Arcadia Discussion Zone

I'm with you on this one, Tim. In comparison to these crista theories, hypothesizing on Templars in America seems sane and rational.

FOR TCP

I have a question for you, what authenticates a document?

EDIT TO ADD: Sorry trying to remember where I read this but it goes something like this, The Templars used to brand calfes and when they were of age they use their hides for the vellum to create Notes of Hand? This method was then used as a safeguard against forgeries. I was wondering if you had of or knew of this practice and whether this extended to any other documents the Templars used, if true?

Hmm... not familiar with that one, so I really can't comment.

TCP

Btw.
I got some more stuff on the 18 ships of La Rochelle, Monsieur. A contradicting witness who said there were 18 boats. Je regrette!

Soon come.

Aaargh. I shouldn't have had supper tonight. Now it's all out.

In his statement (1) the Knight Templar Jean de Nemours mentioned 18 ships! This was translated by Marc-Antoine Gautier de l'Ècole de Chartes as: "(...) que des puissants de l'ordre, pressentant le présent désordre se son enfuis et que lui-même s'opposa à frère Gérard de Villers à la tête de cinquante chevaux et qu'il entendit dire qu'il prit la mer avec 18 galées....." etc. etc.

What now?

Maybe both men were right and the order had 3 ships there and the 15 other were rented?



1) to be found in the Register Avignonensis, in the archive of the Vatican.

Why is that, Egi?


18 ships eh, imagine that.---Bill

Thanks for sharing that with the rest of us Roger

I don't know how much you know about "Jean de Chalons" of the "Order of Nemours", Scott, but if you read into it, or him, you will understand why Roger answered it in a PM.---Bill

"On the evening before the raid, Thursday October 12th 1307, I myself saw three carts loaded with straw, which left the Paris Temple shortly before nightfall, also Gerard de Villiers and Hugo de Chalons, at the head of 50 horse[men]. There were chests hidden on the carts, which contained the entire treasure of the Visitator Hugo de Pairaud. They took the road for the coast, where they were to be taken abroad in eighteen of the Order's ships." - Jean de Chalons

I know that it would most likely go right over the heads of most enthusiasts of revisionist Templar "history", but most rational people would comprehend that fact that the journey from Paris to La Rochelle could not have been completed in an evening. It's roughly 250 miles.

It also goes without saying that the above quote, attributed to "Jean de Chalons, a member of the Order from Nemours" (and not "Jean de Chalons of the Order of Nemours") makes no mention of La Rochelle.

It should also be pointed out that Jean de Chalons was a turncoat who betrayed the Order of the Temple, "confirming" and lending details to the most egregious charges leveled at his brethren. His testimony is therefore suspect. Then again, the Lord of Rosslyn and his brother gave sworn testimony against the Templars at inquest, yet to modern revision enthusiasts they were nothing less than the secret Grand Masters of the Order! Accuracy counts for nothing to fantasists, in fact they can't abide it.

So, Bill - tell us more about this "Order of Nemours" - did they build the big Grail Castle in Nova Scotia?

TCP

TCP how easily you shrugged off documentation

an eye witness account too

but that is not enough
now Jean de Chalons is a turncoat a traitor
now we can't believe his eye witness account

the documentation is there of a eye witness account
18 of the ORDERS ships...he didn't say two or five ...he said 18

Of course they swore testimony against the Templars
they saw what happened to the others
this was SURVIVAL ...they played the game

Survive
their brethren were tortured cruelly betrayed by Church and Monarchy

It is easy to call them traitors ....where your sitting
I call them BRILLIANT for realizing Oaths meant nothing to France and the Vatican

[quote="TCP"]
"On the evening before the raid, Thursday October 12th 1307, I myself saw three carts loaded with straw, which left the Paris Temple shortly before nightfall, also Gerard de Villiers and Hugo de Chalons, at the head of 50 horse[men]. There were chests hidden on the carts, which contained the entire treasure of the Visitator Hugo de Pairaud. They took the road for the coast, where they were to be taken abroad in eighteen of the Order's ships." - Jean de Chalons
I know that it would most likely go right over the heads of most enthusiasts of revisionist Templar "history", but most rational people would comprehend that fact that the journey from Paris to La Rochelle could not have been completed in an evening. It's roughly 250 miles.





Nope it doesn't, most of us "enthusiast of revisionist Templar, history" think that the train headed north to intercept some of the ships in one of the english controlled
areas on the north coast. This was for one thing a much shorter distance. These ships, would have had to of left La Rochelle well before the 13th, and of course you do know Tim, that I don't care how many there actually were (ships I mean), none were taken by the French.---Bill

Sorry, Lov, I merely pointed out what it says versus what it doesn't say, which is more than one can expect from certain others who want to manipulate it to other ends. Pity you show such utter disdain for accuracy, but your issue would seem to be with the source itself, not me.



Take it up with Malcolm Barber if you have a problem with it.



