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 Post subject: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 5:26 pm 
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The Dreamer of the Vine is a historical novel by Liz Greene, published in 1980, about the life of Nostradamus. Indeed, it is subtitled "A Novel About Nostradamus".

It is relevant to the mystery of Rennes-le-Chateau, or perhaps more accurately to the dissemination of the mystery of Rennes-le-Chateau, for two reasons. Firstly, because the novel touches upon so many themes - Merovingians, bloodlines, secret societies - and locations - Stenay, Gisors, Rennes-les-Bains, Bezu - that are relevant to various strands of thought about this affair, accurate or otherwise. And also because Liz Greene is - as we discussed briefly on the Forum a while back - the sister of the late Richard Leigh, and was at one stage apparently involved with Michael Baigent, whose photograph of her adorns the back cover of the book. As we all know, Leigh and Baigent were two of the three co-authors of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, which was written around the same time as Greene's book, and it would not therefore be unreasonable to presume - although it can only be an assumption, as I can find no useful references to the book, save for a mention in the introduction to the revised edition of HBHG - that there was at least some measure of research collaboration between the authors of the different works.

Subsequent to the book being referred to on the Forum, I acquired a copy, which I have recently read. Although there's likely only a very small number here who have read this book, I thought it was worthy of discussion.

As far as the story is concerned, one could do little better than to repeat the blurb from the cover.

Quote:
Nostradamus was destined for the Vine from the hour of his birth in 1503, when his grandfather, astrologer and physician to the court of King Rene of Anjou, cast his natal horoscope and saw the awesome potential of his power. When the dream of the lady and the pool first came to him at the age of five he sensed its sanctity and terror, but years passed and the dream recurred many times before his masters unmasked themselves and he became initiate in a mystery which struck at the spiritual and temporal heart of the Rennaissance, and gave the past and the future a new and terrible meaning.
Set amid the splendour and horror of sixteenth century France, this stunning historical novel brilliantly evokes an age in which an illicit society nourished the legacies of Templar and Cathar and found a cunning irony in the legends of the Grail, in which the game of power was ruthlessly played and the stakes were high, and a trusted astrologer at the court of the Valois could be privy to the secret soul of kings.
Nostradamus, astrologer, alchemist, prophet, physician, healer of the plague, tells how he tried to trick the portent of the dream and failed, and learned with much pain to read the fire. As his masters intended he is a mouthpiece, who speaks of the enigmas of the past, the riddles of his own time and foretells our future, in which the Vine still flourishes.


As for Liz Greene, she is an Anglo-American author and astrologer, and according to the little bit about her in the book:

Quote:
Her characterisations of the true historical persons who appear in The Dreamer of the Vine, including that of Nostradamus, are based upon her own evaluation of their horoscopes, where birth times were available.


A little more on Liz Greene below, from her Wikipedia entry, in which The Dreamer of the Vine merits a brief mention.

Quote:
Liz Greene, (born 4th September 1946 in Englewood, New Jersey, USA) is an American-British astrologer and author. She is the sister of the late author Richard Leigh. Her father was born in London, and her mother in the USA.
Greene has written several astrology books based on Jungian psychology and other forms of depth psychology, contributing to an application of astrology called Psychological astrology. She relocated to the UK, then to Zürich, Switzerland to continue her work. Since 2004 she has again been living in the UK.
In 1985 Greene started co-operating with Alois Treindl, founder of Swiss-based Astrodienst, on development of computer-generated horoscopes, which would present a person with a chart synthesis, simulating Greene's own method of horoscope interpretation during a personal reading. Two years later, in 1987, they presented the Psychological Horoscope Analysis, which was followed by several other interpretations. Greene remains Astrodienst's most popular author.
With Howard Sasportas, Greene co-founded the Centre for Psychological Astrology in London. After Sasportas' death in 1992, astrologer Charles Harvey took over as co-Director, until his death in 2000. Greene continues directing the organisation. In addition, she also directs CPA Press, a publishing company that focuses on specialist astrological works.
Greene has been one of the most persistently popular astrologers of the 20th century. Almost all of her many books remain in print. Greene became quickly famous with the publication, by Weiser, of Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil, in 1976, in which she applied Jungian psychology to revise the image of Saturn as a planet of misfortune, recasting it in a more Jungian image that has continued to be very popular into the twenty-first century.
Greene wrote a single historical novel in 1980, The Dreamer on the Vine, dealing with the themes of Nostradamus and Jesus bloodline. Nonetheless, her remaining books have been on topics applying principles of psychoanalysis to astrology (Psychological astrology). Many are transcripts of her lectures, and many are co-authored, especially by Howard Sasportas.
In addition to giving frequent lectures and directing a certificate programme in psychological astrology, Greene has continued to produce many books, all of which are now published by her own company, the CPA Press. She has also co-authored, with Juliet Sharman-Burke, a deck of tarot cards, the Mythic Tarot.
Her most influential books include Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil, and the philosophically-inclined The Astrology of Fate. The Outer Planets & Their Cycles, The Luminaries (with H. Sasportas) and The Dark of the Soul are other examples of her work.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Greene

I have no belief, or interest, in astrology, but I was intrigued enough by the connection between Greene's novel and the ideas in HBHG, to want to read it, and having done so, I'm glad that I did.

As a piece of writing it's very accomplished. Liz Greene has the gift of conveying a sense of time and place, and of bringing her characters and the scenarios they inhabit to life. She adopts an elegant and ornate style that seems fitting to the period in which the novel is set, and resists the temptation, to which many writers of historical fiction succumb, of transposing modern 20th century sensibilities onto her characters. Therefore the language she employs, and the minutiae of detail in her vivid descriptive passages, have the ring of authenticity about them.

As far as the accuracy or otherwise of the biographical and wider historical detail is concerned, I am not in a position to judge. From what little I know of the life of Nostradamus, the timeline at least appears to be accurate, as well as the recounting of some of the seer's better known associations. But much of the content of the book is, of course, speculative, if not purely imaginary, based in part, as referenced above, on "information" gleaned from horoscopes. This is very much fiction and not history, but the book nevertheless contains much of interest.

I must admit, I was much more taken with the first half of the novel, with its more intimate detail of Nostradamus the person, than I was with the second half, which is more concerned with the political and dynastic machinations of the day, much of the detail of which passed over my head, and which I found rather confusing. Someone with more knowledge of 16th century French history would doubtless be able to take more from it. I have to confess that when I got to the end I wasn't entirely sure what it had all been about.

But given some of the themes and ideas contained in its pages, there is no question in my mind that this book is relevant to issues periodically under discussion on these boards. Even if many of the novel's ideas have subsequently been discredited, they remain of interest, since they have informed a number of publications, from HBHG to The Da Vinci Code.

I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of those who may have read this book. The sort of questions one might consider would include the extent to which it should be read as a companion piece to HBHG, its place in the canon of RLC-related literature, and how effectively its ideas are presented.

