Arcadia Discussion Zone

Perhaps this subject has been discussed before, but if so I could not find the thread while looking through the archives. I am wondering what the forum members believe the "Holy Grail" to represent or maybe even to actually be, "a pregant woman", "a child", "a cup" or even choice d, "does not exist". If it has been brought up before (I mean fully discussed)someone please direct me to the thread.---Bill

I guess ya haven't read Sr Emmerich's Passion Of Christ. She spells it all out quite succinctly. All the nonsense ya come across regarding the grale grail is just that , nonsense, like in the idea of makin' no sense at all. The gnostic krowd have been spinning that one so long folk actually believe all the spun off spins, just look at what monty python did with the grail.

I don't know Wayward
I think the Sangraal

Has great meaning
Take this wood panel at Notre Dame
Is it a man kissing devoutly the hand of Jesus over the golden cup
there is no halo over this Saint

or do you see a woman hands joined in love kissing her master's hand at the table
Is she a sinner or a Saint?
Her hands and his hands joined together over the Gold cup the Holy Grail

My Photos copyrighted to me

Lovuian, that 'hand job' ya mentioned never happened that straight table line up never happened either at the actual Last Supper. Sr Emmerich's description , especially of the chalice is picture perfect, as the sayin' goes.

Like Roge sez, once the gnostics got their graal mojo goin' its open season for heretics. What I don't understand is why hi-ups in the Church didn't set the record straight 1,000 years back and ex-communicate all the heresy spinner then.

I posted to Rogers' now defunct Masters' website the article of a rabbi which illustrates the kabbala + rabbinic krowds' influence over the gnostics, were able to propagate the graal spin in all of its forms. They had jive turkey artists like Leonardo + Michaelangelo in their service. That's why 'T H E Y' as Roscoe describes them, could get that straight line table scenario popularized and insinuate that St John was an effeminite gay .

Its a shame, lovuian ya always jump to these sorts of conclusions without lots of fore-thought. It more than hints to me you want to inert the whole 'fem-shtick' into the RLC enigma and all the tangents related to it, how come?
Just think for a nano-second, Lovuian, the upper room of the Last Supper was a closed off room, plus they ate at night, so how come Leonardo painted his fresco with a mountainside background in broad daylight with open windows, and with a straight table? That spells out a gnostic agenda to me, big time,

It also tells me you and anybody else who touts this approach prefer the gnostic agenda with all of its spin tangents as well.

If I didn't know better, I think this guy has only gnostics like yerself in mind...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6MfFzkc-4E

Well Jabber
you and I are puzzled

and you ask the best question WHY?

why did the church hire them?
why did the church put these in their churches

Homosexuality is a sin in the church to this day

and yet the VATICAN the POPES allowed and PROMOTED
these

Jabber
you ask the Big question WHY?

Why it looks like a Gnostic did those panels and DaVinci's last supper was Gnostic

Lets look at the Sinners and the Saints

All the apostles sitting at the table wear Halos and we see Jesus at the center of the table
Let us look at the official version
It is John sitting next to Jesus

no beard young beautiful passionate no halo
he kisses Jesus's hands tenderly over the Cup which is the Blood of Christ
he is sitting next to Jesus ....is this the Beloved Disciple
John 20:2, the Beloved Disciple

or is this Ganymedes ....Zeus's "cupbearer"

Ok there is a CUP there

here we are at Notre Dame in the church ...what WERE they thinking

Then it could be Mary Magdalene ...the one he kissed often
The Sinner ...the prostitute
the Grail bearer
now where the New Testament states Mary took the vow of celibacy?
No where does it say she was a prostitute either

Who is that disciple drunk with passion sensuously touching Jesus?

Why in the world did the church do this?
That is a heck of a question Jabber

They could burn the heretics without a trial ..... so why did they HIRE them and place their ARTWORK up for all to see

that is quite a question

The World's Need : I read this chapter in the book mentioned on the link page, about 20 years ago, and now it appears on the net ! http://www.sevenmansions.org/worlds_nee ... _need.html

Lovuian, keep in mind what that rabbi I mentioned said. The kabala-gnostics had a hand in every activity to undermine the Church. So, for you to bandy the word Church around without defining which segment, IMHO yer actually mentioning the commissioning agents who requested all of these 'artworks' to be done.

