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 Post subject: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 6:25 pm 
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The White Horse at Westbury
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I'm very interested in hill figures at the moment, particularly white horses, and specifically the eight surviving horses in Wiltshire and the one in Oxfordshire, all of which I've visited recently. These figures are first and foremost enjoyable landscape follies, but they also relate to a thread on Paganism, in as much as the oldest of the horses, at Uffington, is one of Britain's most important pagan artefacts, and also because the enthusiasm for cutting these figures into hillsides - a practice known as Leucipottomy - that was at its peak in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, was in part inspired by a misunderstanding about the pagan origins of the horse at Uffington.

There are a number of hill figures in southern England - the chalk downland that covers many areas makes for an ideal medium into which to form these shapes - ranging from little understood figures of unknown origin, such as the Cerne Abbas Giant and the Long Man of Wilmington, to 19th century creations like King George III atop a horse at Weymouth, and the 20th century regimental cap badges cut into the hillsides around Fovant in south-west Wiltshire, along with a giant kiwi cut by New Zealand soldiers in the First World War.

But is is the horses that most interest me at the moment - the eight in Wiltshire and the one at Uffington. This one dates from the late Bronze Age, and was cut about three thousand years ago. The eight in Wiltshire are, in relative terms, much more recent, as the dates below show, although some are thought to be sited upon older figures. After Uffington, the other eight horses are Westbury (cut in 1778), Cherhill (1780), Marlborough (1804), Alton Barnes (1812), Hackpen (1838), Broad Town (1864), Pewsey (1937) and Devizies (2000).

I want to say a little bit about all of these, but I wish to concentrate first on the horses at Uffington and Westbury, since these are the oldest, and one was inspired by the other, albeit as a result of a misconception.

Let's firstly return to Westbury. This is the horse as it appears today. In order to save on regular restoration costs it was filled with concrete and painted in the 1950s, and re-concreted in the 1990s, so this is no longer a chalk figure as such. However, the shape you see was cut in 1778 by George Gee, steward to Lord Abingdon. It was a replacement for an older horse, thought to date from the 1600s, and referred to by a Reverend Wise in a 1742 publication. The present horse, however, looks like this.

Image

I've seen an artist's impression of the horse believed to date from the 1600s, and it looks very different to the one here today.

From Rupert Matthews Haunted Places of Wiltshire:

Quote:
The old horse was a very different creature. It had a long neck and perky, upright ears. The body was long and low-slung, rather like that of a dachshund, and carried unmistakeable signs that this was a male horse. The tail was lifted in an arch as if swishing flies aside and ended in a crescent, not unlike a moon.(p.15)


As we shall see in a later thread, this horse is sometimes known as the Moon Stallion, which is perhaps a reference to its earlier incarnation.

When George Gee cut his horse, therefore, he changed it considerably - it's even thought he changed the direction it was facing - and this is a shame in itself, but it's interesting to learn that one of his reasons for doing so was because he thought the original figure did not look horse-like enough.

Hold that thought, and travel north-east across the county, to the border with Oxfordshire, and the horse at Uffington.
Image

This isn't particularly horse-like either; it's a very stylised representation of a horse, at the very least. It's also, as you can tell, difficult to photograph. This artist's impression from Wikipedia gives a better view of something that was, surely, designed to be seen from the air, and was constructed in tribute to the gods above.
Image

But however stylised and unusual the horse may appear, there can be little doubt that this giant hill figure - known at the time as the second wonder of Britain (after Stonehenge) - was the inspiration for the Westbury horse.

And herein lies the confusion that underpinned the construction of this later horse, and doubtless many of those that followed it. Thanks to the work of the Oxford Archaelogical Unit in the 1990s, who used a technique known as OSL (Optical Stimulated Luminescence) which calculates when buried soil was last exposed to the sunlight, we now know that the Uffington White Horse is almost three thousand years old, and dates from the late Bronze Age. It is therefore a pagan symbol.