Later on, I shall add some further posts, addressing the following themes in the book: Bloodlines, Vines and Viticulture; Plantard and the Prieure de Sion; Black Madonnas; Rennes-les-Bains and Bezu; and Stenay and the Foret de Woevres.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 7:08 pm 
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Bloodlines, Vines and Viticulture

This is obviously the central theme of the book, and several passages were of interest.

According to the character Mathieu Bandello, who was tutor to Lucrezia Gonzaga, and would go on to become Bishop of Agen:

Quote:
The descent of King Rene from the House of Bouillon is generally known ... What is more interesting is the origin of the line itself ... the house of Bouillon descends from King Dagobert II, slaughtered eight centuries ago, the last of the sacred blood of the line of Merovee ... The first kings of France, the Elect, the Long-Haired Ones, the Sorcerer-Kings, the Children of the Sun ... Rene had sworn allegiance to the line, to the sacred blood it bore. But the Bishop of Rome sent an assassin to crown King Dagobert anew, with a lance through the eye. perhaps, like Judas, the assassin did not know how great, how sacriligeous was his crime. He had murdered the Sangraal. But the King's son escaped in secret, and fled to Languedoc, to the mountain's south of Carcassonne, and there perpetuated his lineage ... (pp.130-31)


A familiar tale indeed. Irrespective of the accuracy or non-accuracy of the history, what interests about this passage is that it could have ben taken straight from the pages of HBHG. Not only is the sacred bloodline referred to, and the continuance of the Merovingian line from Dagobert to Godfroi de Bouillon, but the supposed flight of the murdered monarch's son Sigsbert to Rennes-le-Chateau and his marriage to Giselle of the Razes is clearly being alluded to here. Again, the reality of this is not important - what is key here is the transmission of a mythology.

There is much vine imagery throughout the novel. Examples include.

Quote:
... how useful a tool ... was the dynastic marriage ... graft a branch onto the royal vine here, another branch there ... (p.143)


And:

Quote:
For each link in the chain, each intersection point, there are many possible branches, many possible futures. Thus the great vine of the Sangraal has many branches, many possible futures : Lorraine, Guise, Blanchefort, Gisors, Joinville, Chaumont, Courtenay, Montpezat, Gonzaga, charney, Brienne, St. Clair. Break any link in the chain and the future shifts and changes its shape.(p.154)


Also on the genealogical theme:

Quote:
The Abbe wished me to learn more of the Merovingian tree, that I might better appreciate the fruit now ripening on its branches. He showed me genealogical tables of great age, tracing the descent of the house of Lorraine from Clovis, first Christian King of the Franks. In even older parchments, in Latin and Hebrew and Aramaic, the great trunk descended back through Merovee to its roots beneath the earth - the ancient tribe of Benjamin, the First Chosen who has abandoned Israel when Judah rose in its place. The Benjaminites, villified because they placed the Mother above the Father, who migrated to Arcadia and thence to Gaul, settling at last in the virgin forests and fields of Languedoc and Provence. The irony intensified, by this revelation that the house of Lorraine, pillars of Holy Church, secretly claimed descent from the ancient blood of Israel. Here indeed were wandering Jews.(pp.148-49)


Parchments, tribe of Benjamin, Arcadia, sacred feminine ... all familiar themes.

The alleged Merovingian birthmark is also referenced.

Quote:
A birthmark shaped like a small cross, blood-red ... "We are born with it," said Claude de Guise quietly. "It is the sign."(pp.167-68)


This later birthmark reference, however, is part of a strange sequence I find as intriguing as it is mystifying.

Quote:
And I saw, black against the white skin, the birthmark in the shape of a small cross. Sol et luna, sulphur and salt, the Red King and his White Wife ... And Tiresias looked upon the serpents coupling in the grove, and knew that the gods had sent hiom a holy mystery; and he stamped his staff upon the earth three times, and demanded of the Goddess which of them, male or female, knew the greater ecstasy ...(pp.205-206)


:?:


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 9:01 pm 
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Plantard and the Prieure de Sion

Although never mentioned by name, the Prieure de Sion is clearly being referenced in this passage, in which the Cardinal de Lorraine addresses Nostradamus.

Quote:
"It is a very old order, my friend. Older than you imagine. It was old when the Calabrian monks came to the Foret de Merlanvaux, to teach young Godfroi de Bouillon. It was old when King Dagobert was slain beneath the sacred oak. It was old in Jerusalem, when Pilate washed his hands, and old when Pythagorus heard the vast machinery of the universe propogating itself in the black void of space. It was old even in Arcadia, where the exiled tribe of Benjamin sought its new homeland. Its shape changed as the old gods changed their shape, according to the currents of the times. But the knowledge is the primordial knowledge of Man, the ground of his being."(pp.277-78)


The Cardinal goes on to identify three of the alleged PdS Grandmasters in this passage (I've included their alleged PdS status in parentheses) - Rene d'Anjou (9th GM, 1418-80), Sandro Filipepi, or Botticelli (11th GM, 1483-1510) and Charles III Duke of Bourbon (13th GM, 1519-27).

That the GM lists may have been largely discredited is not relevant here. What is relevant is the way in which this is all straight from the HBHG playbook.

Continuing on this theme is this reference at the very end of the novel, to the notion of le roi perdu (the lost king) that is a concept dear to the PdS.

Quote:
The roi perdu waits in silence. His moment will not strike for half a millenium. We missed the opportunity. But there never existed any opportunity - only the imperious necessity to create one. Thus we become men, and not blind beasts who swallow their fate unknowing and unstriving. Now will begin the slow disintegration, and the grey bleak landscape of the kingless future, while the second Fish, the dark Fish, thrashes in the depths of the racial soul's fathomless pool. Conquerers and kingdoms will rise and fall, and at the last a great blight, a monstrous darkness, a plague of the spirit that spills out of the soil of Germany and gushes forth in a black stream to poison the world :the shadow of the whole of Europe, bursting the abcess at last with a merciless and pitifulo cleansing. And the new world after, when the water pours from the Waterbearer's cup of red stone, and the Great Prince arises and gathers the threads of the united European nations in his hands to begin anew, a fresh cycle, a resurrection. The vine grows strong under the earth, and the blasted branches bear secret sap that will rise with the spring.(p.283)


The words, "His moment will not strike for half a millenium" are interesting, since they appear to portent the appearance of this figure during our time. Note also the notion of a united Europe and its connections to PdS thinking.

And yet an earlier passage makes this rather more enigmatic statement about le roi perdu.

Quote:
What does it matter if we fail? The roi perdu does not die. He is a myth, not a man.(p.244)


:?:

Aside from these fairly obvious references to the PdS, the figure of Pierre Plantard is also alluded to, in the character of a wandering minstrel.

