Arcadia Discussion Zone

Don't give me any more ideas, I might just get inspired! Jabbering cockatoo--now what rhymes with that? a jolly jumbatthoggythingumymoo

anyhow I am off to bed, I expect tattifilerious is just getting up--morning campers!

damiana

Damiana, just what zakly was that knight doin' with his 'stave' to that fair damsel? ya see in amareekin there is an expression when things go FUBAR, ya hear the expression ... its broke dick... maybe akin to dicki in somebodys poggy, perhaps?

I dont really see why something in highgate cemetery should be sinister. people have had strange experiences that have frightened them.I think when were afraid we do fear what we dont understand. but i cant see the point in just labelling something as sinister.There are strange forces but its how we interpret thosethings that matters surely.This vampire thing is supposed to be evil but even if itdid suck blood,which i doubt,i think it is far too removed from our realm of existence to be called sinister or evil. While i can accept the idea of an entity with vampire-like characteristics i,think these things are beyond good or evil.

Then you are wearing blinkers, Clarmonde!

There were deaths in and around Highgate Cemetery. Humans and animals came to an unpleasant, exsanguinated end. There were attacks on folk walking past the cemetery gates. Some local residents were afflicted with terrifying visitations whilst they slept. There was a pervading atmosphere of dread which was so chilling that some television journalists and press reporters refused to enter the graveyard at the time of these occurrences. These incidents are what determined the phenomenon at Highgate Cemetery being evil.

The description "vampire" is generally applied to anything that "sucks blood", so why would you doubt that something vampiristic sucks blood?

If you can "accept the idea of an entity with vampire-like characteristics" why is it such a stretch for you to accept a demonic entity with vampire-like characteristics?

A demonic entity with vampire-like characteristics can also be referred to as a vampire.

Caledfwich that is an interestin' take on yer part. My thoughts 'boot things sinister were mostly oriented at the exploitation aspect. That's when outsiders can sit back and write ghastly-ghoulish hit pieces 'boot 'thangs' they themselves never experienced, and even joke 'boot it.

The sinister take with the actual negatives ya mentioned, the what I call, really real fears experienced by folk in that 'hood is tantamount to bein' terrorized, yes? For those who have not experienced a person in need of an exorcism from his demons, these folk have to live with these 'demonic' presences within them.

I wouldn't call them vamps, but I definitely would call them satanic. Once a properly conducted exorcism is performed, to drive these demons out of that afflicted person's persona, they unfortunately live in a state of perpetual fear due to the possibility, in a moment of psychic-moral weakness, these demons will re-possess them again.

I would not call what happened at Highgate way back then as mass hysteria either. This happened on a 1 on 1 basis, yes? I recall that time when even media refused to go in, now that is an element of terror, yes? what did they have to fear in broad daylight and be in a group? They definitely experienced the sinister side.

I also recall the hype of the drugged up party revelers who desecrated these cemeteries then. These folks obviously were not afraid, if they thought it was all just a lark, yes?

claremonde,

Let me ask you a question: what exactly do you consider the Highgate Case to be? Like, what's your interpretation on it, from what you've read of it so far?

And, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of supernatural beliefs do you have, in general?

Tony, don't hold yer breath on that one. If he really sez what's on his mind we may find ourselves needin' an exorcism for the forum hehehe, if ya get my drift

Hahaha, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, jabbs.

He certainly makes a change of pace from the inane warblings of Dave, Babbs, Caledfwlch and co, after all!

For Anthony.What is all this talk about"HE"?I am a SHE! I really dont know what to think of the highgate vampire.Ive described in the sinister goings on in Abney Road cemetery what i think the so called "vampire"could have been_some sort of spirit or supernatural force protecting the land.But its only atheory.What got me interested in highgate,was the fact that i saw some strange figure in a graveyard near where i live,a strange man with wierd eyes who suddenly dissappeared. I wouldnt say i felt a sense of evil, so much as a strong impression that my mum and i should get out of the graveyard .It somehow appeared that the figure didnt want us there, rarther than a feeling that it deliberately wished us harm,hence my feeling it could have been protecting the graveyard or itself. ididnt hang about long after that i can tell you.I have always had a big interest in the occult ever since i was a little kid.so has my mum.For over 15 years ive been casting spells.and had a big interest in wicca.I believe in strange forces,entities,elementals,ghosts and majic.Ive got an open mind.I certainly dont class what i dont understand as evil.I like collecting books on the occult also superhero comics I like anything that is a mystery because there is always the challenge to get to the bottom of it.I find it impossible almost to believe in vampires.