But the horse cutters of the late 18th and early 19th centuries didn't know this. They believed it was much younger in origin, and a Christian symbol, probably cut as late as AD871, to celebrate King Alfred's victory over the Danes at Ashdown. In other words, it was seen as symbolising a victory by Christian Anglo-Saxons over pagan Danes. In fact, the later horse cutters were unconsciously echoing an expression of paganism.

Returning to Westbury, and continuing on this theme, the following is from English Heritage, who are responsible for this particular site.

Quote:
This famous landmark ... has changed over time. Local records from 1742 suggest that the horse was originally cut in the late 1600s, probably to commemorate the supposed battle of Ethandun, thought to have taken place at Bratton Camp in AD878.


It should be noted at this point that both Westbury (aka Westbury / Bratton) and Uffington both occupy ancient Bronze or Iron Age hillforts, later utilised by the Anglo-Saxons. It is easy to see, perhaps, how the origin of the horses on these sites were a subject of confusion.

English Heritage continue:

Quote:
In the 17th century, it had become popular to commemorate these supposed Saxon battle victories over the pagan Danes with white horses, in celebration of the belief that the Saxons had brought Christianity to Britain. The tradition probably derived from the mistaken belief that the Uffington White Horse in Oxfordshire had been created in Saxon times to celebrate such a victory.


That said, even before the definitive survey of the 1990s, most people seem to have been quite open minded in their interpretation of when this oldest horse in England dated from, and what it symbolised. Perhaps the ambiguity was no bad thing. As Jane Cooper argues in her 2000 guide, White Horse Hill and Waylands Smithy:

Quote:
For the horse [at Uffington] to have survived all this time it must have been significant to a succession of cultures and to have been thought a "special" place. It would seem plausible that this significance is related to the many burials found in the area. Possibly the horse was a symbol acceptable to both pagan and Christian beliefs, including that of the Celtic goddess Epona, who represented the victory of life over death.(p.10)


Uffington is an amazing site. I don't know it that well yet, or this topic, really (others like Roscoe have written about Uffington in much more detail in the past), so this only scratches the surface, but just to add a little bit more about it.

The site is steeped in legend, as is the nearby long barrow at Waylands Smithy. The most famous legend of Uffington involves Dragon Hill, beneath the main slopes - one can't help but wonder, incidentally, if such a creature might have been some kind of inspiration for the figure above - seen here from the flank of the figure.

Image

It is here, according to local folklore, that Saint George killed the dragon, so staining the earth with its blood that the grass never grew in this spot again, hence the slightly flattened out top of the mound remains bare.

In the 18th and 19th centuries fairs were held at Uffington, and the hill figure was routinely spruced up, or "scoured". It was a very popular place for the old sport of cheese rolling, where a giant cheese is rolled down a hill, and people chase after it.

The white horse was of great interest to Thomas Hughes (1822-1896) who wrote Tom Brown's School Days, and who also wrote a book called The Scouring of the White Horse.

As I said above, this is such a rich topic that I've hardly done it justice, but I hope it may have been of some interest, and may inspire those with the opportunity to visit these delightful follies in the landscape.

I'll add some more later, though much more briefly, on the other seven horses.


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 7:34 pm 
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Other Hillfort Horses

Aside from Uffington and Westbury, two other horses stand on the site of ancient hillforts - those at Cherhill and Alton Barnes. This tends to make these horses the best ones to visit, since they stand on accessible land, are well served with footpaths, and have much else of interest to experience when you go there.

The white horse at Cherhill was designed by a Doctor Alsop of the nearby town of Calne, in 1780. It is said that he shouted directions at the cutters from the road below, using an early homemade version of a megaphone.

As you can see here, grey skies notwithstanding, it's a great sight.
Image

And from slightly further back.
Image

Apparently the horse's eye was once filled with upturned bottles, in order to make it sparkle in the sunlight.