Quote:
It was at les Joies du Paradis that I met M. Plantard, as he caslled himself - for he never told me his real name ... Patrons had swarmed to hear the minstrel from Carcassonne. It was said he knew all the old troubadour songs ...(pp.37-38)


When this Minstrel who calls himself Plantard addresses Nostradamus there is a reference to vines and viticulture, as discussed in the previous post.

Quote:
I am called Plantard. I have chosen that name because the growth of love is like the growth of the vine. All things begin with the seed, and develop into the mature plant. But they must be maintained and protected. And sometimes a stronger stock must be grafted on, so that when the grape is picked, and the wine drunk, one sees and tastes in it the soul of the seed, which is the soul of God.(p.40)


Plantard is an ardent shoot indeed. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 9:31 pm 
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A Black Madonna

There is an interesting passage in the book describing a black Madonna.

The narrator (Nostradamus) describes his arrival at "the little monastery of St. Bernard, which marked the pass to the Val d'Aosta and the Milanese" (p.105) (I don't know if this is a real place :?: ), and what he finds in the Prior's private chapel.

Quote:
But when I entered the tiny shrine, preparing to kneel, I stopped, catching my breath in astonishment. Amidst the perfumed smoke from the censer and the frail light of a single taper, the figure of the Virgin glimmered before a small altar. She was black, black as pitch, carved of some ancient wood, and so old, so terribly old, that the very stones of the chapel, already worn from five centuries of devoted hands, seemed fresh and new and hardly born. The wood was cracked and seamed, and her form stood stiff and archaic in the rigidly pleated carved robe, lips curled in a serene and enigmatic smile, eyes blank and mysterious and full of secrets, hair coiling like a swarm of serpents across narrow rigid shoulders and outstretched arms. There was no Child.(pp.106-107)


(btw, see what I mean about Liz Greene being able to craft a nice sentence? That is really good writing, I think.)

When Nostradamus asks what this is, saying that it cannot be the Virgin, and must be, "an ancient thing, from some remote dark past," the Prior refers to her as Notre Dame, makes an allusion to the name of the narrator, and then reaches for the crucifix hanging from his neck, and says:

Quote:
Do not put too much faith in this ... For it is too young.(p.107)


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 10:13 pm 
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Rennes-les-Bains and Bezu

Rennes-le-Chateau is not mentioned in the book, but nearby Rennes-les-Bains is, as is the mountain of Bezu.

As Nostradamus explores the countryside on his mule, he finds it "a disturbing place", watched over by the mountain top ruin of Bezu; a landscape that evokes memories of Templars and Cathars, "whose blood had fertilised the earth".

Quote:
One could divine the ghosts flicking one's back even in the cold sunlight of the afternoon.(p.62)


Bezu, viewed from Rennes-le-Chateau:
Image

The author certainly understands and is able to articulate what some of us might describe as the ambiguous vibe of that area - beauty blended with foreboding.

Quote:
Something lay hidden in this place which I could not comprehend. I felt a little shiver pass with a sinuous finger along my flesh.(p.62)


Much is made of the legend of Bezu and the Templar ghosts, and sure enough Nostradamus and the Bishop of Carcassonne make a 13th October (c. 1525) nocturnal visit. In a vivid passage the two scramble up there in the darkness, and the Bishop tells Nostradamus of the legend, and about the bell that is supposed to chime at midnight, heralding the appearance of the spectral knights. The bell duly chimes, "so faintly it might have been the wind", but Nostradamus never gets to see any ghosts, as he collapses to the ground in a state of fear, and later suffers a terrible dream.

Bezu, as approached from the cemetery at le Bezu:
Image

Interestingly, however, and for all the detail accorded to this particular area, no mention is made of nearby Alet-les-Bains, which is said, or at least speculated - in HBHG among other places - to have been one of Nostradamus' places of residence. I wonder why that might be. It's a picturesque spot, with much potential, one would have thought, for writerly attention. Perhaps Liz Greene was less convinced by this part of the Nostradamus biography than the authors of HBHG. :?


Last edited by richard.webster on 15 Jan 2010 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 10:33 pm 
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The book of Liz Greene solves a problem raised by Plantard in his first list of Great Masters of PoS.

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Ferdinand de Gonzague died in Bruxelles on 1557.
In order to solve this incoherence, Liz Greene wrote in her novel that in 1557 Ferdinand de Gonzague died and the new Great Master was the Archbishop Charles de Lorraine (1524-1574).
Who asked her to solve this incoherence? IMHO, the novel was used to correct Plantard's manufactured mythology, and this was a specific request by Baigent/Leigh/Lincoln. Such a precision cannot be explained otherwise. In 1996 edition of HBHG the three authors added a note: "Maybe Liz Greene's intuition was correct?"

Here, an Italian analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 11:07 pm 
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Stenay and the Foret de Woevres

Stenay, in eastern France, was an important Merovingian town, close to where Dagobert II was assassinated. As such it is important to PdS mythology.

In The Dreamer of the Vine, Nostradamus visits the town, but before he gets there, he must pass through the Foret de Woevres.

Quote:
I did not welcome the thought of spending the night in this forest, for it was a place redolent of legends known even in Provence ... It was called the Foret de Woevres, the Wood of the Serpent. Strange tales were woven about it from the most ancient of pasts. It was said to be a sacred wood where once the Goddess Rosemertha had been worshipped beneath the great oaks.(p.118)


A couple of links to Rosemerta, the goddess of fertility and abundance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosmerta

http://www.celtnet.org.uk/gods_r/rosmerta.html

Stone carving of Rosemertha - with Mercury, with whom she was often partnered in Gaul - in Autun, Burgundy.
Image

The relief Nostradamus feels upon entering Stenay, however, is replaced with a sense of unease when he enters the neglected and decaying church of Saint Dagobert. "There was a desolate feeling about the empty and ruined place," as he puts it.

He meets a priest there, who tells him about the town having an ancient temple to Saturn, and having been called Satanicum.

Quote:
"Beneath this church lie the ruins of an ancient chapel to Saturn, Rex Mundi," said the Cure of Stenay. "It is a sacred site."(p.122)


Anyway, all in all, a number of intriguing elements to that book.

I'm grateful to Liz Greene for having written such an interesting novel, and for all the quotes above. I'm only sorry that my lack of understanding in several areas meant that I wasn't able to fully appreciate some of it's ideas. I did find much that grabbed my attention, however. I do think it's a very nicely written book, that is really quite evocative in places, and I'm sorry that this is the only novel the author has published. She certainly has a gift for writing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 11:19 pm 
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Mariano Tomatis wrote:
The book of Liz Greene solves a problem raised by Plantard in his first list of Great Masters of PoS.