"For Anthony.What is all this talk about"HE"?I am a SHE! I really dont know what to think of the highgate vampire."

FOR CLARMONDE

Don't take too much notice of Anthony, Clarmonde - he always gets things wrong!

I am in full agreement with what you say about 'ghosts' and 'vampires'. Like yourself I think, I do not accept the existence as these have been portrayed in the movies, but I have also come to understand that there may exist several types of unexplained entities (or 'ghosts') and these may not necessarily be 'evil'. I also agree that certain people who go looking for evil, can inevitably find it - indeed some do and it often takes over their personalities. Often they can't see this, and project it onto imaginary beings outside of themselves, such as 'vampires'.

I haven't forgotten I have to get back to you on this, I've just been occupied with a couple of other things lately. When you post (to myself) please do so on my "17 Questions" thread. That will save me scanning other threads as I haven't really got the time at the moment.

So thanks for your interest Clarmonde. And hopefully speak soon,

For the moment,

david (Farrant)

You find it impossible to believe in vampires. Very open-minded, I must say.

Occultists tend to accept the existence of vampires (the blood-sucking kind). Crowley certainly did. And vampires are recorded as being in existence by civilisations of antiquity.

I don't class what I don't understand as evil either, Clarmonde, but I think it is safe to say that something which destroys sentient beings and thrives on the life-blood of others, sometimes causing the extinction of that life, is evil; especially when it is attributed by researchers and major belief systems to a demonic source and ultimately to the Devil.

clarmonde,



I suspected you were a she, clar, but I've seen you referred to several times as "he", so pardon my error!



And that's what boggles me a bit, to be honest, clar. You refer to the being as a "vampire" on one hand, then associate it with protective entities on the other. I don't quite see the connection there.



Do you mean like a warning? Or that this figure simply didn't want you there? Like you were intruding or somesuch.



Protecting it from what, do you think? Vandals? Occultists with stakes and crosses conducting "psychic investigations"? Heh heh.



That's sort of confused me a bit. Didn't you say you didn't believe in ghosts before? Also, I'd advise you to use a lot of caution in terms of casting spells and such. Speaking from a Christian perspective, there.



I hear ya, clar. I've been interested in the supernatural for a lot of my life, too. In fact, at one point, I even wanted to be a parapsychologist before I became interested in vampires.

Personally speaking, I find vampires difficult to believe in, too. As I've mentioned before, I do believe in the supernatural, meself (from a Christian viewpoint), and find the vampire concept very tricky to resolve, theologistically speaking and historically speaking.

The theologians and such who wrote on them, did come up with some very interesting alternative explanations that still incorporated the supernatural, however, like saying they were phantom deceptions by the devil or his minions. It's certainly an interesting field, all up.

Dave,



You get that from mistaking her gender (on reasonable grounds)? At least I can own up to my mistakes, rather than going on your usual cock-n-bull dance.



You can read about Dave's sex-demon view of vampires and how they suck away at your....life force, over on his interviews page, clar.

See, Dave tries to make himself look like the "rational" one in this "feud" by repeatedly (and I do mean repeatedly) saying he doesn't believe in bloodsucking vampires. But that's to hide the fact that he does believe in vampires, just not the type you'd expect.

And when you start breaking down his own claims (for instance, some of the "symptoms" he describes, in terms of vampire attacks, are actually equatable with hypnogogia), then you see just how flawed his arguments are.

Caledfwlch,



That's highly debateable. For instance, the undead, bloodsucking corpse variety that the Bish chases about with stakes, is of much more recent historicity. Have a read of David Keyworth's excellent Troublesome Corpses (2007). You'll see.

ForAnthony.Ionly refer to"it" as a vampire because thats what everyone else calls it.I dont believe it to be a vampire.And yes when the strange figure appeared in the graveyard,i did very much get the feeling that whatever it was it didnt want us there.Protection from what? you ask.well,i dont know.From my many varied and strange experiences,these forces do not like being disturbed.And no i dont believe in ghosts,not the cliched kind anyway.Sometimes i dont know how to take you?When you say these things about David are you trying to deliberately wind him up or what?

Hi clar,



Fair enough, but do keep in mind what that term con notates when you use it. Like, if I used the term "ghost", then you'd get an automatic presumption of what I'm referring to, wouldn't you.



It vaguely sounds like they don't like people trespassing on their "land", if I'm following you correctly, clar. What exactly do you think these things are, if you don't believe in vampires and standard-issue ghosts.



Well, there's a bit of banter that's gone back and forth for years, clar. Most of what I say about him is a response to his criticisms of me, for instance, because I got your gender wrong after you were referred to as a bloke a few times, he took the opportunity to say I usually get things wrong? I mean, seriously, wtf?