Since the Church is actually the faithful Mass attenders in an edifice called a Church, they have no say as to what the hierarchy puts in them. Did Sauniere take a poll of his parishoners prior to his remodeling of his Church bldg? you know he didn't.

Keep in mind what Disraeli said, there were 20 Jewish Popes up to his time. They were the worst debauchers the Vatican ever had. Alexander 6 is a good example. He went hog wild commissioning all sort of heretical art work all over Italy. For instance a modern day French Cardinal is jewish, Lustiger. This gives the kabala-gnostic krowd a toe hold, yes? Many Bishops over the past 2,000 years were Jews, so its all a matter of which one did what and when.

Ya asked a bass ackward question why did the Church put these artifacts in to these bldgs. The Pastor of a local parish, the Bishop of a Cathedral has total control of what goes in. The actual 'Church' has no say. Ya see Lovuian ya gotta learn how to keep each sphere seperate so that yer message don't get garbled up.

Ya asked...Homosexuality is a sin in the church to this day yet the VATICAN the POPES allowed and PROMOTED
these... again do a thoro' re-think. In what manner do these incidences happen? Its all done by stealth a lil' here a lil' there to test whether the laity will catch on. This takes a corrupt hierarchy, yes? The rabbi I mentioned above already answered that for ya, yes?

This query strikes me as really strange...They could burn the heretics without a trial ..... so why did they HIRE them and place their ARTWORK up for all to see, that is quite a question.

This implementation was done by stealth the same way all the corruption that surfaces within the Vatican gets there. Malachy Martin was a Jesuit who went rogue on the Vatican. He spilled the beans 'boot all the kabala-gnostic heretics who rode into the Vatican with Paul 6. This was at the height of the Vatican 2 Council where all sorts of heretical notions were promulgated. Ratzinger didn't clean the Vatican house, which tells me the kabala-gnostic kosher nostra had his number and dialed it regularly.

If ya notice, neither John Paul 2 nor Ben 16 have rescinded all of the heresy that invaded the Catholic Church as a result of Vatican 2. Now that should be a question of importance, yes? The wave of pedophile priests is no different than the recent wave of pedophile rabbi's, since they all got kick-started by the same kabala-gnostics as the rabbi I mentioned sez they did.

The Vatican will be slowly and steadily be put into economic bankruptcy. keep this in mind QUI BONO.

AH Pilrig, how nice of ya to come up with such a nifty link. Its a shame the guy who penned it didn't read Sr Emmerich first. He would have gotten clear cut answers to 90% of his quests.

yes Lovuian, There can be no doubt that the disciple that Jesus loved was indeed Mary Magdalene. With the collaboration between the Christian Greek Scriptures, the Nag Hammidi and the Codex Berolinensis confirming this relationship. Yes Roger, Most of the Scriptures probably are a lie, not necessarily because they were written with that in mind, but because of the constant editing. This editing which did begin with the original authors and continued on with various transcribers,then, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and many more. Because of this editing we have no idea of what Jesus's message would have actually been. With that in mind (that Mary was this disciple) I believe that da Vinci did put her in his Last Supper, as also did Cocteau. It is very interesting to me that a doorway was cut into da Vinci's work in the only place (hiding the feet) that could almost prove this to be a woman. Why would they have cut such a doorway into one of the most important works of that age? Of course we do know that the church tried its best to end this heresy as many thousands of executed heritics could attest to.---Bill

Pilrig
that was a great article
I never knew about the Black Grail

Yes Jabber
Saint Malachy prediction is on target as well as other visions

So when I say the Church ... Jabber
I mean Rome the Vatican

not the church attendees

Wayward
it really does make one wonder if Mary Magdalene is sitting next to Jesus

Its obvious Wayward hasn't read Sr Emmerich and when compared to what she described, The Vatican has not strayed from the basic tenets laid down by Jesus. I don't have an inkling as to what writings he means. I take it Wayward has swallowed the kabala gnostc rabbinic line, hook-line-sinker.