Image

Ferdinand de Gonzague died in Bruxelles on 1557.
In order to solve this incoherence, Liz Greene wrote in her novel that in 1557 Ferdinand de Gonzague died and the new Great Master was the Archbishop Charles de Lorraine (1524-1574).
Who asked her to solve this incoherence? IMHO, the novel was used to correct Plantard's manufactured mythology, and this was a specific request by Baigent/Leigh/Lincoln. Such a precision cannot be explained otherwise. In 1996 edition of HBHG the three authors added a note: "Maybe Liz Greene's intuition was correct?"


Thank you, Mariano. I had recalled that Liz Greene's novel was mentioned in passing in the 1996 intro to HBHG (in fact, I should have checked the reference, because in so doing I learned that she did indeed draw upon the HBHG research, which is one of the things I speculated about at the beginning), but I had forgotten about that note, which I have just read. It is Note 1, on pages 467-69 in the paperback edition.

I see that she is also mentioned in the acknowledgments.

Very interesting thought, above.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2010 11:27 pm 
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There were three lists in the dossier secrets, 2 were previous lists only one had no precedence.

I'll look up the reference, and do you have any speculative thoughts as to the inclusion of the lists and their meaning?

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2010 4:52 am 
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richard.webster wrote:

Interestingly, however, and for all the detail accorded to this particular area, no mention is made of nearby Alet-les-Bains, which is said, or at least speculated - in HBHG among other places - to have been one of Nostradamus' places of residence. I wonder why that might be. It's a picturesque spot, with much potential, one would have thought, for writerly attention. Perhaps Liz Greene was less convinced by this part of the Nostradamus biography that the authors of HBHG. :?


I seem to recollect us talking about this on here some time in the past and there does appear to have been some connection. I think Sheila might know something about the link between Nostradamus and Alet les Bains.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2010 5:20 am 
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Mariano Tomatis wrote:
The book of Liz Greene solves a problem raised by Plantard in his first list of Great Masters of PoS.

Image

Ferdinand de Gonzague died in Bruxelles on 1557.
In order to solve this incoherence, Liz Greene wrote in her novel that in 1557 Ferdinand de Gonzague died and the new Great Master was the Archbishop Charles de Lorraine (1524-1574).
Who asked her to solve this incoherence? IMHO, the novel was used to correct Plantard's manufactured mythology, and this was a specific request by Baigent/Leigh/Lincoln. Such a precision cannot be explained otherwise. In 1996 edition of HBHG the three authors added a note: "Maybe Liz Greene's intuition was correct?"

Here, an Italian analysis.



Don't forget that Plantard later revised the start of the Prieure de Sion to 17th January 1681. What gets me is the obvious amount of research that went in to make up this hoax. Ferdinand de Gonzague was succeeded by Louis de Nevers, who is in fact Louis de Gonzague, Duke de Nevers. He married Henriette of Cleves, the second cousin of Anne of Cleves. Their descendants included Francis I, who has been mentioned a few times on here.

If you follow the activities of Louis de Gonzague you arrive at the Chateau de Joyeuse in Couiza.

But also we have a note from Beringer Sauniere himself who says that he and villagers paraded the statue of Our Lady of Lourdes through the streets of Rennes le Chateau on the quote - "Feast day of Louis de Gonzague" - unquote. The witness to Our Lady of Lourdes (Bernadette Soubirous) is buried in Nevers as is Henriette de Nevers, the wife of Louis de Nevers. An old map of Nevers shows an area called NOIS.

Somebody has done an awful lot of research for some reason that didn't appear to make any money whatsoever.

Unless of course it's Baigent and Leigh

Plantard letter 4th April 1989

Plantard letter 6th July 1989

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2010 6:17 am 
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Much is made of the legend of Bezu and the Templar ghosts, and sure enough Nostradamus and the Bishop of Carcassonne make a 13th October (c. 1525) nocturnal visit). In a vivid passage the two scramble up there in the darkness, and the Bishop tells Nostradamus of the legend, and about the bell that is supposed to chime at midnight, heralding the appearance of the spectral knights. The bell duly chimes, "so faintly it might have been the wind", but Nostradamus never gets to see any ghosts, as he collapses to the ground in a state of fear, and later suffers a terrible dream.


Could Nostradamus be right ...there is something scary there....very powerful air spirits

Awesome connection Richard
I agree Nostradamus fits well into the mystery

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 6:12 am 
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richard.webster wrote:
A Black Madonna

There is an interesting passage in the book describing a black Madonna.

The narrator (Nostradamus) describes his arrival at "the little monastery of St. Bernard, which marked the pass to the Val d'Aosta and the Milanese" (p.105) (I don't know if this is a real place :?: ), and what he finds in the Prior's private chapel.

Quote:
But when I entered the tiny shrine, preparing to kneel, I stopped, catching my breath in astonishment. Amidst the perfumed smoke from the censer and the frail light of a single taper, the figure of the Virgin glimmered before a small altar. She was black, black as pitch, carved of some ancient wood, and so old, so terribly old, that the very stones of the chapel, already worn from five centuries of devoted hands, seemed fresh and new and hardly born. The wood was cracked and seamed, and her form stood stiff and archaic in the rigidly pleated carved robe, lips curled in a serene and enigmatic smile, eyes blank and mysterious and full of secrets, hair coiling like a swarm of serpents across narrow rigid shoulders and outstretched arms. There was no Child.(pp.106-107)


(btw, see what I mean about Liz Greene being able to craft a nice sentence? That is really good writing, I think.)

When Nostradamus asks what this is, saying that it cannot be the Virgin, and must be, "an ancient thing, from some remote dark past," the Prior refers to her as Notre Dame, makes an allusion to the name of the narrator, and then reaches for the crucifix hanging from his neck, and says:

Quote:
Do not put too much faith in this ... For it is too young.(p.107)


I've said it many times, and I'll continue repeating it over and over again until I'm blue in the face: the Black Madonna is not the Virgin Mary, she's Andere Mari. Plantard and Cherisey knew this, I'd even venture to guess that Sauniere knew this. Peasants in the Pyrenees and all the way east to Lombardy and northwards up into Switzerland have known this for millenia. You can follow her to the Baltics. She IS an ancient thing from a dark, remote past; even the Christian folklore bears this out.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 6:25 am 
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roscoe wrote:
Don't forget that Plantard later revised the start of the Prieure de Sion to 17th January 1681. What gets me is the obvious amount of research that went in to make up this hoax. Ferdinand de Gonzague was succeeded by Louis de Nevers, who is in fact Louis de Gonzague, Duke de Nevers. He married Henriette of Cleves, the second cousin of Anne of Cleves. Their descendants included Francis I, who has been mentioned a few times on here.

If you follow the activities of Louis de Gonzague you arrive at the Chateau de Joyeuse in Couiza.

