Arcadia Discussion Zone

The "American side" were friends of Chérisey's who considered Plantard to be an amateur and an opportunist trying to horn in on their hoax.



Yeah, there's a reason for that, Lov. When one realizes who Black Mary is, then it becomes obvious who she's not.

TCP

...she lives underground, combing her hair on the threshold when it's not raining....oh, and she has a thirst for blood...
....and we know who she's not.

Bad Christian press, darling - they tended to demonize their competition. See "Lucifer"...

TCP

Yes, i should probably have put a wink half way through it...never mind, just imagine it.

I'll do that. Keep in mind the thematic current that runs throughout most Black Virgin legends - found in the soil, or a hollow tree, or near a sacred spring or well, or at the mouth of a cave; turned up sometimes by a peasant farmer, but more often than not by an animal sacred to the goddess Mari - an ox, bull, or a goat. They put her on the local church altar and lock her up for the night, but the next morning, she's gone - back in the place she was found, "her" place. She doesn't belong in a church 'cause, as the people of the soil know, she ain't no Christian!

TCP

Mairu

Mairu (or mairuak with the Basque plural), also called intxisu(ak) in the Bidasoa valley, were, in Basque mythology, giants who built dolmens or harrespil. Like these, they are only found in mountains. They are often associated with lamia, though these are known in all the Basque Country.

Mairu' means "moor" in Basque.[1] This term is used with the sense of 'non-Christian' to refer to former civilizations or megalithic monuments. In parts of Spain, any ancient monument was popularly attributed to the age of Moorish domination. The origin of the Mairu is thought to be as old as the "mouros encantados" in Portugal (Spanish: moros encantados), who are thought to be the remnant of old pre-Roman deities. The Roman occupation of basque lands, or Carthaginian imperial influence in western Europe can not be underestimated as the possible origin of this belief in southerner or Mediterranean "magical people", but the presence of strong Mediterranean cultural influences and maybe immigrants from the Cardium Pottery that came up the Ebro valley, or from south Portugal along the Megaliths spread around the Atlantic Coasts during the Neolithic Period, may be older and more relevant to the monuments legends.

"What's wrong with La Morenita? She looks as black as a moor!"

"Not a moor, darling - a moor..."

(Bring Mommy her medicine, darling - and make it a double, Entendra!)

TCP

...

Your guess is as good as mine, I've not been to the Urkiola Mountains.

TCP

Thanks TCP and Sheila for giving the info on Mari...the moor

TCP


the hoax on bloodlines is that the hoax your talking about?
evidence of the family of Jesus Christ?
or is there another hoax out there?

Black Madonna is a spin off to the ancient Mari of the Basques...She is the Earth goddess
Interesting position

Does Mari have a son and is she a healer?
from what I read she is a bit harsh not very loving
drinking blood?
or am I doing her an injustice

Now with Rosemerte the goddess found at Mount Sion ...the rose is associated with her
She is the Rose mother...Roseline and Ursuline

in Louisiana or Hatian Voodoo the Saint Ersuli the Earth Mother...is Virgin Mary..very loving

Just rambling a bit I see the name Mari and mari ...what makes her identified to the Black Madonna...beside her name Mari and she is the Dark Earth (soil) goddess...does she represent more the Magdalene aspect

help me out here in other words the Basque looked at the Black Madonna as the Mari earth goddess
did I get it right here

Basically the crux of this particular hoax concerned Templar survival, it had nothing whatsoever to do with Merovingians, a Davidic bloodline, or Mary Magdalene. The netherworld of faux chivalric orders was (and still is) consumed with creating false lineages of corporate continuity, sometimes in the form of dynastic bloodlines and sometimes not. Plantard was a collector of "mysteries", he never passed one by without trying to work himself into the picture somehow, as a Merovingian, or a St. Clair, or what have you. He had many contemporary examples to follow, but he wasn't very convincing - until HBHG made him famous as a Jesus/Magdalene "bloodliner" - a claim that Plantard never made about himself.



The blood-drinking bit was a later disparagement. She was the principal deity of her tribal believers, she was pretty much all things to them as a mother goddess would be. Harsh when it came to injustice, yes.