This is the site of a former Iron Age settlement called Oldbury Castle, and is also the site of the Landsdowne Obelisk, put up in 1845 by Lord Landsdowne. Here you can see horse and obelisk together.
Image

The hills at Alton Barnes were also settled during the Iron Age, and today this is magnificent walking country, crossed by the Wandsdyke Trail. The horse was commissioned by Robert Pile of Alton Barnes in 1812, but the person originally contracted to cut it absconded with the twenty pound advance payment, and Robert Pile ended up making it himself.

Here it is, viewed from a distance.
Image

And from closer up.
Image

And this is standing above its ear, looking down the hill towards the village of Alton Barnes. There was a big crop circle in this field not so long ago.
Image

These pictures don't really do it justice (there is a superb one on this website's gallery, showing the crop circle), but aesthetically, I think this is my favourite of the horses. He seems a younger horse than the others, and close up has a jaunty, coltish and slightly mischievous demeanour.

Alton Barnes is a wonderful place to visit, and I'd highly recommend a day walking the hillside trails there. This is looking north, from Milk Hill, towards Avebury.
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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 8:04 pm 
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Have you heard of the 'Rockley Down Horse' near Marlborough? I seem to remember it from an Arthur C. Clarke book from years ago. Apparently it was discovered purely by chance in 1948 when a field was ploughed and it measured around 126 ft. Apparently only one photograph of it survives, and no one knows who created it and when. A bit of a mystery eh?

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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 8:15 pm 
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Crow wrote:
Have you heard of the 'Rockley Down Horse' near Marlborough? I seem to remember it from an Arthur C. Clarke book from years ago. Apparently it was discovered purely by chance in 1948 when a field was ploughed and it measured around 126 ft. Apparently only one photograph of it survives, and no one knows who created it and when. A bit of a mystery eh?


No, I haven't. How intriguing. I'll pursue that, thanks. Many of these figures have been lost, and as you'll see later on, in the case of the Pewsey horse, if they are not regularly maintained, they can fade from view quite quickly. There used to be many more horses in Wiltshire than there are today.

I referred above to the kiwi made by New Zealand soldiers in Wiltshire during WWI. There was also a giant map of Australia made at the same time, by Australian troops, that has now sadly completely disappeared. The link below has some photos.

http://www.hows.org.uk/personal/hillfig ... ompton.htm


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 8:28 pm 
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Here's a little bit more on the Rockley White horse, referred to above.

http://www.wiltshirewhitehorses.org.uk/rockley.html


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 8:46 pm 
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Commemorative Horses

Some white horses were either created or reconstructed for the purposes of commemorating specific events - in two cases, coronations, in one, the dawn of a new millenium.

This horse on Hackpen Hill, near Avebury, was cut by Henry Eatwell, the parish clerk of the nearby village of Broad Hinton, with the help of a local publican, in 1837, to celebrate the coronation of Queen Victoria.

Image

The horse at Pewsey was cut in 1937, by the local fire brigade, on the occasion of the crowning of King George VI. It was designed by George Marples, a leading hill figure expert of his time. It replaced another horse on this site, carved in 1785 under the direction of Robert Pile, who if you recall designed the Alton Barnes horse, but this had long been lost to the ravages of time and exposure to the elements. The horse at Pewsey occupies a magnificent site, looking down over the eponymous vale, but when I went there earlier this year, it was in a very sorry state, and clearly in need of restoration.
Image

However, I happened to go past a couple of weeks ago and was pleased to see that it had been given a complete facelift, and was looking very smart indeed. I understand that the last such restoration was in 2004, so this gives some idea of how frequently these figures need to be maintained. The newly groomed Pewsey horse:
Image

The most recently cut horse is the one at Devizies, although as with some of the others, an older horse once stood here, in this case cut in 1845. The new horse, on Roundway Hill, the site of an important Civil War battle, was made for the 2000 millenium, although it was originally desinged, by Peter Greed, back in 1954. It is the only horse of the nine, aside from the one at Uffington, that runs from left to right as you look at it. The others all face to the left.
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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 9:00 pm 
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Other Horses

Two further horses complete the collection of nine in this part of England.