Actually, if Jean de Chalons witnessed the three carts leaving Paris on the night of the 12th, he couldn't have seen ANY ships, whether two, five or eighteen unless he traveled with the carts to the coast. His quote does not indicate he did so. Once again, you're manipulating evidence to fit your own fantasy.



Don't confuse forced confessions with deliberate betrayal, Lov. Big difference.



It's clearly easy for you to parse information to suit your own agenda. Sorry it makes you look naive, but that's not my problem.

TCP

It's only 125 miles from Paris to Calais - still more distance that could have been covered on the night of the 12th/13th of October, but I do enjoy watching you twist in the wind trying to recoup. Reminds me of Cinderella's fat stepsisters cutting off their toes to make the glass slipper fit.

TCP

Believe me, I don't do it for the edification of people like Bill and Lov, they're too far gone.

TCP

It would have taken several days on passable roads for heavily laden carts to make their way from Paris to the nearest sea port, traveling through towns where the arrest order would have already been carried out and made public. There is no possible way they would have made it without being detected.

TCP

Temple du Villeneuve, was located to the north and outside the city walls, and although Paris was a walled city it was not under lockdown.
The Knights, supposedly kept the french treasury within their own walled temple. Did Philip ever retreive this, or was it never there? I am asking here, as I do not know.
I am somewhat familer with horses and wagons though. I do know that I have traveled with a packtrain, and have covered nearly 30 miles in a day many times, and this in very difficult mountians. I believe that heavily loaded wagons (what that means I have no idea) could not be caught by horses if they had this much of a head start though (over 12 hours). For one thing how long would it have taken to realize they were gone, again I have no idea. Tim, says this trip would take several days, I think in my own experience and under these conditions (running for your life) a trip of just over one hundred miles on decent roads could be done in less then two days if you had fresh horses along, my own opinion of course.---Bill

The city gates were closed after dark as a matter of course. You're really out of your depth here.



If Philip had retrieved it from the Paris Temple we would not be having this conversation, nor would historians (and others) speculate on its disappearance (or wonder if it was as large as Philip expected).



Twenty to twenty-five miles per day, tops, with stops to refresh the horses and open roads with no one on the lookout for them. The king's men on fast horses dispatched from Paris could have overtaken them in hours, not to mention the fact that the arrest order had gone out to all parts of the country well before it was effected. Roads went through towns and settlements; they would have attracted attention at any point along the route because the sheriffs and bailiffs were already on the lookout for escaped Templars.

TCP

What do you mean out of my depth, the Templars headquarters was out side the walls of Paris, (look it up) and anyway the statement by "de Chalons" says they left before nightfall, which according to my reasoning is at least 12 hours before dawn. If the wagons stopped at dawn it would nearly take 12 hours to catch them, if they knew they were gone or where they had gone. As for wagon teams, you are out of your depth here. You really think that fast moving wagons trailing fresh horses could only make 25 miles per day. On vacation maybe, didn't I just tell you that with loaded horses in very bad conditions ( high mountians with river crossings and rocks) places I'm sure you wouldn't even think a horse could go, I have made nearly 30 miles in a day (I was a professional guide in Wyoming). With that same group of horses and a damn the torpedos (or horses) attitude, we could very easily go over 80 miles in 24 hours. On good roads with a wagon at least as fast.---Bill

How about just ONE flat boat on the Seine in the still of the night? On the river there were no gates. A boat could have carried people right to the coast.

Your observation that Paris, though a walled city, wasn't under "lockdown" was what I was responding to (and yes, you were out of your depth on that point). The Paris Temple was outside the wall, true, but immediately outside within full view of sentries at a major gate. I don't suppose it might have occurred to you that with an arrest order pending, the Temple would have been under close watch before the order was effected.

Wagon teams pulling loads of heavy metals don't move at a fast gallop, your pack horse experience isn't at all comparable.

TCP

What, are we writing a screenplay here or something? Bill keeps changing the parameters to suit his "theory", don't tell me you're starting to do it now as well!

TCP

This idea just popped up. Why not escape without producing any noice like horses' galopp.

Why not leave on the river?

... in a new invented templar submarin? Just like Templiana Jones, you know?

Now all you need is an eyewitness record! I'm sure the Vatican Secret Archives must have something along those lines, since apparently they have just about anything one needs as long as they don't ever have to show it!

TCP

Your observation that Paris, though a walled city, wasn't under "lockdown" was what I was responding to (and yes, you were out of your depth on that point). The Paris Temple was outside the wall, true, but immediately outside within full view of sentries at a major gate. I don't suppose it might have occurred to you that with an arrest order pending, the Temple would have been under close watch before the order was effected.

Wagon teams pulling loads of heavy metals don't move at a fast gallop, your pack horse experience isn't at all comparable.

TCP[/quote]


If you think pack horses can run at a fast gallop, I would like to take you on a pack trip. Travelers on the old Oregon trail somedays made 25 miles in a day (12 hrs) with oxen, how fast can a fat cow run pulling a wagon. This is probably a mute point as the speed would not necessarily have mattered. and as long as were making a movie how about leaving out the back door.---Bill