The Gallic etymology of Rosmerta's name has nothing to do with roses or mothers per se. It means "great provider", she was a goddess of abundance. "Rose" and "Ursa" aren't even close in Latin, so I'm not sure how or why you're making this comparison.



Actually, Erzulie is not an earth mother goddess per se, she's the goddess of love and sex.



The "black" part is a double entendre, as the Basque word for "pagan" or "non-Christian" is the same word they use for "moor". And this carried over into the Celtiberian and Latin-based Iberian languages as well, as in the folkore spirits called "mouras encantadas", or Enchanted Moors, who guard the sacred places of pre-Christian origin, the hiding places of fantastic treasures of gold and precious gems. The Basques didn't envision Mari as dark; nor are the Enchanted Moors seen as dark - they generally have long, golden hair and fair complexions. They are what the Irish would call the Banh Sidhe, or banshees, or in Provence, the Sarassines (i.e. Saint Sarah before the Romany adopted her as their own). The dark skin of the Black Virgin differentiates her from the Christian Virgin Mary, not because they believed she was dark-skinned, but because she is a pagan goddess - a moura, but not an Arab "moor".

The only reflection between Mari and the Magdalene comes from later church hagiography - Magdalene, living in a cave, covered with her long flowing hair, in imitation of the indigenous spirits of Celtic and Iberian folklore, remnant spirits of the people who came before them.



Not just the Basques as we consider who the Basques are now. The ancestors of the Basques and Gascons were much more wide-spread geographically before the subsequent waves of invaders from the Asian steppes pushed them up into the mountains. Those who stayed in the lowlands assimilated, and the mouras became part of Celtic folklore as well.

TCP

Yo Tim, when lady Sonia Lorraine went into her Spanish schpiel she based her take of the Hebraic-Hispanic source to all of these legends. When did that cross over take place? Was she putting all of her etiology as bein' pre-Muslim period?

I ask,'cuz there seems to be no mention of the Greco-Semitic colonialization in that area. They left their own linguistic inputs, yes?

Only on the place-names of a handful of seaports they established. The never subjugated large portions of the interior as later invaders did, they stayed on the coastal strip, and primarily in the south. They were interested in trade, not conquest.

TCP

From Steve's article
It is said that the resident goddess of Mount Sion-Vaudemont, the "other Sion" of the "priory of Sion" in Switzerland, is Rosemertha - the Rose mother.


http://www2.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/poseur3.html

also from Steve's article

I have recently, that the name of several places in France - Rhedae/Rennes, Rouen/Rhodom, Rodez/Rhodes, are derived from the Greek Island of Rhodes, whose name itself comes from the rose-goddess Rhoda. Contemporary texts say that the red-haired Celtic "Redones" or "rose people" (Rutheni/Rhodanim) setlled both Rennes in the Midi and Rennes in Brittany - the name derives from the ethnic group

Rhodians who became the Redones were called “Danaans,” one is compelled to view the Dedanites as a tribe of Danaans,

from Wiki on the island of Rhodes
the island was said to be born of the union of Helios the sun god and the nymph Rhode, and the cities were named for their three sons. The rhoda is a pink hibiscus native to the island. Diodorus Siculus added that Actis, one of the sons of Helios and Rhode, travelled to Egypt. He built the city of Heliopolis and taught the Egyptians the science of astrology.[6]
In Greek mythology, Rhode also known as Rhodos
a daughter of Poseidon

"Praise the sea maid, daughter of Aphrodite, bride of Helios, this isle of Rhodes
she was the consort of Helios

Her name was applied to the rose, which appeared on Rhodian coinage.
Helios and her had seven children ..6 boys and 1 girl

Electryone died a virgin and the sons became legendary astronomers and rulers of the island, accounting for the cities among which it was divided. Rhode was worshipped on Rhodes in her own name, as well as Halia, the embodiment of the "salt sea" or as the "white goddess", Leucothea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhode_%28mythology%29



Another Celtic name is Rhiannon
In Welsh mythology, Rhiannon was the goddess of horses. She married a mortal chieftain named Pwyll, but a curse was laid upon their household by the man to whom she had originally been betrothed, and Rhiannon could not conceive. When she did conceive, she was accused of killing her infant.[1] One source claims that her servants stole the child and framed her by leaving a puppy's blood and bones on the cradle.[1] Rhiannon is also associated with the Celtic fertility goddess, Rigantona.[1]

The figure of the goddess Rhiannon may have evolved into Vivienne of Arthurian legends.

