Arcadia Discussion Zone

I wonder how Delacruce's meeting went with Seeker?
We haven't seen him ever since
another mystery

Where did Delacruce take the Seeker? We miss him.

Perhaps the Great Haywood can tell us.

Are you grooming Seeker to be the next GM of the PoS?

Sorry to bring this thread back up, but I've had a few thoughts about this picture (*0). (I also think that this may be my first post on here)



Here are some things I've noticed:
1) The wood used as the cross/tau looks like it may be either Cedar, Pine or Cypress (I looked through several images of wood types, and put these three down, and then realised that it is said (*1) In the Sacred Tradition of the True Cross of Eastern Christianity the true cross is made up of Cedar, Pine or Cypress as an illusion to a Bible Passage (*2). Cedar was of particular interest to me, as it was used in the construction of King Solomons Temple.
2) It is in complete darkness, other than the light radiating from Jesus body (primarily the halo). Also his skin is rather pale.
3) His hair covers the right eye.
4) The blood drip marks are on his skin, under the cloth covering his bits, and not on the cloth itself. Possibly indicating that when the blood trickled, he was completely naked.
5) The Greek for Nazareth/Nazarean doesn't seem correct on the board. But I don't know Greek well enough to say whats wrong with it, it just seems wrong
6) The "stab" mark in the side appears on the chest, rather than how it is often depicted in many crucifixion scenes which is on the side of the belly.
7) In this picture, as in many other crucifixion depictions the nails are placed in the palm. Whereas analysis in terms of holding weight (and also on the Shroud of Turin) would indicate that the nails were placed through the wrist.(*3)
Other than on his head he has hardly any hair. No armpit hair, no chest hair, no lower abdomen hair, no leg hair. I thought that was a bit odd.
9) The cross/tau may need to be looked at in how it was constructed. When I had my confirmation classes, the crucifixion was spoken about - it was hypothesised that Jesus carried just the horizontal part of the cross, which was then nailed to the vertical part. This cross/tau seems to be one whole object, not clearly nailed together.

Other than that, I think it is an amazing painting - there is something quite hypnotic about it. Diego Rodríguez de Silva y Velázquez was clearly an amazing artist.

Anyone have any thoughts on my notes? (References below)

Cheers,

Daniel

------------
-:References:-
*0: I am using a higher res version available here: http://douglawrence.files.wordpress.com ... z_1632.jpg
*1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Cross ... ristianity
*2: Isaiah 60:13 (NKJV): "The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, The cypress, the pine, and the box tree together, To beautify the place of My sanctuary; And I will make the place of My feet glorious."
*3: http://www.catholicplanet.com/MHT/wounds-Christ.htm

Hi Daniel,
In response to your post -
It looks like pine to me, but I'm certainly no expert.

Given Jesus' state, being pale is no surprise to me.

Agreed, anyone else think this is unusual ? ( need to study more crucifixion paintings to see if its common ).

Just above Jesus' head you can see three of I presume four nail marks that look like they join the two pieces of the cross together.
Just my thoughts on the topic, it would be nice if someone could translate the inscription for us.
Regards
Nic

It is merely the standard titulus crucis - the charge against Jesus (INRI: Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews") written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek as described in John 19:20-21.

Jeff
http://www.thebrotherofjesus.com

Thanks Jeff, just wondered if there was anything unusual about it.
Regards
Nic

Perhaps the reason of the wound appearing higher up is caused from his arms being stretched out and his upper body streched also,if he were standing normaly the wound might appear to be lower.you can try this on yourself and see what ya think,use a mirror and recreate his position,then relax your arms to your side.

Maybe it was placed that way so that it would make a 'face' when the image is doubled?

If you blow up the area of the loin cloth you will see a person meditating in the lotus position. I'm sure that it's being there is all quite by accident.

That's the technique BEFORE you flip the image on itself...

The interesting thing to me about this painting is how Christ is standing on a platform.
I've been looking recently at several other crucifixion paintings, some show him just hanging from the nails in his hands and feet, and there are others that do show a platform he is standing on also. What strikes me as unusual is his posture on this cross. He doesn't appear as hanging on the cross as he does to be merely standing up there. The shifting of his weight to his hip outward shows the figure bearing its weight on the right leg. My understanding was that it was the hanging part of the crucifixion that would bring the person to their end. They would suffocate, unable to inhale or exhale because their lungs were being stretched flat. In this instance, it would surely be painful, but the weight of the body is not being supported from the nails, but from standing on the feet.

Hello Haywood
that is a interesting idea

Welcome
You have your own section

It is a bit of a marriage of opposites
one leg is bent the other straight
Dark background He is the light
His dark hair covers his one eye the other eye is uncovered
One side has blood and is injured the other is clean and no injury
you see the nails in the feet but his hands the nails are covered

There`s always a platform.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XbwixFg8NKc/SSrkS4w_J1I/AAAAAAAAAY4/YJ2Vdbyn9XQ/s1600-h/dietrich.jpg
Cocteau Death Card

Our Lady of the Gate Dawn
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Wilno_matka_boska_ostrobramska.jpg

The large crescent moon, located right beneath Our Lady, is also a votive offering. Its origins are unknown, but it bears an inscription in the Polish language and a date of 1849.[8] The moon incorporates well with the silver cloth, adding additional parallels with the Woman of the Apocalypse, described in the Book of Revelation as a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

the Crescent city is New Orleans
I thought maybe Mr Haywood comment on the Crescent moon Virgin

I would be most grateful if you would provide proof appertaining to the veracity of this assertation.

