Arcadia Discussion Zone

Here you'll find out what senior masons in London's City talk about:

http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/anglo_saxon_mission_presentation_transcript_en.html
>>>
"The planned sequence is as follows: Israel attacks Iran, then there’s a ceasefire during which time there is heavy governmental military controls over populations in all Western countries. Then China is attacked by a biological weapon. It’s a flu-like disease, it spreads like wildfire, this goes all over the world, and then they have a major Third World War.
And then, by this time, 50% of the population will be destroyed – not only because of the war or the plague, but because, as many of you watching this will understand, the infrastructure goes down in situations like this: There’s no food in the supermarkets, there’s no gas in the pumps, the telecommunication goes down, there may not even be water coming out of the taps."



Of course lower ranks (junior masons) don't know anything about this plans, they're busy running hospitals, charites and such ...

There's a page talking about an interview with an anonymous man in 2005. The links to both audio and video don't seem to work.

The first bullet point says: 'There is a planned Third World War, which will be nuclear and biological. Our source believes that this is on track to be initiated within the next 18-24 months.'

It didn't happen though, did it?

If you buy into unsubstantiated nonsense like this, you live in fear and panic now, not at the time any putative man-made disaster might happen. Paranoia can annoy-ya. Live life and enjoy it.

Roscoe-esque conspiro-trash Egi.

John -
The interview was made in February 2010. From there he made the schedule.
The meeting that guy was referring to took place in 2005.


rs2008 -
you might be right. You might be wrong. I got no proof if this stuff is nonsense or happening. We see that Iran could be attacked one day - and that the world would understand. And then ... why not wipe out "the yellow danger" using a special modified bird flu virus? From an US-point of view this sounds very logical.

I believe that's called a "clusterf**k", as Columbus was neither a stone mason (which is what any "Ancient order of Masons" in his time would have been comprised of) nor a high-born nobleman (which would have been required for investiture in the Order of the Golden Fleece).

Neither was he a knight of the Portuguese Order of Christ; nor was his father-in-law, Bartolomeu Perestrello.


TCP

I am so impressed. A man "Who worked in the City of London" attends a meeting that he says he shouldn't really been at and hears stuff.

So what does he do? Does he contact Jonathan Evans immediately? No, he sits on it for five years and then decides to contact an off-shoot of a conspiracy site, the main one being http://projectcamelotportal.com/

We are not given to know who our man is, where he was, why he was there, no factual information at all. How entirely trustworthy he seems. As if...

My son was working until very recently in nuclear medicine at a very well known London hospital. One half a day a week the department discusses current topics. It might be the latest medical papers from around the world on advancements in nuclear medicine or, as occasionally happens, they role-play terrorist attacks. A bomb goes off at a football stadium. The Police control the situation, sending people out and home as fast as possible and then they find out it was a dirty bomb. What happens next? They have no knowledge of how to assess a nuclear problem and so they call the army. The army have nobody capable of assessing the situation either: what happens then?

Yes of course, they call the hospitals that deal in nuclear medicine and that have nuclear physicists in full time employment. These hospitals are well aware of their inevitable role in such events and they prepare for them, hence the role-play.

Meanwhile some numpty eavesdrops or walks in to see an old colleague. He or she is dumped in the middle of a nuclear scenario, with people seeming to plan for a real event. And so they are doing.

So even if such a scenario as our anonymous man overheard actually occurred, it may well have not been as it seemed. I expect our man is just another paranoid delusionist though.

Private. The Royal Masonic Hospital, Ravenscourt Park, West London. Now closed. Art Deco building is protected and survives.

Almost anything that threatened the royal court or the catholic church would have been highly subversive, pre revolution.

It's unsure whether Isaac Newton was a Mason, but it's highly probable given much of the esoteric work he published. Newton's work had a huge influence on French thinking and would in itself have seemed subversive.

A good factual but easy to read insight into society in the years before the revolution, and the influence of Newton especially, is 'Passionate Minds: Emilie du Chatelet, Voltaire, and the Great Love Affair of the Enlightenment' by David Bodanis.

After the revolution Abbé Barruel, a Jesuit priest, took refuge in England and published the four volume 'Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism'. English translation 1797. Essentially he proposes the French revolution as a conspiracy on the part of sinister occult groups, Masonry included. Conspiracy books have been popular ever since, as we know on this forum.