But also we have a note from Beringer Sauniere himself who says that he and villagers paraded the statue of Our Lady of Lourdes through the streets of Rennes le Chateau on the quote - "Feast day of Louis de Gonzague" - unquote. The witness to Our Lady of Lourdes (Bernadette Soubirous) is buried in Nevers as is Henriette de Nevers, the wife of Louis de Nevers. An old map of Nevers shows an area called NOIS.

Somebody has done an awful lot of research for some reason that didn't appear to make any money whatsoever.

Unless of course it's Baigent and Leigh

Plantard letter 4th April 1989

Plantard letter 6th July 1989


Saint Louis de Gonzague and Louis de Gonzague, Duke of Nevers where not the same person. The former wasn't born until 1568 and thus could not have succeeded his kinsman as anything in 1557. I doubt very much that the villagers of RLC kept the feast day of the soi-disant Duke of Nevers.

BTW, Roscoe, is it possible that the old map you're looking at actually says "NIVERNOIS"? Because if it doesn't, it should.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 6:59 am 
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TCP wrote:
roscoe wrote:
Don't forget that Plantard later revised the start of the Prieure de Sion to 17th January 1681. What gets me is the obvious amount of research that went in to make up this hoax. Ferdinand de Gonzague was succeeded by Louis de Nevers, who is in fact Louis de Gonzague, Duke de Nevers. He married Henriette of Cleves, the second cousin of Anne of Cleves. Their descendants included Francis I, who has been mentioned a few times on here.

If you follow the activities of Louis de Gonzague you arrive at the Chateau de Joyeuse in Couiza.

But also we have a note from Beringer Sauniere himself who says that he and villagers paraded the statue of Our Lady of Lourdes through the streets of Rennes le Chateau on the quote - "Feast day of Louis de Gonzague" - unquote. The witness to Our Lady of Lourdes (Bernadette Soubirous) is buried in Nevers as is Henriette de Nevers, the wife of Louis de Nevers. An old map of Nevers shows an area called NOIS.

Somebody has done an awful lot of research for some reason that didn't appear to make any money whatsoever.

Unless of course it's Baigent and Leigh

Plantard letter 4th April 1989

Plantard letter 6th July 1989


Saint Louis de Gonzague and Louis de Gonzague, Duke of Nevers where not the same person. The former wasn't born until 1568 and thus could not have succeeded his kinsman as anything in 1557. I doubt very much that the villagers of RLC kept the feast day of the soi-disant Duke of Nevers.

TCP


Well it may not be the feast day of Saint Louis de Gonzague either. According to the Catholic list of Saints there is no Saint Louis de Gonzague:

Complete list for 21st June:
June 21. Martyr Julian of Tarsus in Cilicia. Hieromartyr Terence (Tertius), Bishop of Iconium. St. Julius, presbyter of Novara, and his brother St. Julian the deacon. New-Martyr Nicetas of Nisyros near Rhodes. Martyrs Archil II and Luarsab II, kings of Georgia. Martyr Aphrodisius in Cilicia. (Greek Calendar: Martyr Julian of Libya. Hieromartyr Anthony, Anastasius who was raised from the dead, Celsius and his mother Vasilissa, 20 prison guards and 7 brothers, martyred with St. Julian.)

Nope! Ain't there.

So to deviate from your oh it might be this or it might be that, here's a fact for you:

Quote:
In the year one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one, on the twenty-first day of June, on the feast day of Louis de Gonzague. To commemorate the First Communion of 24 children of the parish and to bring to a close the spiritual exercises of the retreat that had been preached by the Reverend Father Farrafiot[?], diocesan missionary, of the Family of St. Vincent de Paul, residing at Notre Dame de Marseilles, the statue of Our Lady of Lourdes, after being carried through the principal streets of the parish by 4 men on a magnificent litter accompanied in procession by the entire parish and an enormous crowd that had gathered from miles around, was duly installed and blessed right there in the square, thanks to the same missionary zeal that eight days before had evangelized the inhabitants of Rennes-le-Château. This beautiful family occasion ended with an enthusiastic address by the Venerable Father, with three cheers in honour of the Virgin Mary, and with the blessing of the Holy Sacrament. At the end of this ceremony all the children of the First Communion, led by the Curé of the parish and accompanied by our dear diocesan missionary, entered the garden of the Virgin and there, beneath the Virgin Mary's gaze, at the feet of the Holy Mother, as witness of their various promises and oaths, they allowed the Photographer to record, along with their beautiful costumes, their faces in which are reflected such innocence and happiness.

Present at this solemn occasion were: the curés of Couiza and Espéraza, Monsieur l’abbé Fournier.

B. Saunière, priest
Curé of the Parish of Rennes-le-Château


Names of the people who had the happiness and honour to carry the statue:
Messieurs Antoine Captier; Zacharie Peihou [?]; Jean Maury; Feuillet


Done at Rennes-le-Château on the day, month and year stated above

B. Saunière, priest


21st June is the beginning of the Summer Solstice. In other words they paraded a goddess around the village on the summer solstice. It lasts for three days and ends on Saint John the Baptists Birthday. Ω

“In the Aude, the peasants rather believe in the malignant spirit, the fairies and the underground geniuses than with the Virgin and the Angels”

Gaston Jourdanne: Contribution to the Folklore of the Aude, 1900


But he did give communion to the 24 Children of St Vincent. Eight days before this (as mentioned by Sauniere and highlighted) we have the Festival of Epona, the Horse Goddess. A Celtic Goddess worshipped in Rome itself. Here she is pictured below on the left:

Image

She was particularly a goddess of fertility, as shown by her attributes of a patera, cornucopia and ears of grain. She is mentioned in Giambattista Della Porta's edition of Magia naturalis (1589). Giambattista Della Porta is a friend of Giambattista Marino, the man who took Poussin to Rome.

TCP wrote:
BTW, Roscoe, is it possible that the old map you're looking at actually says "NIVERNOIS"? Because if it doesn't, it should.


Image

I suppose it does. Thankyou for your negative contribution. So why is the witness of Our Lady of Lourdes, Bernadette Soubirous buried in Nevers?

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Last edited by roscoe on 28 Jan 2010 8:51 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 8:24 am 
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roscoe wrote:
Well it may not be the feast day of Saint Louis de Gonzague either. According to the Catholic list of Saints there is no Saint Louis de Gonzague:

Complete list for 21st June:
June 21. Martyr Julian of Tarsus in Cilicia. Hieromartyr Terence (Tertius), Bishop of Iconium. St. Julius, presbyter of Novara, and his brother St. Julian the deacon. New-Martyr Nicetas of Nisyros near Rhodes. Martyrs Archil II and Luarsab II, kings of Georgia. Martyr Aphrodisius in Cilicia. (Greek Calendar: Martyr Julian of Libya. Hieromartyr Anthony, Anastasius who was raised from the dead, Celsius and his mother Vasilissa, 20 prison guards and 7 brothers, martyred with St. Julian.)