On closer inspection I`ll say "usually" there is a platform.

Look up "Crucifixion of Jesus" on Google - Images and inspect

the art work. This Gnostic coin compares Christ on the cross to

the Nehushtan serpent of the Exodus on the cross.

I did say "proof". I apologise for not relying on the internet, if that's the basis for your post, you're in big trouble. Any depictions of crucifixion were made hundreds of years after, and suffer artistic licence. For example, the loincloth.
Crucifixion is designed to publicly shame the individual while in the process of dying. A loincloth on Jesus is unlikely, as the person was stripped naked to increase the shame, and if the bible is to be trusted, His clothes were bartered for at the foot of the cross. And the longer it took, the better. Sure, some devices were attached to the upright to support the body, either at the feet or higher up. But not always. It could take days for some to die, depending on their "treatment" before and after crucifixion, whether there was a step to support the body and aid respiration, and whether they were offered and took fluids. It's all a bit complex Lov., dealing with hypovolaemic shock and asphyxia, and can't be dealt with by one throw-away line.

Renne that is an awesome comparison


the crucifixion of the thieves in this picture is interesting

notice their arms are around the beam and they are tied up nailed in the forearm
they are sitting on a sedile
also their ankles are straddled the beam and the nail is driven in the ankle

a very good article on how the crucifixion
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/crucifixion.html
Great Blog on it
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=84945367&blogID=362366570

I find the cross around the neck of the cleric in the left foreground interesting.
Lov., in Eastern Orthodox tradition, Jesus' feet are usually on either side of the upright.
Also, I see no nails. There is a calcaneum in a museum in Jerusalem I believe, with a nail driven through it, which, if genuine, would suggest that in at least some crucifixions, the foot was affixed to the side of the upright.
The artist seems to have really gone out of his way to make distinctions between Jesus and the thieves.
The skull at the foot of the cross suggests the figure on the right may be MM (note the position of the fingers ).
What is a "sedile" Lov.? Nothing I can see points to any support of the body.

Ooops...I've just read your link, perhaps I should have earlier .
That's the calcaneum to which I was referring.
I disagree with the author on a number of his conclusions, but haven't the time now to elaborate.

Yes RS
great catch about the hands on Magdalene
position of the pregnant woman

your right the sedile the wood stake they sit on
can't be seen from afar
I was going by the articles I posted

Sorry Lov., that was very tongue in cheek about MM, thought I might rattle a few chains.
The skull in fact refers to Golgotha, or sometimes when combined with crossbones, the resting place of Adam (with Eve), according to some older traditions.

Doh RS sorry I didn't catch it
but Mary Magdalene is dressed up compared to the nuns

I want to thank Haywood for his point about the platform( I never noticed that)
One wonders why the church depicts the crucifixion in the wrong way from what appears that a seat was used for the
crucified victim

Well, if Christ was crucified with a seat (sedile) on His cross, He would have lived longer and this would have played havoc with the sabbath. You will have noticed a footrest occasionally depicted, which would have served the same purpose. The fact that this might conflict with timing in the Gospel accounts does not seem to worry the artisans.
If in fact Jesus was whipped as much as is written; seat or no seat, footrest or no footrest, He would not have lived very long on the cross anyway. The accounts say His legs were not broken, which also suggests He died on the cross.

What strikes me as important about the painting as an object for meditation is that the person painted has a navel.
The discussion of the actual nature of Jesus has been going on since well before the Council of Nicea and I will refer you to an article on the matter here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
What is the painter saying? He is saying the crucified man was born of woman as are other men.
Arianism, one of the competing beliefs at the time, continued to have a life of its own even after Arius' untimely death (poisoning?). The underlying arian beliefs (NOT to be confused with Aryan matters) continued to be held by....the Visigoths. As they moved through what is now France this 'heresy' moved with them. Sometime in the 700s a bishop in Toulouse was found guilty of the heresy of Arianism but recanted. All the towns and cities where forms of catharism and other similar heresies were recorded beginning in the 11th century all fall wihin the path of the Goths as they moved south. Most recanted (Council of Arras 1025) but who knows if their actual beliefs were changed?
Being a heretic is not a wise career or life choice, even if the heresy is concealed. Did catharism flourish in the south of France because the people who lived there had already known or been exposed to arian thoughts/beliefs before?
From what I've read (French and English sources) the cathars did not believe Jesus to be divine but rather a teacher who came to teach other how to be like him. What else they knew or might have taught is lost to us. Since so much of what we are supposed to know about them comes from the Inquisition Register I think we should discount a great deal of that information. A parfait might not be able to lie but all the others were very good dissemblers if not outright liars. A single seed of truth hidden in all the chaff of half-truths and deceptions.
So the seed of truth in the painting is the one which has been half-hidden again and again by this group and that order: the man who was crucified was a man, born of woman, born as other men are born. So meditate on his humanity and see what questions you next ask yourself. They are probably the same questions you have already been asking and discussing here and elsewhere.