The horse at Broad Town has only quite recently been restored, having been allowed to fade away after the Second World War, during which time, like the other horses, it was covered up in order to prevent it from being used as a navigational aid by German aircraft. It was originally cut in 1864 by Wiliam Simmonds, a local farmer.
Image

The horse at Marlborough, right on the outskirts of the town itself, is one of the oldest, and the smallest. It was designed and cut in 1804 by a schoolboy called William Canning, and then restored in the 1990s. Interestingly, its elongated shape makes it the most similar in design to the horse at Uffington.
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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 9:28 pm 
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The Legend of the Moon Stallion

White horses inevitably have legends and folk tales associated with them. Perhaps the best known is the one about the horse at Uffington descending into the valley below, known as the Manger, where it sleeps at night.

The Manger at Uffington, a unusually shaped valley, formed at the end of the last Ice Age
Image

The ridges and hollows are known as the Giants' Stairs
Image

My favourite tale also involves this horse, but more so its faraway neighbour in Wiltshire, the horse at Westbury, and is recounted by Rupert Matthews, in his Haunted Places of Wiltshire. His tale begins in Westbury.

Quote:
Carved on a hillside ... is a white horse. It is in a highly visible position, and when the sun dips down to the western horizon the horse can glow with an eerie red light as if bathed in blood. If local legend is to be believed, this horse is not merely a chalk figure but a phantom horse of terrifying appearance, which goes by the name of the Moon Stallion. This powerful horse, locals believe, leaves its hillside on moonlit evenings to take on three dimensional form as a giant spectral stallion. It then gallops off over the downs, past the enigmatic stone circle at Avebury, and along the ancient Ridgeway road, which was old when the Romans came here. Eventually, the Moon Stallion reaches the white horse of Uffington. The two horses stay together for the night, before the Moon Stallion retraces its path to Westbury, and takes up its place above the town. (p.14)


The Moon Stallion, at rest
Image

White horses are great. We should make more of them. :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010 10:15 pm 
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richard.webster wrote:
This powerful horse, locals believe, leaves its hillside on moonlit evenings to take on three dimensional form as a giant spectral stallion. It then gallops off over the downs, past the enigmatic stone circle at Avebury, and along the ancient Ridgeway road, which was old when the Romans came here. Eventually, the Moon Stallion reaches the white horse of Uffington. The two horses stay together for the night, before the Moon Stallion retraces its path to Westbury, and takes up its place above the town.


What a wonderful story! Who knows Richard, maybe they do? :wink:
I wonder why we seem to have a prevalence of Horses though, and not some other animal? You would've though that Mans best friend would've made it onto a hill or two wouldn't you?

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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2010 6:37 am 
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richard.webster wrote:
In the 18th and 19th centuries fairs were held at Uffington, and the hill figure was routinely spruced up, or "scoured". It was a very popular place for the old sport of cheese rolling, where a giant cheese is rolled down a hill, and people chase after it.


With the above in mind, it really warmed my heart to see this story in the newspaper this morning.

Hundreds Defy Cheese Rolling Ban
Hundreds of people yesterday defied a ban on an annual cheese rolling contest, cancelled due to health and safety fears.
Quote:
Runners and spectators met at Cooper’s Hill near Brockworth, Gloucs, to carry on the 200-year-old tradition in which competitors chase a 7lb wheel of Double Gloucester down a 200-yard incline. Fans held an unofficial contest and hundreds ignored warnings to attend this year’s event.


