Arcadia Discussion Zone

Revj, I get the sense that there are people on this forum who have possibly spent years of their lives researching and writting a book of which they felt was the greatest insight into history ever put to ink and paper only to be flat out rejected by the publishing community. That may explain some of their clear hatred towards other peoples success.

Wow. You actually believe TCP's claims? There goes your reputation as the über skeptic. What other things do you believe in? Ghosts? The supernatural? Maybe it's time the BS detector gets turned on you for a change.

Revj, I get the sense that there are people on this forum who have possibly spent years of their lives researching and writting a book of which they felt was the greatest insight into history ever put to ink and paper only to be flat out rejected by the publishing community. That may explain some of their clear hatred towards other peoples success.

Whatever do you mean by that?

Why is everything measured by whether you have got a publishing deal?

Boy, you are more gullible than I thought!
Did the Heraldista go from birth-certificate-to-birth-certificate to verify TCPs claims? Because that's the ONLY way any claims can be verified. TCP is not important enough to be listed in any genealogical reference book even IF he was descended from Hugues de Carmain.

Professionally trained genealogists do not trust any claim - not even the official claims found in official genealogical reference books. All professional genealogists distrust all genealogies, and would not view the genealogical tree of Hugues de Carmain as being worth anything at all since it predates 1500 (baptism registers were first introduced around 1500) - and they don't even trust what came after 1500 either.

When the French compilers of genealogies published their works THEY DID NOT CHECK anything either, and nobody has double-checked any details of genealogies - that would be groundbreaking original research. That's the real-life situation of genealogies.

My motive is simple. I care deeply about the people I provide pastoral care to in the Lutheran tradition.

Yes please take a shower and cool off
but I admit that imagery can give a girl a fright
I maybe scarred for life


Lets get on with it please
Lets go to that Chinon Parchment that just handily was found by the lil girl who now I believe works for the Vatican
It wasn't Clement who betrayed the Templars it was that Capetian Phillip
Clement absolved the Templars but alas Philip roasted them on a open fire cruelly
Torture is used to extract information ...look at America we use it
but guess what we found
Torture is useless
Now granted Clement was under duress but it wasn't Phillip who tortured them it was the Dominicans (Inquisition)
Phillip did take care of those IOU'S though
The Templars were absolved and yet they burned

But did Phillip get that Templar treasure?
I don't think so

And would one think of Masonry (Like Albert Pike said)as a religion founded long ago by Euclid and Socrates
Masons have a Temple and they worship the One Great Architect(All seeing Eye of RA) and rituals
So what came first Masonry or the Templars?....those Egyptian Pyramids had a few stonemasons working on them

And Clement (Papacy) isn't so innocent
the pushing for the other kings to place the Templars under arrest

At a congress of 114 bishops called by Clement four years after the first arrests, the bishops of Spain, England, Germany, Denmark, Ireland and Scotland wanted the Templars to be allowed to defend themselves. Only one Italian prelate and three French ones voted against. The pope closed the session. In 1312, 54 Templars, knights who had volunteered to defend the order were declared relapsed heretics and burnt alive on a “slow” fire before the trials had even started.

But the King Of England and Portugal balked as well as others
they didn't believe it
But Clement who absolved the Templars sent a Papal Bull demanding they be tried
Edward seized their lands but he treated them without torture
but that wasn't enough
Clement demanded torture and Papal law was above English civil law
We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land… I command you at once to submit those men to torture.
so Edward complied
but I don't think the Bruce did ...Papal law didn't work on him
The Knights Templar in Portugal just changed their name
Founded in 1318, the Military Order of Christ (previously Real Ordem dos Cavaleiros de Nosso Senhor Jesus Cristo) was the heritage of the Knights Templar in Portugal, after the suppression of the Templars in 1312.
King Denis negotiated with Pope Clement's successor John XXII for the new order's recognition and right to inherit the Templar assets and property.

its an example how the Order continued under another name

But the reason the torture in other countries was the Papacy was looking for something that they didn't get in their Torture chamber

the Templar Treasure
Torture never works


Just let me hear where the wrong parts of the story are and some backing up of this would help too
once your out of the shower

Don't forget the soap!

Roger, I am going help you out, since you apparently don't know TCP very well. I will make you aware of three things you obviously do not know:

1) TCP considers his religion to be paganism. How do you think that would sit with the Catholic Monarchist groups of which he is a member? And you call ME a hypocrite?

2) After he split with Douzet/Coppens and at the height of his feud with them, he admitted in e-mails that he made the whole thing up about his ancestry in order to counter what they were doing. Later, he retracted his retraction.

3) Tim takes pride in being "ordained" via the internet into the "Order of the Divine Mother" by the Esoteric Theological Seminary: http://www.northernway.org/school.html

Is this really a man you want to be defending?

I will now say no more about this or respond to further verbal assaults. I can't believe I let you and Tim pull me down into this mudslinging contest. Of that I am guilty. And for that I do feel dirty. Can I shower with you?