In 1818 Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall first linked Freemasonry to the Knight's Templar in his book 'The Mystery of Baphomet Revealed, citing Persian gnostic Manichaeism.

Hear hear!! And thanks for the tips whoop_john.

As regards the obediences I am sure you are right. As near zero as makes no odds.

There would appear to be little connection, observational or otherwise, between the founding of Grand Lodge first mentioned in Anderson's constitutions of 1723 (mentioning a founding of 1716 but now taken to mean 1717) and a defunct military order disbanded in 1314. 400 years is a long time.

Many Templars spoke and read Arabic, allowing them to access the vast knowledge and learning of those people, specifically where they came into contact with the custodians of it, the sufi schools in Spain, Southern France, Turkey and the Holy Land. Sufis in particular have always tried to stress the common points between Islam and Christianity. See the original eight inscriptions on the inner walls of the Dome of the Rock, the first sufi building which refer to Christ, addressed to a Christian audience, in a spirit of brotherhood. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/DoTR.html

There are several ways of interpreting this building as the 'Temple of Solomon' as I have explained elsewhere in this forum. One of course is that it is reputably built on the site of the original Temple (actually its unlikely to be the case - see the Bordeaux Pilgrim's account of the site and other problems with a water supply for the sacrifices).

Is the temple that is shown on Templar seals really the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?


Early seals appear to show the sufi Dome of the Rock shrine as a much better likeness. The seals clearly have the onion bulge that is patently missing on the Holy Sepulchre, whose dumpy main dome is altogether flatter and squat. Of course the Dome of the Rock would have had the cross rather than the crescent on top during the Christian conquest.

What do others think?



Evrard de Barres:

Regnaud de Vichier:


The brazen Baphomet head of the Templars and the brazen or gold (spelled the same in Arabic) Abufihamat (father of understanding) head of the sufis is one and the same. A philosophical system of 'polishing one's own head'. A man whose inner consciousness is transformed by study and activity in sufi exercises. Hmmn, Are the Templars really intolerant of these guys? What is going on here?

Gerbert, who studied in sufi schools had a later miraculous oracular head that he'd made. Albertus Magnus (b 1193) spent 30 years making his marvellous brass head. Thomas Aquinas, who was a pupil of Magnus smashed his own head 'That talked too much'. Magnus dressed as an Arab, taught in Paris from the the works of the sufis al-Farabi (Alfarabius) Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and al-Ghazzali (Algazael).

'The Crusades Through Arab Eyes' by Amin Maalouf gives us some insight to the benevolent and tolerant attitude toward Moslems in Jerusalem who wished to worship at the Al Aqsa Mosque during their guardianship of it, as recounted by an Arab himself.

Winding forward through the centuries...

I believe the earliest identifiable Masonic artifacts are the two "Master's" chairs of 1595 and 1597 belonging originally to the Minshull family, now possessed by Lord Northampton. These both clearly show the black and white checkerboard floor and Masonic arch motif carved in the wood.

The symbolism is so similar to the darkness and light motifs used in some sufi schools, especially the Illuminist school of Ibn Massarah of Cordoba, that any random coincidence would seem extraordinary. To a sufi the light squares stand for truth, illumination and understanding. Black is a homonym in Arabic for the same word as wise (fehm) and here it also stands for the darkness of the ignorant. The imagery stems originally from the famous (to a Moslem) light verse in the Koran, Sura 24, 35.

It's all sounding rather Masonic.

There too was another sufi organisation, founded by Dhu'l nun al-Misri, also called The builders or Masons. So there was a precursor to the Masons called the Masons. Incidentally, Dhul Nun's partial translation of Egyptian Heiroglyphs into Coptic, still actively spoken in Dhu'l Nun's day, was of enormous help to Champollion in his later work with the Rosetta and other stones, as Champollion acknowledged.

Here are a couple of pages from Dhu'l Nun's book translating Coptic into Arabic. Unhappily none of his philosophical books survive.