Great to see people defying the dreary commissars of "Health and Safety" to keep alive an old English tradition. Way to go!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... g-ban.html


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2010 10:11 pm 
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Quote:
Runners and spectators met at Cooper’s Hill near Brockworth, Gloucs, to carry on the 200-year-old tradition in which competitors chase a 7lb wheel of Double Gloucester down a 200-yard incline. Fans held an unofficial contest and hundreds ignored warnings to attend this year’s event.




Absolutely. It's usually covered on the news (albeit just a few seconds at the end of the broadcast) and routinely people are carted off with broken legs, sprained ankles and occasionally worse. Fair play to everyone who has a go, if they didn't, this custom would just die out.

There's a fab book you might be interested in Richard. It's A Dictionary of English Folklore by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud. ISBN 0-19-969104-5.

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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2010 10:18 pm 
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Crow wrote:
I wonder why we seem to have a prevalence of Horses though, and not some other animal? You would've though that Mans best friend would've made it onto a hill or two wouldn't you?


Well, that's certainly what I'd choose to put on a hillside, if I had one. It is odd, I agree, and I suppose it can only be because it started with a horse, and people just continued that tradition. I've been looking around on-line for other figures, not just in Wiltshire white horse country, but other counties, either existing or lost, and it is almost exclusively horses. I've found a lost one in Wiltshire that some think might have been a donkey, and a stag in Aberdeenshire. Plus we have the kiwi cut by Commonwealth soldiers. But I'll keep looking. :)


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2010 10:31 pm 
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Crow wrote:
Absolutely. It's usually covered on the news (albeit just a few seconds at the end of the broadcast) and routinely people are carted off with broken legs, sprained ankles and occasionally worse. Fair play to everyone who has a go, if they didn't, this custom would just die out.
There's a fab book you might be interested in Richard. It's A Dictionary of English Folklore by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud. ISBN 0-19-969104-5.


For some reason, I was quite cheered at the way in which people were told not to do this, and then just did it anyway.

And I like the mad eccentricity of the whole thing. Just the idea of people charging down a hill, in pursuit of a giant cheese. You couldn't make it up really; it's brilliant.

And I also like the idea of this whole tradition probably starting when someone accidently dropped a cheese at an Uffington fair, or wherever it happened, and then a load of people chasing it down a hill, getting to the bottom, and thinking, "That was fun, let's do that every year". :lol:

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll check that out.


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 11:51 pm 
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These are really interesting, Richard. Beautiful too.

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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 12:12 am 
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TCP wrote:
These are really interesting, Richard. Beautiful too.

Thanks, I'm glad you found it interesting. They were certainly fun to visit, particularly the ones I hadn't been to before; a real sense of anticipation as one approached each site, waiting for a horse to appear around the next bend in the road.

I tried to find you something in California, and found the Blythe geoglyphs, on the Colorado River, but no hill figures as such.

Well, apart from this one, obviously. :wink:

Image
Photo from Wikipedia, Jelson25


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 12:29 am 
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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 7:54 am 
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Horse or Dragon?

Image

Image

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/archaeo ... orse4.html

"In fact, considering the solar wheels on Iron Age horse coins and the wheel and cheese rolling games at the Uffington festivities, it seems most likely that the hill-figure represents the horse of the Celtic Sun-God, Beli. He was seen as the devil by Christian missionaries and was thus defeated by St. Michael or his earthly counterpart, St. George of local tradition. The Christianised scouring festival is, no doubt, a remnant of his worship and Dragon Hill, perhaps, his temple."


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 12:50 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
Horse or Dragon?

Image

Image

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/archaeo ... orse4.html

"In fact, considering the solar wheels on Iron Age horse coins and the wheel and cheese rolling games at the Uffington festivities, it seems most likely that the hill-figure represents the horse of the Celtic Sun-God, Beli. He was seen as the devil by Christian missionaries and was thus defeated by St. Michael or his earthly counterpart, St. George of local tradition. The Christianised scouring festival is, no doubt, a remnant of his worship and Dragon Hill, perhaps, his temple."