Oh now that is a heck of a image
don't forget to sing Ernies Rubber Duckie song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh85R-S-dh8

Hey, Lov: You were around that night Roger and I were dancing together in the forum, right?
Why can't two old buddies shower together?

Yep I remember Rev Jeff

Which has to do with the Templars...how exactly?

TCP

the "Expectorant Couple" are not a trustworthy source of information on any topic, including the weather.

One slight difference, Jeff, which I'm sure you're aware of but are mostly likely loath to admit:

James' influence didn't extend very far beyond the parameters of the small following of Christianized Jews in the Holy Land itself. James didn't travel or proselytize to Gentiles as Peter and Paul did. Ergo, this idea you're pressing that James' influence was systematically edited out Petrine/Pauline doctrine by perfidy is a little difficult to prove, is it not?



Yeah, I'll do that Jeff. And you keep re-writing your religion to line your pockets and polish your "academic" credentials.

TCP

Well, bring them on, let's see the quotes. I mean, Booklist, Library Journal and Publishers Weekly aren't exactly qualified to assess the accuracy and quality of your "research", they do what they do to promote books sales. But let's see what your other colleagues have to say, by all means.



Yeah, that must be it. I quiver before your superior intellect. Hack!

TCP

First off, it's "Cronista", not "Heraldista"...

It was only necessary to document my descent from an ancestor noted in the family preuves-de-noblesse issued and recorded in 1669, using wills, baptismal and marriage records, U.S. census records from 1790, etc. Birth certificates are a fairly modern invention. Jeff might believe himself to be up on verification methods used by professional genealogists, but the fact is that no one would be able to get beyond the 1880s if birth certificates were the only means by which ancestry could be proven. And any professional genealogist will agree.



Are you projecting here, Jeff? You, a clergyman, have such little faith in the veracity of the Holy Scriptures of your religion, assume that other professionals are similarly jaded?



Excuse me? Royal notaries and rapporteurs kept scrupulous records because land ownership was hereditary in France of the Ancien Regime. The rights, privileges and exemptions of the nobility were based in birthright. Those sent to scrutinize such records every forty to fifty years were looking for flaws by which land and revenues could be appropriated. You really are out of your depth, Jeff.

TCP

By sewing seeds of doubt and confusion for personal gain. That's "pastoral care"? You ought to be defrocked.

TCP

When rationale fails, resort to gay jokes. Any port in a storm, eh Reverend?

TCP

At surface level that would indeed be a real conundrum. It only serves to know that you know nothing about what goes on below the surface. Do you really believe, Jeff, that with all my "secrets" being plastered all over the Internet for the last decade - much of which I wrote myself - that I would have passed background checks for inclusion into very conservative, very traditional, very Catholic organizations unless there was some other mitigating factors at work? Think about it - gay, pagan, card-carrying liberal Democrat. That alone should be grounds for disqualification from the get-go. And nobody has to take my word for anything, a Google search will serve to uncover a mass of "contradictions" about me. And yet... with such an excess of "dirty laundry" being accessible with a few key strokes, am I such an effective con-man that I could pull the wool over the eyes of the doorkeepers? I know you'd like to think so, because you are singularly unqualified to make any sense of it. And that makes me laugh.



I did? What alternative universe did that happen in? Alpha Coppens? Did your mistress' new "grail prince" prime you? Never happened.



You have a problem with interfaith chaplaincy? This provides me with the legal qualifications necessary to officiate at marriages. Do you have a problem with that?



Oh please, do penance somewhere else.

TCP

Not to mention one of the perps being served with an "official caution" by the London Metropolitan Police's Computer Crimes Unit for computer misuse (what we call "hacking" here in the States), a lifetime record, and three years' probation.

You should probably report back to your new lord, Jeff, before you press this issue much further. If he knew that you were responsible for an embarrassing degree of over-exposure, he might tell your mistress to cut you off, as she's done with so many others.

TCP

I wouldn't know, never having written a book nor faced a publisher's rejection. Got any other off-the-cuff insights, Jim? Or are you just smelling blood in the water again?

TCP

I'm sure that Jeff must realize that the individual accredited by the Spanish Ministry of Justice to render verdicts on matters genealogical and heraldic on behalf of the Crown and State isn't quite the pushover he's alleging the man to be. Our resident pastor is just out of ammunition - and patience.

So much for turning the other cheek, Reverend. It takes a very special, dedicated sort of clergyman to practice what he preaches. I hope someday you'll come to terms with that.

TCP

That "lil girl" - Dr. Barbara Frale - is 40 years old, and was an accredited historian working at the Vatican Archives when she found the Chinon parchment.



Who told you that?



I'm sure that would come as quite a surprise to most Masons, perhaps you should go on the History Channel with these assertions.



Bruce was excommunicated in 1306, I doubt very seriously that any instructions coming from Avignon would have been sent to him to be carried out.



Yes, and the same pope lifted Bruce's excommunication in 1324.