Many of the alchemical and mystical traditions studied by early Freemasons such as Ashmole, Aubrey et. al. stemmed from sufi schools. Alchemy stemming from al-Ghazzali, 1058-1111, Rosicrucianism from Abdul Qadir al-Jilani, the 'Rose of Baghdad', 1077–1166 (yes Andreae's secret society did have a forerunner), The Cabala from the Faithful Brothers of Basra, by way of Ibn Gabirol (Avicebron).

Engraving from Ashmole's alchemical Theatrum Chemicum

I see the connection, John. Babphomet as a product of wishful conspiracy thinking. Well spotted. Châpeau!

Hammer-Purgstall is not a reliable source to a historian. He had some serious hang-ups concerning objects that supposedly originated from the Templars.

I have no idea. Did the Holy Sepulchre have an onion dome originally, as opposed to a hemisphere? You seem to know. What did it look like?



I don't know where the term Baphomet originated, although the word clearly has an existence. Contemporary Arabs asserted that they conversed with Templars happily and of all the crusading forces were the most civilised, although that would not have been hard to achieve.

The term 'Baphomet' is understandable to at least some Arabic speaking sufis, who will always look at the triliteral roots of Arabic words for any associated meanings.

Take Kitab alf layla wa-layla. Using the Abjad system the sufi is immediately alerted to an inner meaning. Who could guess from the fairy tales we all know, the Thousand and One Nights, that there is initiatory meaning contained within the Arabic? We would surely look at Aladdin's Wonderful Lamp, Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves and The Seven Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor in a different light. This is not a made up example, the book really is a sufi initiatory book. Sure you can enjoy the fairy tales.

There was a notable sufi master who never spoke at all, but taught many people. One day he heard a small insect which was in his way as he walked. He stooped and moved it out of the way and his closest pupils knew there was absolutely nothing wrong with his hearing. A Templar could learn as well as anyone else from such a person. No words needed.

You want a list? It was already huge by the time of the Crusades. Advisers to rulers wherever the spread of Islam landed.

What tends to mystify more than anything else is that sufis deliberately do not set up churches, mosques or permanent foundations, they never have done. They might build shrines to revered saints here and there. This alone makes westerners think that they were not very important and not very many in number or a significant phenomenon. Sufis' issue with permanent structures is that they remain after the active teacher has gone and we all know that this is how churches and fossilised religions spring up, lacking its active teacher and the inner dynamic.

The Dome of the Rock is unique. It is regarded by sufis as the first building built according to sufic geometric principles. It had a purpose and meaning related to its location and Xtian superstitions. It contains a message to Moslems too, naturally.

How often do you hear of the millions of sufis that abound today that are actively teaching, as they have always done? There are many false and noisier sufi groups also, especially in the west, which muddies the present water. So how do you tell real gold from false gold?

As Arabic and Islam form the bulk of the traditional framework, it's hard for a westerner to work with the material, under a sufi teacher. And as daft as a non-Freemason dickering around within Masonic material. Probably best to follow another path.

Sufism has been under as much attack from Islam over the centuries as the west has from Catholic authority. Sufis in Arabic countries, where they most proliferate, thus tend to operate within its confines and concepts. The real dynamic, leading to self-realisation, illumination, 'if your eye be single your whole body will be full of light' stuff (as the bible editors forgot to scratch out). This has nothing to do with religious dogma of any kind. In fact the opposite, dogma usually hinders any progress.

The Sloane manuscript 3329, circa 1700, describes a five points of fellowship Masonic embrace and a secret word, 'Mahabyn'. The sufis use a greeting word and say a similar word, 'Muhabba'. It means, in Arabic, love.

Here is my source TCP
I thought it was interesting

In Grace A. Fendler's New Truths About Columbus (1934, p. 39), we learn that Columbus "might have been a member of the great Order of the Golden Fleece... This would account for Columbus being called 'a weaver' or the 'son of a weaver', for the Great Guild of Weavers was also concerned with the weaving of the Golden Fleece. Note the quotation inscribed by this Guild on the English Town Hall of Hereford:
We need not sail to Colchis against dragons to prevail,
Or yoke wild bulls to gain the Golden Fleece.
The Golden Fleece will satisfy your heart
Content that the Weavers give.
http://www.wisdomportal.com/Columba/Notes-DoveOfDiscovery.html
http://www.wisdomportal.com/Columba/ColumbusNotes.html
Christopher Columbus' navigators were members of the extant Portuguese Templar Order, and the Templar cross was featured prominently on the sails of his ships in 1492.