Both, a transformation/metamorphosis takes place in Eastern Mythology. That is why there are semblances of both the white horse and the dragon.

In a way this fixes a problem I've been having. In the following link Louvian quotes from this source about dragon's and an Eighth island.



viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1154&start=200

Quote:
Plutarch, who refers to the "fortunate isles" several times in his writings, locates them firmly in Atlantic geography in his vita of Sertorius, who, when struggling against chaotic civil war in the closing years of the Roman Republic, had tidings from mariners of certain islands a few days' sail from Hispania

where the air was never extreme, which for rain had a little silver dew, which of itself and without labour, bore all pleasant fruits to their happy dwellers, till it seemed to him that these could be no other than the Fortunate Islands, the Elysian Fields.[1]

from your links above

the ancient Greeks, this was where the maps ran out and the world came to an end. Classical writers linked the Canaries with the Garden of the Hesperides, the Elysian Fields, and even the lost continent of Atlantis. Seafarers insisted that "here be dragons" and told of a missing eighth island that unaccountably slipped between the seen and unseen worlds
http://www.worldandi.com/specialreport/ ... a22186.htm


Here we have reference to Uchaishravas, a seven headed flying horse and Sleipnir an eight footed horse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_horse_(mythology)

Quote:
Portrayal in myth
From earliest times white horses are mythologised as possessing exceptional properties, transcending the normal world by having wings (e.g. Pegasus from Greek mythology), or having horns (the unicorn). As part of its legendary dimension, the white horse in myth may be depicted with seven heads (Uchaishravas), eight feet (Sleipnir), sometimes in groups or singly. There are also white horses which are divinatory, who prophesy or warn of danger.

As a rare or distinguished symbol, a white horse typically bears the hero- or god-figure in ceremonial roles or in triumph over negative forces. Herodotus reported that white horses were held as sacred animals in the Achaemenid court of Xerxes the Great (ruled 486-465 BC), [2] while in other traditions the reverse happens when it was sacrificed to the gods.

In more than one tradition, the white horse carries patron saints or the world saviour in the end times (as in Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam), is associated with the sun or sun chariot (Ossetia) or bursts into existence in a fantastic way, emerging from the sea or a lightning bolt.

Though some mythologies are stories from earliest beliefs, other tales, though visionary or metaphorical, are found in liturgical sources as part of preserved, on-going traditions (see for example, "Iranian tradition" below).


and here we have the mythology of Sleipnir of the horse with eight legs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir

Quote:
Sleipnir


"Odin Rides to Hel" (1908) by W. G. Collingwood.In Norse mythology, Sleipnir (Old Norse "slippy"[1] or "the slipper"[2]) is an eight-legged horse. Sleipnir is attested in the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson. In both sources, Sleipnir is Odin's steed, is the child of Loki and Svaðilfari, is described as the best of all horses, and is sometimes ridden to the location of Hel. The Prose Edda contains extended information regarding the circumstances of Sleipnir's birth, and details that he is gray in color.

Additionally, Sleipnir is mentioned in a riddle found in the 13th century legendary saga Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks, in the 13th century legendary saga Völsunga saga as the ancestor of the horse Grani, and book I of Gesta Danorum, written in the 12th century by Saxo Grammaticus, contains an episode considered by many scholars to involve Sleipnir. Sleipnir is generally accepted as depicted on two 8th century Gotlandic image stones; the Tjängvide image stone and the Ardre VIII image stone.

Scholarly theories have been proposed regarding Sleipnir's potential connection to shamanic practices among the Norse pagans. In modern times, Sleipnir appears in Icelandic folklore as the creator of Ásbyrgi, in works of art, literature, in the names of ships, and as the name of a web browser.