Nope! Ain't there.


There's a handy Internet research tool you might be interested in called Google - works great:

http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-aloysius-gonzaga/

SAINT ALOYSIUS GONZAGA

Also known as

Aluigi Gonzaga
Luigi Gonzaga

(HIS NAME IN FRENCH WOULD BE WRITTEN "LOUIS" - TCP) :wink:

Memorial

21 June

Profile

Italian noble who grew up in a castle, the son of a compulsive gambler. Cousin of Saint Rudolph Acquaviva. Trained from age four as a soldier and courtier. He suffered from kidney disease, which he considered a blessing as it left him bed-ridden with time for prayer. While still a boy himself, he taught catechism to poor boys. He received his First Communion from Saint Charles Borromeo. At age 18, Aloysius signed away his legal claim to his family’s lands and title to his brother, and became a Jesuit novice. Spiritual student of Saint Robert Bellarmine. Tended plague victims in Rome, Italy in the outbreak of 1591 during which he caught the disease that killed him at age 23.

roscoe wrote:
So to deviate from your oh it might be this or it might be that, here's a fact for you:

Quote:
In the year one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one, on the twenty-first day of June, on the feast day of Louis de Gonzague. To commemorate the First Communion of 24 children of the parish and to bring to a close the spiritual exercises of the retreat that had been preached by the Reverend Father Farrafiot[?], diocesan missionary, of the Family of St. Vincent de Paul, residing at Notre Dame de Marseilles, the statue of Our Lady of Lourdes, after being carried through the principal streets of the parish by 4 men on a magnificent litter accompanied in procession by the entire parish and an enormous crowd that had gathered from miles around, was duly installed and blessed right there in the square, thanks to the same missionary zeal that eight days before had evangelized the inhabitants of Rennes-le-Château. This beautiful family occasion ended with an enthusiastic address by the Venerable Father, with three cheers in honour of the Virgin Mary, and with the blessing of the Holy Sacrament. At the end of this ceremony all the children of the First Communion, led by the Curé of the parish and accompanied by our dear diocesan missionary, entered the garden of the Virgin and there, beneath the Virgin Mary's gaze, at the feet of the Holy Mother, as witness of their various promises and oaths, they allowed the Photographer to record, along with their beautiful costumes, their faces in which are reflected such innocence and happiness.

Present at this solemn occasion were: the curés of Couiza and Espéraza, Monsieur l’abbé Fournier.

B. Saunière, priest
Curé of the Parish of Rennes-le-Château


I rest my case.

roscoe wrote:
TCP wrote:
BTW, Roscoe, is it possible that the old map you're looking at actually says "NIVERNOIS"? Because if it doesn't, it should.


It doesn't. Sorry you weren't around to alter the map :wink:

Image

But I am familiar with the [i]if-the-evidence-doesn't-fit-then-alter-it
concept in others.


OK, THANKS! :lol: :lol: :lol:

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 9:02 am 
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TCP wrote:
roscoe wrote:
Well it may not be the feast day of Saint Louis de Gonzague either. According to the Catholic list of Saints there is no Saint Louis de Gonzague:

Complete list for 21st June:
June 21. Martyr Julian of Tarsus in Cilicia. Hieromartyr Terence (Tertius), Bishop of Iconium. St. Julius, presbyter of Novara, and his brother St. Julian the deacon. New-Martyr Nicetas of Nisyros near Rhodes. Martyrs Archil II and Luarsab II, kings of Georgia. Martyr Aphrodisius in Cilicia. (Greek Calendar: Martyr Julian of Libya. Hieromartyr Anthony, Anastasius who was raised from the dead, Celsius and his mother Vasilissa, 20 prison guards and 7 brothers, martyred with St. Julian.)

Nope! Ain't there.


There's a handy Internet research tool you might be interested in called Google - works great:

http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-aloysius-gonzaga/

SAINT ALOYSIUS GONZAGA

Also known as

Aluigi Gonzaga
Luigi Gonzaga

(HIS NAME IN FRENCH WOULD BE WRITTEN "LOUIS" - TCP) :wink:

Memorial

21 June

Profile

Italian noble who grew up in a castle, the son of a compulsive gambler. Cousin of Saint Rudolph Acquaviva. Trained from age four as a soldier and courtier. He suffered from kidney disease, which he considered a blessing as it left him bed-ridden with time for prayer. While still a boy himself, he taught catechism to poor boys. He received his First Communion from Saint Charles Borromeo. At age 18, Aloysius signed away his legal claim to his family’s lands and title to his brother, and became a Jesuit novice. Spiritual student of Saint Robert Bellarmine. Tended plague victims in Rome, Italy in the outbreak of 1591 during which he caught the disease that killed him at age 23.

roscoe wrote:
So to deviate from your oh it might be this or it might be that, here's a fact for you:

Quote:
In the year one thousand eight hundred and ninety-one, on the twenty-first day of June, on the feast day of Louis de Gonzague. To commemorate the First Communion of 24 children of the parish and to bring to a close the spiritual exercises of the retreat that had been preached by the Reverend Father Farrafiot[?], diocesan missionary, of the Family of St. Vincent de Paul, residing at Notre Dame de Marseilles, the statue of Our Lady of Lourdes, after being carried through the principal streets of the parish by 4 men on a magnificent litter accompanied in procession by the entire parish and an enormous crowd that had gathered from miles around, was duly installed and blessed right there in the square, thanks to the same missionary zeal that eight days before had evangelized the inhabitants of Rennes-le-Château. This beautiful family occasion ended with an enthusiastic address by the Venerable Father, with three cheers in honour of the Virgin Mary, and with the blessing of the Holy Sacrament. At the end of this ceremony all the children of the First Communion, led by the Curé of the parish and accompanied by our dear diocesan missionary, entered the garden of the Virgin and there, beneath the Virgin Mary's gaze, at the feet of the Holy Mother, as witness of their various promises and oaths, they allowed the Photographer to record, along with their beautiful costumes, their faces in which are reflected such innocence and happiness.

Present at this solemn occasion were: the curés of Couiza and Espéraza, Monsieur l’abbé Fournier.

B. Saunière, priest
Curé of the Parish of Rennes-le-Château


I rest my case.


Complete list for 21st June:
[i]June 21. Martyr Julian of Tarsus in Cilicia. Hieromartyr Terence (Tertius), Bishop of Iconium. St. Julius, presbyter of Novara, and his brother St. Julian the deacon. New-Martyr Nicetas of Nisyros near Rhodes. Martyrs Archil II and Luarsab II, kings of Georgia. Martyr Aphrodisius in Cilicia. (Greek Calendar: Martyr Julian of Libya. Hieromartyr Anthony, Anastasius who was raised from the dead, Celsius and his mother Vasilissa, 20 prison guards and 7 brothers, martyred with St. Julian.)