Vivienne...the Lady of the Lake

Lovuian this is good and relevant information it's just a shame that the crista cretins will refuse to see anything here.

Rennes is also a reindeer which is a pagan icon from the old tribal times before Clovis I. Rohini is vedic for the constellation of Taurus. It means Red Deer. 10000 years ago the tribes followed the reindeer across Europe including across the land bridge between England and France. They are venerated in the Lascaux cave drawings. See Cresswell Crags. I would like to point out to people that dinosaur remains were found at Compagne sur Aude and trepanned skulls were found at Mount Alaric.


Now at Narbonne Museum.

Some were also found at Rennes le Chateau and are shown in Henry Lincoln's first film the Lost Treasure of Jerusalem.

Yes, and considering the fact that many of the above-noted details in Steve's (old) theory were discussed at some length on a private forum I own called MemoryMap several years ago, he is well aware of the fact that I consider his etymological comparisons rather misguided and ill-informed. I don't know if he still holds to this assumption, he may have discarded it some years ago.

TCP

Hey, Tim, with yer previous private forum, did any buddy duplicate what Ben Hammott did and actually find sumfin tangible? I go out from the forum Eginolf mentioned with its 40,000+ posts that apparently didn't discover anything, otherwise, Eginolf would already have produced the goodies, Yes?

Just havin' a forum in private don't make it any more fruitful than this forum, IMHO. If anything trere are better checks + balances here.

If Steve altered his view, how much would that alter his 'facts'? I posit my query inthis fashion, 'cuz the crista in-krowd don't really wanna discuss 'facts', they wanna hype the mystique 'boot it, Hollyweird style.

After all, if Roger sez its repugnant, regardless of the lack of verifiable salient info to justify this stance, he expects us to genuflect + say amen in the same moment. Was that the basic set up on yer private forum, just like the setup Graham Hancock has?

We produced quite a few tangible findings - we didn't go grave-digging (not in the literal sense, anyway).



I would have to disagree, cooperative efforts by qualified participants without hystrionic outbursts or entertaining flights of fantasy can and do lead to more fruitful results.



If Steve altered his view it was due to the "facts" being shown not to be factual. He's not wedded to outcomes and maintains a healthy curiosity in the topic without being territorial about it.

TCP

Well Steve wrote it and perhaps someday he will enlighten us if he still believes what he has written
I can only thank him for his research in the matter

It does. And it is always also kind of intellectual fun as you can be sure there will be no senseless fighting.

Eginolf,

For some reason i wondered what your avatar picture was ... surely not you? : )

Anyway, i recently came across the pic. while researching, so i know who it is now.

Mystery solved : )

If only all mysteries were solved that easily ...

I'm writing a article about her
Yolande Duchess of Lorraine
married

In 1445 she married her cousin Ferry II of Lorraine (1420–1470), Count Vaudémont, at Nancy. The marriage was a dynastic alliance, arranged to end the dispute which existed between René of Anjou and Ferry's father, Antoine of Vaudémont, regarding the succession to the Duchy of Lorraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yolande,_Duchess_of_Lorraine
Yolande de Bar was alleged to have been the tenth Grand Master of the Priory of Sion.

She has a connection to Rosemerthe

In Schama's book Citizens on page 770
a anonymous picture of the Virtues of the Republic
shows Rosemertha (Virtue) with her cornucopia of plenty

It was the tool used by Robespierre to bring symbolism of the Republic


Encircled by a pair of snakes and wings, the caduceus rests upright between the horns of Amalthea. Thus it shows that a great abundance of things blesses men who are strong of mind and skilled in speaking.

Alciato's Book of Emblems

Emblem 119

Fortune, companion of virtue

Does Simon Schama make this identification, or is this your own take?

TCP

Boy TCP you jumped on that one
good morning what is it in Cali like 0600

Schama shows the painting is called the "Virtues of the Republic"

It is a goddess with a cornucopia being worshiped by the people

Schama didn't refer to Rosemertha

I did for she is a goddess of fertility and prosperity which was worshipped at Vaudemont Sion which she carries the cornucopia

Robespierre was using it to help motivate the people for the Republic