Yes, and another example would be how the Templars continued on as Hospitallers in Scotland. Or as the Knights of Montesa in Aragon. There is no smoke and mirrors here.



Actually it was Philip of France who called dibs on the cash and whose men did the torturing.

TCP

Wow, if only you demonstrated this much "discernment" on matters pertaining to your pet religious revisions, Jeff. You might have a shred of credibility if that were the case.

TCP

Mr. Sinclair is also a Sinclair and has consistently shown far less than academic objectivity where his family legends are concerned.

From Brian Smith's definitive exposé on the "Orkneyjar" website (emphasis mine):

http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/henrysinclair/kirkwallscroll2.htm

The Not-So-Secret Scroll - Priceless Relic or Floorcloth?
An article exploring the Kirkwall Teaching Scroll by Brian Smith

Finally, there is the question of radiocarbon dating. Sinclair acquired two dates for the scroll, from Oxford University’s Accelerator Laboratory. The first result, he says, was ‘disastrous’, because the samples that he submitted were ‘so spoiled by chemicals or use that the process declared them to be not more than fifty years old’. He sent another piece, and this time the result pointed to ‘the fifteenth century, most probably between 1400 and 1530’.

Sinclair’s grasp of radiocarbon dating seems to be defective. Scientists check for chemical contamination before using the process. When Oxford investigated Sinclair’s original sample they found no problem. Their result on that occasion was 85BP +/-35. (I am grateful to the laboratory for this information.) This doesn’t mean ‘not more than fifty years old’, as Sinclair imagines. Such a result translates into a very wide range, and calibrates to the years 1680-1740 or 1800-1960. In other words, if the result is to be believed, William Graham (if he was the painter) could have used a piece of cloth made during the period up to 1740. Such a date would indeed be ‘disastrous’ for Sinclair’s theory!

The second date that Sinclair acquired is 435BP +/-50, which calibrates to the years 1400-1530 or 1560-1640. This radically different result is of course still not incompatible with a late date for the design on the cloth. We have already seen that the design cannot be earlier than 1611, because of the quotations from the King James Bible on it. However, there is no reason to prefer this date to the other - and, given the incompatibility between them, it might be best to ignore both!

Radiocarbon analysis is useful in the study of art objects. It is dangerous to use it to try to authenticate them.

If I am confronted with a cloth in a masonic lodge, stuffed with masonic symbols, which we know was donated in 1786 by a Freemason entranced by masonic lore, my inclination is to date it to the eighteenth century, the period when the symbols were devised, not to the fifteenth. When experts like Speth and Day reach the same conclusion, and radiocarbon dating doesn’t rule out a late design, I am even more confident that Andrew Sinclair has got it all wrong.



Still have questions about the modern inscription on that white marble sarcophagus and how it got there?



And why wouldn't he be considered one of the "leading authorities" on myths he himself helped to fabricate from whole cloth?



What Mr. Sinclair fails to mention is that Rosslyn Chapel, as it stands today, is incomplete, and represents only a portion of that the "Collegiate Church of St. Matthew" envisioned by William Sinclair would have been had it been completed. Ergo, had it been fully realized, this "ground plan for the Temple of Solomon" would have been quite different. What we see know was not what was intended at all. Rosslyn Chapel is merely the "Lady Chapel" of what was to have been a much larger and more magnificent collegiate edifice.



"Fairly certain" according to the Scottish Templar wannabes (among them, Andrew Sinclair) who have been pushing for an excavation for years.



I'm sure Mark Pinkham, the "Gnostic Templar Grand Prior", would love nothing more than to ruin an historical treasure in order to sell more books and burnish his credentials as an "historian" - which he's anything but.



Oh, this ought to be good...



Yes, Reverend, let's hear your thoughts on that...

TCP

Thank you so much for your detailed responses, Timothy Carmain. Because now I can just let you own words speak for you as to the kind of man you are and your moral character. Anyone on the forum can judge for themselves:

“This provides me with the legal qualifications necessary to officiate at marriages.”

“Do you really believe, Jeff, that with all my "secrets" being plastered all over the Internet for the last decade - much of which I wrote myself - that I would have passed background checks for inclusion into very conservative, very traditional, very Catholic organizations unless there was some other mitigating factors at work?”

“Think about it - gay, pagan, card-carrying liberal Democrat. That alone should be grounds for disqualification from the get-go.”

“At surface level that would indeed be a real conundrum. It only serves to know that you know nothing about what goes on below the surface.”

> I've made no secret of the fact that I was not born "Foix-Carmain" or
> "Carmain-Perillos", but simply "Carmain". I'd never even thought of
> amending "Perillos" to my surname until I started having problems with
> that Filip Coppens person

"It was only necessary to document my descent from an ancestor noted in the family preuves-de-noblesse issued and recorded in 1669, using wills, baptismal and marriage records, U.S. census records from 1790, etc."

No professional genealogist has ever done this. No professional genealogist has ever even tried to manually verify what is found on genealogies by such manual means.