When ya get folks who shotgun out all this gnostic screed in that fashion ya know where they are coming from. So, Wayward, am I to understand yer agnostic? atheist?. I ask 'cuz without a philosophic stance I have to assume that's the view point you espouse.

Roger is jesting when he mentions Rev Jeff, 'cuz Roger knows Rev Jeff ain't agnostic nor atheist. I will be so bold as to say Roger ain't of these persuasions either. Now, back to the graal.

Yo, Wayward, in case ya haven't been clued in by a rabbi who spelled out how the kabala-gnostc-rabbinic krowd are behind every gnostic insertion ya mentioned... this is one of them ya mention here.

yes Lovuian, There can be no doubt that the disciple that Jesus loved was indeed Mary Magdalene. With the collaboration between the Christian Greek Scriptures, the Nag Hammidi and the Codex Berolinensis? confirming ? this relationship.

St John + only St John has been given his description. That's why when at the foot of the Cross, in order for His fledgling Church to have a firm anchor and foundation to build on, Jesus said...Son (St John) behold thy Mother( Mary). This is time honored Judaic tradition He is quoting. John will now bare the mantel Mary's now deceased Son-Jesus bore, namely that of being the focal point in sustaining the,... now get a firm grip on yerself folks, 'cuz what I am now 'bot to say ain't in the Bible, ...THE NEW WORLD ORDER. It meant that Christianity is not only here to stay, as it has for 2,000 years, but as Jesus promised Peter, a líne of Popes will last 'til the end of time, AND the gates of hell ain't gonna prevail against this Christian-Catholic Church.

With this NWO thought in mind, there are 2 competing ideologies that are on this same level, Judaism, and what God promised Abe thru Ishmael, namely todays' Islam. They all have a Messianic fervor goin' on, yes? For Christendom its the 2nd Coming, for the Judaic, its the 1st Coming according to a deal Ratzinger cut with the rabbinate prior to becoming Pope. Then there is Mahdi.

If there is a modern day graal, its this Messianic expectation which all 3 expect any day now. As ya know there is an outside competitor created by Ben Creme, a jive turkey he calls Maitreya, the darling of the New Age krowd. Then ya gotta factor in another jive turkey who will set up his version of a NWO, he goes by the handle of AntiChrist.

Only Christians and Islam have this AntiC concept, and both religions have Jesus coming out as victor in that encounter.

Now, with the NWO concept bein' the vogue nowadaze, its gonna be interestin' who will pull off all the requisite steps to make it happen on a world wide scale. IMF wants a universal single currency, UN wants a single 1-world govt. Maitreya's New Age backers want a 1-world religion with him in charge. In The Apocalypse St john wrote, AntiChrist is the only entity who will pull all 3 off. So, Wayward, how are ya hedgin' yer bets of this NWO scenario?

Its the same St John who was given the esteemed honor to be a son-replacement for Jesus to Mary. That definitely makes him the most beloved, yes? Ya need to read the NT like a theologian. Ask the Rev Jeff, he is one, he'll tell ya what ya need to do. Its called exegesis.

Jabberguy, As all of the disciples are said to have fled, Matt 26:56, Mark14:30 I posit that Jesus is not talking to John the son of Zebedee, but to Mary Magdalene as she is named to have been there and john is not. Loviaun, I believe you are the one who has the best handle on this subject. Roger, I never meant to agree with you, sorry.---Bill

He played an important part in the third secret of Fatima
and Malachy's prophecy



At Rennes Chateau who carries the graal ?