It's the nature of the game, clar. When you start questioning/critiquing people about what they say on this Case, they tend to get a tad...nasty. So, naturally, one develops a bit of a humourous mechanism to deal with it. Hope that explains it!

Tony, puh-leeze let me know if this holds true for Oz as well. I have never heard of a haunted Catholic cemetery, they all seem to be public or a protestant sect connected Church cemetery datin' way-way back. Its seems to ba an anglo 'thang' as well. Îs there an extensive literature 'boot spooky hauntings in other countries without a Catholic cemetery tradition?

For Anthony.I take your point.Perhaps its better to refer to it as the highgate"entity".And yes it would seem that they dont like people trespassing on their land. But the point is ,does that necessarily make them evil?As for what they are im still trying to work it out.I have asked David on "17 questions with" whether it could have been something evoked from years ago.No one knows what these things really are .People like the writer Dion Fortune wrote about things called "thought forms" and "elementals .Things that originate in our own minds,then take on alife of their own.Crowley and a friend once claimed(whether or not it was true) to have created a magic"child" that appeared,after it had been evoked by using his own lifeforce and the aid of magical invocations.People have claimed to see doubles and doppelgangers.Once someone did an experiment to see if they could create a "ghost".For weeks a group of people began to talk about the"ghost"as if it was real.then strange things started happenning,inthe house.This entity really didseem to take on life of its own.I think the highgate entity could be anything.I dont think this view is blinkered at all.

FOR CLARMONDE

"And that's what boggles me a bit, to be honest, clar. You refer to the being as a "vampire" on one hand, then associate it with protective entities on the other. I don't quite see the connection there."

What hyporcrisy! from somebody who seems to have forgotten his own admissions that he believes all ghosts (including 'vampires') are really all demons sent by the devil to fool the living that they are really the spirits of departed people. Personally, I never heard so much nonsense in all my life; but we should remember, that it was 'he' that stated this, not myself!

In view of this, Clarmonde I think you are entitled to ask: just what 'connection' he sees!?

A 'vampire' on one hand or a 'protective entity on the other', he raves; seemingly forgetting that there could be little difference (if any) between these and the demonic entities he claims were 'sent by the devil'! The mind truely boggles! And all this from a person who persistently criticises others for using the word 'vampire'!

Take no notice Clarmonde. It is not even worthy of a reply!

David (Farrant)

jabbs,



Hmm, that's a good point. The Catholics have a long tradition of hauntings, though. But as to Catholic cemeteries, specifically...not sure. Oz has a decent serve of allegedly haunted places, though. Here's a few of 'em.

clarmonde,



No, it wouldn't. But I'm just wondering exactly what nature of being these things are, in the context you're giving. For instance, in my case, I believe in two supernatural sources, if you will and both "sides" emanate from one or the other: God or the devil. That's the context of my belief. So, in terms of the supernatural, I view such beings as coming from one or the other. How about you?



Well, see, I believe in the possibility of invocation, meself. Such acts are like a beacon to evil spirits, however. And there's certainly evidence that Highgate was a bit of a breeding ground for occultists. At least some of this was obviously spurred on by the publicity generated off two of its "investigators".



Yes, I've heard of these things. The Theosophists were big on elementals and thought forms or tulpas, come from the Tibeteans.



A "moonchild", yes. Crowley was heavily into the dark arts, if you will. Interestingly, a lot of his writings inspired Wicca. Take the Wiccan Rede, for instance. It's based on one of his credos.



Ah, yes, you're referring to the Philip Aylesford Experiment.

That's an interesting interpretation. The Highgate "entity" as though form. But do you believe that people can manufacture such paranormal phenomena?

Dave,



Yes, Dave, y'see, much like you, I'm supernaturally biased. There's a perspective and context for my supernatural beliefs. Whereas I have a Christian background, you have an occult/Wiccan one. Hence your use of "magic circles" and so on to conduct your "cases".

I referred to my beliefs, after you asked me about them. Criticising me for holding such views is also criticising many Christians who believe the same thing.



And she can do that if she likes. I've already disclosed my views re: supernaturalism.



Yep, so I'm merely discussing clar's views and sharing my own. For some reason, you seem to have a problem with open discussion.

As to persistently criticising "others" for using the term "vampire", I think you mean I've criticised your use of it. And there's a context for that, as well. Here's what it is: you constantly whinge that the media gave you a vampire association, whereas it's obvious you gave it to yourself. And not only that, you continue to exploit it. I'll also mention that you borrowed its usage from your mortal nemesis, to boot. The one who first promoted the vampire angle.

