no fear of men, for 'the demon inside her pushed her to give herself to them'.

A certain 'Brother Robert', who had been returning one night to Saint-Antonin abbey where he had been sent to collect a precious ciborium, recounts how he was startled by strange noises. A huge toad went hopping past him, first one and then another, as if the creatures were gathering in the center of the forest for some unclean rite. At the end of a long avenue of oaks the terrified monk saw a naked woman with a mitre on her head and three golden plaits flowing past her shoulders playing the lyre. Beside her stood a bearded old man wearing a turban and a Persian or Egyptian costume, he didn’t know for sure. Behind her, a long line of white wolves ceremoniously walked in step, their brazen eyes flickering as if they were aflame. He glimpsed serpents slithering in the half-light and birds that he insisted bore oddly human expressions on their faces, in spite of their beaks and feathers. Father Robert added that all that had saved him was a host that had remained stuck to the bottom of the ciborium.

Raimond Drut, the Comte de Foix, died in 1223, apparently from of a stomach ulcer while directing the siege of Mirepoix. Some believe he was poisoned, although his death was most probably the result of natural causes exacerbated by the constant tension of the preceding years. After her father's demise, the young sorceress was left with little option other than to enter into a strategic marriage with an ambitious warlord some twenty years her senior, Bernard d'Alion, the lord of Usson, thus safeguarding the vital supply lines to Montsegur that had been granted to Esclarmonde as part of her dowry.

It is dangerous to read too much into the few sparse facts available although it is clear that Esclarmonde failed to give her husband the heir he craved. Inquisition documents allege that heretics fleeing the siege of Montsegur were granted sanctuary at her husband's castle and for a while Usson served as a crucial staging post for the citadel's defenders, but then something seems to have gone a little wrong. Doffing her regal clothes the young witch allegedly lit out on her loveless marriage to live as an outlaw in the trackless woodland of the Capsir Mountains where she was reunited with her brother Loup who had run away from the monastery to become one of the ringleaders of the partisans. Clad in mans’ armor she fought in countless skirmishes, lit the night beacons that were the only means of communication between the scattered refugees and organized the shepherds to push over the rocks that crushed the crusaders as they marched through the gorges below".

Just going back a bit to Bergerdearcadie's earlier post:

I'm interested in Delacroix's Heliodorus and its geometry.

And look, I know I keep on doing this.

However, these relationships just keep on popping up. Here I see that the phrase: “By the Cross and this horse of God I destroy the Daemon” apparent in the Heliodorus painting.

I shouldn’t need to explain it, but the transverse element of the Cross is the diameter of the arch. Delacroix has slightly shortened the vertical length (the radius - A) to so that the length between the tranverse element and the point of intersection of the extension of the line traced by the lance in the hand of the mounted Angel and the lower vertical line (B) comprises 0.618 of the total length. Divine, isn’t it?



Regards to all

Wombat.

Sandy, I do not know who or what Pumaz is.

If Roger says it's right but based on the wrong premise then I would listen. The reason being among other things is wrong St Vincent is used. He's seems to grasp the concept of "the lazarist" but he doesn't mention St Vincent of Sargossa.
De Cherisey always had three layers to his work.



Again in my view is this is the wrong picture to concentrate on(or rather I get more out of St Michael defeats satan/lovuian posted a great picture on the following link) - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2431&start=25) for but if you have a look at the painting's title we may get a view of what he was looking for.

I have been looking into the Maccabees and somehow they are related but I can't work out why. I don't think it's related to RLC but rather a motivation for the Israelis to looking around for something.




This cracked me up because it basically says go and read "Crusade against the grail". There you'll find a bit about Esclarmonde, whom feature prominantly in the mythology. I haven't finished checking on that. It will take time I think but that letter is very well worded as if it's either designed to be intercepted or worded strangely enough to draw attention.

For instance it's within the realms of possibility that Moshe Dayan did show an interest considering his own interest in artifacts and archeology and the lengths he went to procure these "things."
I've got to include this quote about Moshe Dayan because it's so KOOL. Should I say that.


However, even if Moshe Dayan did not contact bettex it is still is interesting that his name is mentioned. Who would have enough guts to do that? Lie or Truth? And what kind of people are involved?
So maybe Cagger is as he appears to be a low level decoder asked to something based on a false premise. If that's so. Maybe his work was deliberately commissioned for a reason other than what we can fathom here or its technique.

The only other person i recall talking as if the Chapel of the Angels at SS was a kind of map ... was Franck Marie.

In his Critical study of RLC he said for example that the 'Saint Michel terrassant le dragon' (the painting on the ceiling fo the Chapel) might represent somewhere on the ground in the Rennes area.

He identifies a spot called Rocher sur saint Michel (by Terrolles) which has a spot height of 666!

Let me propose it might mean that something such as a ritual might be applied to the area. So it might mean 2 things.

Let me put it this way - would the Israeli's presence indicate they want the area or would it indicate they were looking for an artifact - meaning they would be able to perform Priestly/temple rituals elsewhere.

The french on the other hand would be interested in the area and/or the artifacts.

Hi Rain,

I got a bit lost with your post.....

Let me propose it might mean that something such as a ritual might be applied to the area. So it might mean 2 things.

I suppose i am taking things literally. Although i asked myself along time ago, whatever could Cherisey mean when he said the outline of the horses head turns into a map of RLC on 17th Jan. at midday!
Hence my interest in this Pumaz character - because he is saying what Cherisey says. I wondered if Pumaz was Cherisey???
Hence, does anyone know who this Caggers person is?

Let me put it this way - would the Israeli's presence indicate they want the area or would it indicate they were looking for an artifact - meaning they would be able to perform Priestly/temple rituals elsewhere.

Have the Israelis really been scouting the area???? Isnt that just 'hearsay'?
And what artifact would they be looking for?
If they were, doesnt that mean they are looking for Temple artifacts? That must mean, must it not, that they lend credence to the legends that the Visigoths brought the looted Temple treasure to the area of Toulouse. Why dont they look in Toulouse, where the Toulousian Regnum of the Visigoths was?

The french on the other hand would be interested in the area and/or the artifacts.

Yes, of course. But wouldnt the Israelis want to locate artifacts to take back to Jerusalem?

Anyway .... it all seems to far fetched ...... and yet, i am open to the possibility that archaeological treasures are still buried somewhere in the whole area .....one has to think like a Visigoth i suppose.