Jabberguy, You said "Only St. John has been given this description"(meaning I assume the disciple that jesus loved). The problem with that statement is that he never was, at least in the scripture themselves, given that title. Only "Irenaeus" in the second century mentioned this, and it was from information he supposedly received as a young child. In the scripture you mention, John 19, three women are named as being at the cross and no men. Of course the men had all fled, and nowhere does it mention John. "When Jesus therefore saw his mother and the disciple standing by whom he loved", does it make more sense to believe this points to a male disciple who wasn't there or Mary Magdalene who was named as being there and is constantly pointed out in newly discovered texts as the most beloved disciple. I might add that these new texts are proven to be as old as any surviving manuscripts of the Christian Greek Texts. It is evident some transcriber changed a word to make this event relate to a man rather then a woman. Why would anybody do this, in the gospel of Thomas, Simon Peter says to Jesus "let Mary (Magdalene)leave us for women are not worthy of life". Paul, in his first letter to Timothy, says women should learn in silence and not be allowed to teach. Also there is the fact that Jesus called John and his brother James "sons of thunder", hardly a discription of someone who has been considered affeminate, which the church has used for years to show why he would have been more beloved then the other male disciples. Of course that has created many problems of its own that the church has simply ignored.---Bill

Wayward,
Ya got a serious problem here with nomenclature dude. The Apostles were the core group, they in turn had contact with the next wave of followers generically called the Disciples. Then ya have the faithful, at time of Jesus were mainly Jewish converts. The scattered ref don't mean they left town, they moved out of harms way, in many cases means 100 yards or less into a grotto where they can still see what's goin' on. St John was with Jesus' mother the entire time.

Then ya gotta factor in the Roman soldier converts who were at the Crucifixion site. Malchus, the Temple servant who got his ear whacked off and healed was a convert. If scattered to ya means as it does to me, of being an on-looker and not a participant on the scene. Its like watching actors on a stage, and the audience can be seated in many locations.
Bolgotha was a high point, if ya go to the summit of a nearby hilltop ya have a clear view of what's goin' on, ya also have some distance 'tweeen ya and soldiers on Golgotha, yes? Those who got scattered didn't hop on the 1st jet out of country dude.

That's why he was the designated replacement son that Jesus specified from the Cross. Then ya mention yer kabala -gnostc-rabbinic spins like this one...in the gospel of Thomas... If ya notice, the early Church synods knew what was legit and what was spurious. That's why all of those kabala-gnostic writings were trashed. That's why said same kabala -gnostic rabbinic faction has been hellbent for the past 2,000 years to insert all of their heresies. I quoted this rabbi several times on the forum, plus on the Masters forum.

If anything ya may wanna take up that debate with that rabbi and ask him why his fella kabala-gnostic rabbi's persist in their endeavors. If ya wanna see how effective they are, how come holocaust denial is a jailable offense in all non-muslim countries?

BTW, when ya get around to reading Sr Emmerich, she explains how the 'Disciples' as she describes them ate Pasch in a separate room from Jesus and the Apostles, the Holy Women had their own separate room, all this is strictly kosher, goin' by accepted norms of Judaic tradition. When ya read of Mary's presence of Golgotha, ye read of St John's presence as well.

The Bible doesn't go into all of the details of the history of the chalice used at the Last Supper as Sr Emmerich gives. IMHO we have been blessed with her eyewitness descriptions to clarify the nearly 2,000 year attempt on the part of the kabala-gnostic rabbinate of spin to insinuate all of their grail myth-legends into what is actually a very simple, straightforward historical event. So, Wayward ya gotta ask yerself this question...QUI BONO?

What? The apostles came first, then the disciples? Jabber, you know of course that a disciple learns from the teacher and an apostle teaches what they have learned. The church, in all of its wisdom has called Mary Magdalene the apostle to the apostles. Mary Magdalene, also the true author of the 4th gospel of the Christian Greek Scriptures. As you must know the author is alluded to as this same disciple that Jesus loved.To make a point you have the male disciples on another hill. Maybe so, but it wasn't in Jerusalem. If you don,t think Mary is this one disciple, why does this persons name remain unknown, why hasn't it been mentioned in this gospel, why is this person only referred to anonymously in the 5 scriptures of the book of John in which it appears? Why isn't this disciple referred to in any of the other Christian greek Scriptures? Why, even though Mary M. is supposedly the first person to see the risen Christ, she is not mentioned by Paul in his discourse of all who have witnessed him?---Bill

R.C.

hmmm...can someone enlighten me as to this "prostitute" bit...are we or are we not talking here about a "sacred prostitute" to the temple...was the lady in question a zonahor a kedeshah or in fact neither!