Here's that wonderful search tool again for 21st June.

No sign of SAINT ALOYSIUS GONZAGA. perhaps you should check your source.

However 21st June is the Feast day of St Lazarus. He who rose from the dead whose stained glass window is supposedly the source of the Blue Apples in Sauniere's Church.

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Last edited by roscoe on 28 Jan 2010 9:18 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 9:08 am 
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TCP wrote:
I've said it many times, and I'll continue repeating it over and over again until I'm blue in the face: the Black Madonna is not the Virgin Mary, she's Andere Mari. Plantard and Cherisey knew this, I'd even venture to guess that Sauniere knew this. Peasants in the Pyrenees and all the way east to Lombardy and northwards up into Switzerland have known this for millenia. You can follow her to the Baltics. She IS an ancient thing from a dark, remote past; even the Christian folklore bears this out.


And I think the fact that it is made so clear in Liz Greene's text that this is not the Virgin Mary - it couldn't be more clear than this, for example ...

Quote:
Do not put too much faith in this ... For it is too young.(p.107)


... is interesting, inasmuch as it's not particularly relevant to the story, the passage is something of an aside, really, but it is yet another ingredient in the whole, if you will, and part of the transmission of a certain view of religion and the history of religion. Yes, it is a book about Nostradamus - on one level - but it seems to be so much more than that, as if the seer's purpose in the narrative is to be a recipient on the reader's behalf of certain items of information, as if he's a convenient vehicle upon which to hang a particular philosophy, and subvert conventional opinions about faith and history.

There's certainly more to that book than meets the eye.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 10:01 am 
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Mister TCP -

I hope your face is not that blue yet than these of the Na'vi folks from outter space.
But ... for people who are new to Andy's market place or are not so familiar with your sources about Andere Mari: Would you please be so kind and name them again? A few linx will do.
Thanx.
May your face stay pink forever. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 3:39 pm 
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roscoe wrote:
Complete list for 21st June:
June 21. Martyr Julian of Tarsus in Cilicia. Hieromartyr Terence (Tertius), Bishop of Iconium. St. Julius, presbyter of Novara, and his brother St. Julian the deacon. New-Martyr Nicetas of Nisyros near Rhodes. Martyrs Archil II and Luarsab II, kings of Georgia. Martyr Aphrodisius in Cilicia. (Greek Calendar: Martyr Julian of Libya. Hieromartyr Anthony, Anastasius who was raised from the dead, Celsius and his mother Vasilissa, 20 prison guards and 7 brothers, martyred with St. Julian.)

Here's that wonderful search tool again for 21st June.

No sign of SAINT ALOYSIUS GONZAGA. perhaps you should check your source.

However 21st June is the Feast day of St Lazarus. He who rose from the dead whose stained glass window is supposedly the source of the Blue Apples in Sauniere's Church.


Article from the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01331c.htm

St. Aloysius Gonzaga

Born in the castle of Castiglione, 9 March, 1568; died 21 June, 1591. At eight he was placed in the court of Francesco de'Medici in Florence, where he remained for two years, going then to Mantua. At Brescia, when he was twelve, he came under the spiritual guidance of St. Charles Borromeo, and from him received First Communion. In 1581 he went with his father to Spain, and he and his brother were made pages of James, the son of Philip II. While there he formed the resolution of becoming a Jesuit, though he first thought of joining the Discalced Carmelites. He returned to Italy in 1584 after the death of the Infanta, and after much difficulty in securing his father's consent, renounced his heritage in favour of his brother, 2 November, 1585, a proceeding which required the approval of the emperor, as Castiglione was a fief of the empire. He presented himself to Father Claudius Acquaviva, who was then General of the Society, 25 November, 1585. Before the end of his novitiate, he passed a brilliant public act in philosophy, having made his philosophical and also his mathematical studies before his entrance. He had in fact distinguished himself, when in Spain, by a public examination not only in philosophy, but also in theology, at the University of Alcalá. He made his vows 25 November, 1587. Immediately after, he began his theological studies. Among his professors were Fathers Vasquez and Azor. In 1591 when in his fourth year of theology a famine and pestilence broke out in Italy. Though in delicate health, he devoted himself to the care of the sick, but on March 3 he fell ill and died 21 June, 1591. He was beatified by Gregory XV in 1621 and canonized by Benedict XIII in 1726. His remains are in the church of St. Ignazio in Rome in a magnificent urn of lapis lazuli wreathed with festoons of silver. The altar has for its centerpiece a large marble relief of the Saint by Le Gros.

Article from Catholic Online: Saints and Angels: http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=15

St. Aloysius Gonzaga
Priest
Feastday: June 21
1591

St. Aloysius was born in Castiglione, Italy. The first words St. Aloysius spoke were the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary. He was destined for the military by his father (who was in service to Philip II), but by the age of 9 Aloysius had decided on a religious life, and made a vow of perpetual virginity. To safeguard himself from possible temptation, he would keep his eyes persistently downcast in the presence of women. St. Charles Borromeo gave him his first Holy Communion. A kidney disease prevented St. Aloysius from a full social life for a while, so he spent his time in prayer and reading the lives of the saints. Although he was appointed a page in Spain, St. Aloysius kept up his many devotions and austerities, and was quite resolved to become a Jesuit. His family eventually moved back to Italy, where he taught catechism to the poor. When he was 18, he joined the Jesuits, after finally breaking down his father, who had refused his entrance into the order. He served in a hospital during the plague of 1587 in Milan, and died from it at the age of 23, after receiving the last rites from St. Robert Bellarmine. The last word he spoke was the Holy Name of Jesus. St. Robert wrote the Life of St. Aloysius.

Article from domesticchurch.com: http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19980501/SAINTS/STALOY.HTM

Saint Aloysius Gonganza
Feast Day: June 21
Patron: Catholic youth, Jesuit students, teenage children, teenagers, young people
Symbol: crucifix, lily

Encyclopedia Britannica Online: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/17000/Saint-Aloysius-Gonzaga

Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
born March 9, 1568, Castiglione delle Stiviere, Republic of Venice [Italy]
died June 21, 1591, Rome; canonized 1726; feast day June 21

Article from the website of Gonzaga University: http://www.gonzaga.edu/About/Mission/Mission-Statement/Who-Aloysius.asp

Who Is Aloysius Gonzaga?

One of the most frequently asked questions about Gonzaga University is the origin of the name. Who was St. Aloysius Gonzaga? He is an Italian Jesuit saint of the 16th century. In 1887 when Father Joseph Cataldo, an Italian born Jesuit, founded Gonzaga College in Spokane, Washington, it seemed fitting to name the new school after his fellow Jesuit and fellow Italian, St. Aloysius Gonzaga.