http://www.crystalinks.com/templars1.html

When the Templars lost their position, the Head was secretly passed from one order to the other, insuring the chain of world power. After sojourning not far from Europe, the Caput has followed the travels organized by the Secret Orders. Bear in mind that, after their fall, the Templars migrated all over the globe, and in particular to Scotland, Portugal and America. In Portugal, they re-emerged under the name of Knights of Christ. Two famous members of this order are Vasco de Gama and Prince Henry the Navigator. Christopher Columbus, who supposedly discovered the Americas, was, in fact, married to a Knight of Christ’s family member who provided him with maps and information. It is then under the banner of the patte cross that Columbus’ three vessels arrived in the new world.

After the official disappearance of the Templars and "from the political standpoint, the Order of Malta secretly inherited the Templar initiation. The chief of the Order of Malta had ambassadors and he was dealing as an equal with the pope." In Portugal, the Order was not forbidden but was simply renamed the Order of the Christ. The Templars, to display that they had redeemed themselves from their impurities, changed their red cross for a white one. Quickly an abundance of initiatic Orders recuperated their members using similar rituals and teachings. These occult groups are, in fact, secretly controlled by the same characters. The most renown are the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem or Knights of Rhodes/Malta, the Teutonic Order, the Order of the Garret, the Order of the Star, the Order of the Golden Fleece, the Orders of Saint Michael and the Order of Santiago.
http://www.archangel-michael.us/memberspages/secretstemplar.php

Now for Whoop John and RS
I know guys there are some wonderful kind charitable Freemasons
and God Bless them all

BUT there are many Freemasons in Politics
all over the world
Eginolf makes a point do the underlings of Freemasonry know what the higher ups agenda is
and let us hope it is not a corrupted one
Men are not infallible
and there is no doubt that freemasonry wields considerable power in poitics
Jim Shaw's Initiation to the 33rd Degree at the Washington D.C. Temple at which the participants drank out of human skulls: Two former U.S. Presidents, a Scandinavian King, an internationally famous Evangelist, two other internationally famous Clergymen, and a very high federal official gave him his certificate.

Gentlemen what is the purpose of drinking from a human skull?
this ritual goes way back but what is the symbolism?
this is the same thing the Templars interrogations were about
Worshipping of a head
whose head are they drinking from?

I know I know if you tell me you might have to kill me

whoop John
I read that the Grandmaster of the Templars De Sonnac actually went through some blood ritual with the Arabs
it made him a blood brother
he went through the ritual

there was a intermingling of blood
Hear of anything like that...American Indians had a ritual of cutting ones hands and uniting them

was the Arab way similiar?

True, one won't find a goat-headed "Mahomet" idol representing the Prophet (peace be upon him) among the Islamic "Moors"; but the black he-goat can be found in the pantheon of the "other Moors" who gave us Mari, the "Black Madonna" - namely her son, Akerbeltz, the god of the Pyrenean witches. He goes hand-in-hand with his mother, "La Mourenita" - or the Little Moor(ess). His midnight rites, called the Akelarre or "Field of the Black Goat", were held in the high places on Fridays.

Ergo, if one were to cast aspersions against the Templars for worshiping a "Moorish" idol and wasn't aware of the double-entendre, one "might" be looking for "Mahomet" or "Baphomet" in a religion that eschews idolatry in all forms and miss entirely what the country-folk right under their noses were doing on Friday evenings...

TCP

Cue Roscoe's quote about the villagers and fairies etc.
Regards
Nic

And in this case, he'd be right. I realize that it would be inconceivable (not to mention impermissible) to the thousands of scholars and researchers who have massive intellectual investments in "Islamic" interpretations, but Muslims can't offer up the requisite goat's head in quite the same way that ordinary French peasants can. Nor, for that matter, the Black Madonna so dear to St. Bernard. Had the Templars really bought into the philosophy they were sent to the Holy Land to eradicate, do you think idolatry would have been part of the equation?

TCP

All quite false. Columbus was called "the son of a weaver" because his father Domenico was a master weaver, this according to over 60 documents extant in the public archives of the Republic of Genoa.