That was Gregory the Great in 591 that said "we believe that this woman (Mary Magdalene) whom Luke calls a female sinner, whom John calls Mary (of Bethany) is the same Mary from whom Mark says seven demons were cast out". Of course the current view of the R.C.C. is that the two Mary's are not one in the same. As for her being a prostitute, I do not know, and I also do not know if that makes a difference.---Bill

...course it does , she wasn't a prostitute per se.

This statement of Lovuian caught my eye and made me do a quick re-think...He played an important part in the third secret of Fatima and Malachy's prophecy.

Louviian is mixing metaphors again which ain't new, and in Haiku to boot, 'tween the pix. Pope Ben 16 has zero-zillch-nada to do with the 3rd 'secret' he read prior to bein' selected as Pope. He ain't divulged its contents yet if ya notice. IMHO the 3rd 'Message' of Fatima really ain't so much a secret as it is a warning to the Pope who fails to deliver what was requested at Fatima. IMHO this Pope will be hounded out of the Vatican, 'cuz AntiC is out gunnin' for him, be on the run and escape by walkin' over the bodies of clerics who die defendin' him.

This vision has been given to several Popes over the past 100 years. 2 Popes includin' Ratzinger when He was head of the Inquisition Agency said it deals with events in the Apocalypse.

Now as we get back to the graal and what Wayward alludes to, what he terms Disciples who supplanted the Apostles as the Apostles die off and young converts Disciples of the Apostles now become the Church Fathers.

On this point Sr Emmerich made it all crystal clear how Jesus set up the hierarchy that was to come starting with Peter + the Apostles. Paul is considered a Disciple in this regard, since he is not an original Apostle. The celebration of a Mass and the consecration of a Host and the ceremonies in the sharing of Communion today is almost identical to the manner in which Jesus instituted that Sacrament. Sr Emmerich's step by step description and manner of consecrating a Host by a priest today parallel each other even after 2,000 years. So, the idea there has been massive editing changes to the NT is just another kabala-gnostic-rabbinic heresy ploy.

The intrinsic message of Jesus has been the same for 2,000 years. Magdalen is not essential for a Catholic to be a Catholic, but His Mother Mary is. Jesus had to be borne of a Virgin of the House of David. There is no such person alive today to fulfill that role. Who else would have contrived a latent womb worship type of a graal spin but said same kabala-gnostic rabbinics? QUI BONO, yes?

As for the virgin birth Jabberguy (btw, I don't mean any disrespect in spelling your name that way), it was never alluded to in the Hebrew Scriptures, only in the greek "Septuagint" is it referred to through a mistranslation. Today many believe that Mary Magdalene should have been the one to carry on the line of apostolic succession as she was the first apostle and not Peter. Luke (who recieved his information from Paul)was the only author to write that Peter was the first to see the risen Jesus.---Bill

Roger:

Please take YOUR words out of MY mouth!
I know not for what psychological reason you had to inject my name here, but just for the record I do NOT believe that MM was the beloved disciple. In my mind, of all the theories that have been proposed, James the brother of Jesus best fits the bill.

Further, I am not at all convinced that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married (though it is certainly plausible).

And, lastly, I do NOT believe that "most of the scriptures are probably a lie," in fact, just the opposite. I believe most of the scriptures to be both historically and theologically true.

In the future, please cease and desist from publicly spewing forth complete misinformation on my personal beliefs.

If you are not at all sure what I believe, how DARE you publicly accuse me of believing things I in fact do not at all believe???

And to accuse me of serving Mammon? You are a more reprehensible individual than I ever imagined. If I served Mammon I would certainly not have chosen to go to seminary and enter the fields of ministry and college teaching. I would have probably chosen to work in the financial world where Mammon is indeed served.

I would ask for an apology, but I know that English is not your primary language. And I suspect the word is probably beyond your understanding in any language.

Wer ist der Gral ?

Wagner - Parsifal (Act One)

James could be a contender of the Beloved Disciple

I just will say Jesus kissed her often... that is a sign of Love

I see her carrying the cross and carrying a cup/vase at Rennes Chateau


She is carrying the Holy Grail

Wayward....I'm definitely following you