Aloysius is the Latin form of Gonzaga's given name, Luigi. In English, the equivalent form would be Louis. The Gonzaga name is well known in Italy. Aloysius Gonzaga was born at Castiglione near Mantua, Italy, in 1568 to a celebrated family of wealth and prestige. As the first born son of his father, Ferrante, and his mother, Marta, he was in line to inherit his father's title of Marquis. He grew up amid the violence and brutality of the Renaissance Italy and witnessed the murder of two of his brothers. In 1576, Aloysius' parents sent him to attend the court of the Grand Duke of Tuscany, Francesco de'Medici, in Florence. Later, accompanied by his parents, he traveled to Spain to join the court of Philip II in Madrid.

In Spain, Aloysius decided he wanted to join the newly founded religious order, The Society of Jesus. His father resisted his decision and there followed a struggle of wills that continued after his return to Castiglione in 1584. But Aloysius eventually prevailed. Renouncing his right to the title of Marquis and to the vast wealth he was destined to inherit, he entered the Society of Jesus in Rome on November 25, 1585. During his early studies in Rome, he would regularly go out into the streets of the city to care for victims of the plague. He himself contracted the disease as a result of his efforts for the suffering and died on June 21, 1591, at the age of twenty-three, six years short of his ordination as a Jesuit priest.

Do I need to go on? Because I can do this all day.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 7:02 pm 
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Eginolf wrote:
Mister TCP -

I hope your face is not that blue yet than these of the Na'vi folks from outter space.
But ... for people who are new to Andy's market place or are not so familiar with your sources about Andere Mari: Would you please be so kind and name them again? A few linx will do.
Thanx.
May your face stay pink forever. :wink:


Thanks, Eginolf!

Wikipedia is always good for a general intro (as long as one keep expectations within reason):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_(goddess)

A Basque mythology page (the ancestors of the Basques were far more widespread geographically than their descendants today, before being pushed into the mountains by the Celts and Iberians):

http://www.buber.net/Basque/Folklore/aunamendi.mythology.php

Here's a pretty comprehensive academic survey:

http://www.evertype.com/misc/basque-jies/basque-jies.html

"Absolute Astronomy":

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Mari_(goddess)

A bit about her rites from "XORGUIÑAS y CELESTINAS":

http://www.suppressedhistories.net/secrethistory/xorguinas.html

An article on "Witchvox":

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usva&c=words&id=12178

From Maria Gimbutas' "The Living Goddesses":

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xs26aFrT0YAC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=mari+basque+goddess&source=bl&ots=naZB2WeQ3A&sig=-ft3pxtsAMR0MDp8iRxeFlfCIpE&hl=en&ei=gt5hS67lPMy8lAfsm5zhCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAkQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=mari%20basque%20goddess&f=false

That should be enough to get you started. This material centers primarily on the Basque (or "proto-Basque") iteration; later we can look at survival of traditions in the folklore of the "Moras (or Mouras) Encantadas" in the Celtic and Celtiberian strains who are anything but "Moorish"...

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 7:05 pm 
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richard.webster wrote:
And I think the fact that it is made so clear in Liz Greene's text that this is not the Virgin Mary - it couldn't be more clear than this, for example ...

Quote:
Do not put too much faith in this ... For it is too young.(p.107)


... is interesting, inasmuch as it's not particularly relevant to the story, the passage is something of an aside, really, but it is yet another ingredient in the whole, if you will, and part of the transmission of a certain view of religion and the history of religion. Yes, it is a book about Nostradamus - on one level - but it seems to be so much more than that, as if the seer's purpose in the narrative is to be a recipient on the reader's behalf of certain items of information, as if he's a convenient vehicle upon which to hang a particular philosophy, and subvert conventional opinions about faith and history.

There's certainly more to that book than meets the eye.


One couldn't ask for a more succinct assessment, Richard. :wink:

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 8:37 pm 
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High King
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TCP - thanx for your comprehensive reply. I was actually thinking that you were talking about ANBOTOKO MARI, I just couldn't guess why you called her ANDERE MARI. Did you want to tell that it was "another" Mary ("andere" in German = "another one").
And then:
Quote:
This material centers primarily on the Basque (or "proto-Basque") iteration; later we can look at survival of traditions in the folklore of the "Moras (or Mouras) Encantadas" in the Celtic and Celtiberian strains who are anything but "Moorish"...

I am curious. It is already later by now. :D
The Celts had a dark goddess named Borbeth, is she somehow related?
f.i. in Klobenstein (Austria) there's a Borbeth that was transformed into a Vierge Noir.


BTW.
glad to see you're back. You always bring some fresh air into these dry discussions. Châpeau!


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 10:00 pm 
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Eginolf wrote:
TCP - thanx for your comprehensive reply. I was actually thinking that you were talking about ANBOTOKO MARI, I just couldn't guess why you called her ANDERE MARI. Did you want to tell that it was "another" Mary ("andere" in German = "another one").


LOL! I didn't even think of that, and I took three years of German in school! Good catch! No, actually, "Andere" in Basque means "Lady" or "Queen" - but I like the "Other Mary" meaning too, that's very cool. "Anbotoko Mari" means Mari of Anboto, which designates a sacred mountain in Spain.

Quote:
And then:
Quote:
This material centers primarily on the Basque (or "proto-Basque") iteration; later we can look at survival of traditions in the folklore of the "Moras (or Mouras) Encantadas" in the Celtic and Celtiberian strains who are anything but "Moorish"...

I am curious. It is already later by now. :D
The Celts had a dark goddess named Borbeth, is she somehow related?
f.i. in Klobenstein (Austria) there's a Borbeth that was transformed into a Vierge Noir.


Very possible, as obviously Mari is a localized goddess and yet Black Madonnas can be found throughout Europe. Borbeth was part of a triple-goddess archetype, yes? Like the Tremaié or Three Matres (later "Three Maries") of the Chateau des Baux, I'm assuming?


Quote:
BTW.
glad to see you're back. You always bring some fresh air into these dry discussions. Châpeau!


Thanks!

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: The Dreamer of the Vine
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2010 10:33 pm 
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Emperor
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Quote:
But he did give communion to the 24 Children of St Vincent. Eight days before this (as mentioned by Sauniere and highlighted) we have the Festival of Epona, the Horse Goddess. A Celtic Goddess worshipped in Rome itself. Here she is pictured below on the left:

Image

She was particularly a goddess of fertility, as shown by her attributes of a patera, cornucopia and ears of grain. She is mentioned in Giambattista Della Porta's edition of Magia naturalis (1589). Giambattista Della Porta is a friend of Giambattista Marino, the man who took Poussin to Rome.





Roscoe and Richard
I have seen this Rosemerta

Goddess of love, romance, fertility, matrimony, abundance, prosperity, enrichment, beauty, flowers, empowerment

OMG I have a picture of her :mrgreen:

Image
this picture is copyrighted to me

Guys she is in New Orleans too
Home of the Acadians

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