Here is a link listing every knight admitted to the Order of the Golden Fleece since its inception in 1430 - you will note that there are no Columbuses (Colóns) before 1670 (nor Sinclairs, for that matter, ever):

Knights of the Golden Fleece



False. Bartolomeu Perestrello (whose family, like Columbus' own, was of Genoese origin) was first a fidalgo-escudeiro or "armigerous gentleman" in the household of Infante João of Portugal, Grand Master of the Portuguese Knights of Santiago; and on the latter's death in 1442 joined the household of his brother Infante Henrique (Henry the Navigator) in the same capacity. In 1446 he was given the hereditary governorship of the island of Porto-Santo, and died twenty-two years before his daughter Filipa ever married Columbus. Perestrello was never admitted as a knight to either the Order of Santiago or the Order of Christ. Infante Enrique refers to Perestrello in surviving letters as "a gentleman of my household", not as a Knight of Christ.

Neither were the crosses on Columbus' ships those of the Templars or the Order of Christ, but of San Jorge, or Saint George. He sailed in Spanish ships, not Portuguese.

TCP

Baphomet was reputedly a goat-horned head? Abu el-Atahiyya (748–828), famous sufi poet, had a circle of disciples, the 'Wise Ones' who adopted the goat symbol, reference to the nomadic Bedouin tribe's name Anz, Aniza. A torch or candle between goat horns symbolised the light of illumination from the intellect (head) of the 'goat,' the Aniza teacher. After Atahiyya’s death sufi tradition has it that a group from his school migrated to Arab Spain, before the middle of the ninth century. Known to have used plant alkaloids. Circled anti-clockwise, 12 members and a teacher. I don't know what else went down on a Friday night.

Robert Graves, the great historian of myth, stated: "...'Robin', the generic name for a Chief or Grand Master, represents the Persian Rah-bin ('he who sees the road'). A Berber off-shoot of the Aniza school was known as 'the Two-Horned', and in Spain lived under the protection of the Aragonese Kings, who intermarried alike with the Prophet's royal descendants at Granada and with the English monarchy."

"It is evidently this particular cult that reached the British Isles. An illustration on the cover of Saducismus Triumphatus, a 1681 chap-book, shows Robin Goodfellow, horns on his head and candle in hand, capering among a coven of witches who number 13 like the Berber groups. A Two-Horned devotee wore his ritual knife, the ad-dhame ('athame' to present-day witches) unsheathed and, as a reminder of his mortality, danced in a kafan, or winding-sheet (which is the most probable derivation of coven), at a meeting known as az zabat, 'the Powerful Occasion'. Hence the 'Witches Sabbath', or 'Esbar'."

Yes, I know that Roger - the charges were spurious, but that doesn't mean they weren't grounded in popular superstition.

TCP

Fascinating, but flawed. I don't doubt Idries Shah's points about the pre-Islamic Aniza tribe of northern Arabia - the Tribe of the Goat - but to suggest that the poet Abu el-Atahiyya was himself a Sufi is a bit beyond the pale. Later Sufis may have found an appeal in his asceticism, but the poet was never a member of a Sufi tariqah. Philosopher, yes - mystic, no.

The parallels drawn to European witchcraft by both Shah and Robert Graves were drawn from sources attributed to their friend and collaborator Gerald Gardner, the inventor of modern Wicca. Gardner included a tremendous amount of material for his creation taken from non-European and non-Pagan sources, including Sufism. In other words, the tail wags the dog. Much of what Gardner presents as the "Old Religion" of Europe has little if anything to do with old Europe - and certainly nothing at all to do with the practices and folklore of the Basque witches, which Gardner had little use for.

So, interesting argument, but not tenable.

TCP

The crest, second from the right, belongs to Clan Halyburton of Scotland.

Can it be Satan?

It would be fun if people actually walked around with things like that on their heads.

My family's arms, which are Dutch in origin, seem to have a mad winged crescent on the top. Probably why I see sufis everywhere - the crescent of Islam.

I am sure there are experts here who can tell me what it means.

A fitting bit of nonsense indeed for a thread that started with Prince Giorgio.

What I find odd about this kitchen-sink approach to amalgamation is that those who promote it can't seem to decide whether to lionize or demonize the Templars.

TCP