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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 4:43 pm 
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Plutarch, who refers to the "fortunate isles" several times in his writings, locates them firmly in Atlantic geography in his vita of Sertorius, who, when struggling against chaotic civil war in the closing years of the Roman Republic, had tidings from mariners of certain islands a few days' sail from Hispania


Aren't the Scilly Isles known as the 'Fortunate Isles'? Or am i thinking of somewhere else?

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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 10:06 pm 
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Crow wrote:
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Plutarch, who refers to the "fortunate isles" several times in his writings, locates them firmly in Atlantic geography in his vita of Sertorius, who, when struggling against chaotic civil war in the closing years of the Roman Republic, had tidings from mariners of certain islands a few days' sail from Hispania


Aren't the Scilly Isles known as the 'Fortunate Isles'? Or am i thinking of somewhere else?


Lost worlds around the Scilly Isles made me think of the Arthurian legend of Lyonesse, the kingdom that supposedly once bordered Cornwall, before being swallowed up by the waves, and is now lost somewhere under the Atlantic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyonesse


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 10:39 pm 
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rain wrote:
Both, a transformation/metamorphosis takes place in Eastern Mythology. That is why there are semblances of both the white horse and the dragon ... Here we have reference to Uchaishravas, a seven headed flying horse and Sleipnir an eight footed horse ... and here we have the mythology of Sleipnir of the horse with eight legs.


Thanks for the references. I'll look into that some more. It shows the universality of these legends, and how they resonate across different cultures. I think the notion of transformation and metamorphosis could be important too.

The coins Sheila posted were interesting, because the images are very dragon-like, but I can see the horse at Uffington either way - dragon or pre-historic horse, maybe a very mighty beast of a type we wouldn't recognise today, like we wouldn't recognise a Minoan bull as a bull, and maybe some artistic licence in the carving as well. So maybe a hybrid, something in metamorphosis.

The proximity of Dragon Hill to the Uffington Horse also suggests dragon.

Thinking of dragons in that part of southern England, it's important to remember that the "white horse county" of Wiltshire and Uffington (on the Wilts-Oxon border) would have once been part of the historic Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex, and the symbol of Wessex is the Wyvern, another word for dragon, seen here on a Wessex flag.
Image

There is also a River Wyle in Wiltshire. Wyvern derives from the old French word wivre, meaning serpent, and there is a Foret de Woevres in eastern France, near Stenay, as referred to quite recently on another thread.

Dragon legends must have come from somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2010 11:14 pm 
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A bit more about Dragon Hill at Uffington, this is a closer view of it than the one I posted further up the thread, but like that one, taken from the flank of the horse / dragon on the high hill above. You get a real sense of its flattened out top.
Image

It looks like a place of ceremony, and seeing the little hill next to the big hill made me think of another Wessex hillfort that I know much better - the one on Cley Hill just outside Warminster, that I wrote about on the "Bogley Round Barrow" thread; a place steeped in many legends of its own.

Seen here from the hillfort above, "Little Cley Hill", thought to be man-made, looks to me to have a similar relationship with its bigger neighbour, in terms of proximity and relative scale, as that between Uffington hillfort and Dragon Hill. The path to the top makes one think of ceremonial processions.

Image

Julian Cope has talked in The Modern Antiquarian about how a large hill can be seen as a recumbent mother hill, with the little hill next to it forming the head. Others have detected the shape of the female form in certain other features of this landscape curiosity. In any event, it's an interesting coincidence at the very least that both sites have this same kind of two-hill relationship.


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2010 5:59 am 
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Did anyone mention Epona? The Horse Goddess. Or Rhiannon from the Mabinogion

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(Pan-Celtic) [ey-PONE-ah, AY-paw-nah or Ay-PAWN-nuh] "Divine Horse"; "The Great Mare"; Goddess of horses; Mother Goddess. Fertility, maternity, protectress of horses, horse-breeding, prosperity, dogs, healing springs, crops.