And besides, it's not like you don't believe in vampires, you just don't believe in a certain type. That's why you're so keen to emphasise the bloodsucking corpse variety. Your interviews page, which I linked to for clarmonde's benefit, reveals the truth of the matter.



Well, I'll leave that up to her. I think she's more than capable of making up her own mind and engaging in discussion, and not succumb to rants like yours.

Tony. that link ya gave of haunted spots surprised me, 'cuz I really expected cemeteries to predominate and not public places. That so many folk who were not clerics or performing a rite-ritual is also surprising, considering that the notion of ghosts, spooks, etc usually have a tragic connection to them as demo'd by most of the info there.

The thing that didn't surprise me was the humongous UK list. Does the UK have a patent or trademark on all of these hauntings? I ask 'cuz a majority of folk in the U.S have UK roots. It sort of comes across as UK spooky traditions are followin' all of these UK escapees, hehehe

Funnily enough, cemeteries don't tend to be popular haunts, at least, from my readings.



That's not to say that priests aren't called on to perform blessings and such. Sometimes, even full-blown exorcisms. Different churches take different views of such things, though.



It's quite odd, isn't it, but yes, the UK certainly has an unusually high number of allegedly haunted places. Whether this is a cultural factor or not, I can't say. Could simply be a matter of interpretation, after all, many cultures embrace the spirit world.

Maybe, it's so ingrained in their respective cultures, that they don't make as big a deal about hauntings as our Western culture does. To us, they're more alien, if you will. Hard to explain.

I'm under no pretense that some of these ghostly UK traditions were imprinted on our populace by our European forebears. I could say the same thing for the US (which also partly served as a penal colony before the War of Independence, I might add).

Thanks for defending me David but i am more than a match for anthony!His questions force me to think which is good for me! Well,is David right Anthony,do you believe all appairitions are from the devil?I have told you enough about myself and my beliefs.There is more i could say,but feel its your turn now.Are you really a christian?Are you as radical in your views as caledfwich? I am a bit confused there,and what was the point of mentioning Davids interviews?

Caledfwich ,you do not have to do these things.please do not leave these messages in my inbox.

Clarmonde, I don't know if ya perused the apparitions section of the forum, but ye'll see that the Christian take as I know it is to test all apparitions, 'cuz satan is just as capable of luring a susceptible person. Yet in the Catholic world the chances of fobbing off a satanic apparition as bein' a Marian apparition is small, 'cuz in every diocese where apparitions occur nowadaze, the seer, if they wish to pursue the legitimacy of their apparition are asked to pray for Divine assistance, while they are inside a Church to have that apparition come to them.

Once a seer is in a state of ecstasy as a result of an apparition most Bishoprics be from an exorcism to rid the seer of any demonic influences. If the seer, afterwards sez the apparition disappeared and left no message for the benefit of all mankind, that seer finds out on the spot what was the source of that apparition

For example, 3 girls who experienced Marian apparitions in Garabandal, Spain are bein' put to a different test in that they predicted a series of supernatural events that will happen in Garabandal. If these supernatural events occur, Bishop of Santander will investigate them for their content. There is no automagic acceptance in the Catholic world. It took quite a while before Lourdes or Fatima were accepted.

There are dozens of claimed Marian apparitions, like those in Bayside, Queens on Long island, 'cuz a miracle spring promised to Veronice Luekens did not occur in her lifetime, that's not to say an artesian spring occurring at the spot she pointed out won't happen in the future.. Even if a spring suddenly appears, it will be many years before the Vatican will accept it.

When my dad was in the U.S marines in Haiti in the 1920's there was non-stop voodoo drumming the entire time of the 2 years he was there. The natives claimed zombies appeared, that folk suffer what voodoo shamans did when they stuck a doll with pins. How much is susceptibility, inculturation, mesmerization due to the effect of non-stop drumming, voodoo shamans chants over chicken parts, etc is another conundrum, yes?

Yer vague use of the word apparition tells me, yer straddlin' some sort of a strange fence here. 1 foot in the vamp realm, the other foot in the psychic realm, this sort of fence straddlin' is half-arsed, yes? 'cuz ya got a cheek on either side.

"Caledfwich ,you do not have to do these things.please do not leave these messages in my inbox."

FOR CALEMONDE,

Are you saying that you have also been getting PM's of a harassing nature, Calemonde? That sounds very much to me like what you are saying, or you would not be asking him to stop sending them. Could you please clarify if that is the case?

For the moment,

David (Farrant)