Horse goddess with fertility connotations. A popular equestrian goddess closely allied with the Celtic trade in, and domestic use of, horses. Concerned with healing, and with the fertility of domestic animals. The cult probably originated from Alesia in the heartland of Gallic resistance and location of Vercingetorix's final stand against Julius Caesar. She is arguably the only Celtic goddess to have been worshipped in Rome itself and her popularity was spread throughout the regions of Roman occupation (see also Morrigan). Her festival was celebrated on December 18.

Epona is typically with mares and foals, usually riding sidesaddle or merely in association with horses. She also holds cornucopiae sheaves of grain and other fruits suggesting an ancillary role as a vegetation goddess. Epona is also, on occasion, linked with dogs and birds.

Votive inscriptions have been found at Allerey, Armançon, and Essay (Côte d'Or), Jabreilles, Luxeuil, Santanay and others where sometimes she is alone with horse(s) and sometimes is depicted with the "mothers" (See Deae Matres). She was particularly worshipped by Roman cavalry regiments. At Armançon she rides in a cart reminiscent of the "tour" of other northern fertility goddess. In other circumstances Epona figurines are found associated with burial grounds such as La Horgue au Sabon illustrating the common link, well attested in ancient and modern cults, between fertility and death. Epona may also be enshrined close to thermal springs under which circumstance she often appears naked like a water nymph, e.g Allerey and Saulon-la-Chapelle.

Epona was also a Goddess able to bestow sovereignty on Celtic kings, old rites existed marrying the kings to her. Jean Markdale, author of the superb work on Celtic Goddesses, "The Women of the Celts", believes she may have been the first mother Goddess of Celts, predating even Danu.

In Scotland she is referred to as Bubona, and in England Lady Godiva is thought to be another version. Carvings of Epona also appear in Germany, and the Anglo-Saxons may also have adopted her in the form of their horse Goddess, Horsa. Other horse-associated Goddesses such as Macha, Edain, Rhiannon, and Maeve may have grown out of her myths.


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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2010 6:17 am 
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richard.webster wrote:

The proximity of Dragon Hill to the Uffington Horse also suggests dragon.

Thinking of dragons in that part of southern England, it's important to remember that the "white horse county" of Wiltshire and Uffington (on the Wilts-Oxon border) would have once been part of the historic Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex, and the symbol of Wessex is the Wyvern, another word for dragon, seen here on a Wessex flag.


The name Wyvern is a corruption of the Gaulish word Wouivre. The name Wouivre, is given to snakes that glide, to rivers that snake through the landscape, to telluric currents that snake underground from the depths of the terrestrial strata, bringing life that fructifies Earth and Man. The name is also given to such currents as we term cosmic or magnetic. is given to snakes that glide, to rivers that snake through the landscape, to telluric currents that snake underground from the depths of the terrestrial strata, bringing life that fructifies Earth and Man. The name is also given to such currents as we term cosmic or magnetic.

Dagobert II was murdered in the Foret des Wouivres during the winter solstice.

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 Post subject: Re: White Horses
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2010 6:58 am 
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richard.webster wrote:

The proximity of Dragon Hill to the Uffington Horse also suggests dragon.

Thinking of dragons in that part of southern England, it's important to remember that the "white horse county" of Wiltshire and Uffington (on the Wilts-Oxon border) would have once been part of the historic Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex, and the symbol of Wessex is the Wyvern, another word for dragon, seen here on a Wessex flag.


The name Wyvern is a corruption of the Gaulish word Wouivre. The name Wouivre, is given to snakes that glide, to rivers that snake through the landscape, to telluric currents that snake underground from the depths of the terrestrial strata, bringing life that fructifies Earth and Man. The name is also given to such currents as we term cosmic or magnetic. is given to snakes that glide, to rivers that snake through the landscape, to telluric currents that snake underground from the depths of the terrestrial strata, bringing life that fructifies Earth and Man. The name is also given to such currents as we term cosmic or magnetic.

Dagobert II was murdered in the Foret des Wouivres during the winter solstice.

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