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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2010 8:31 pm 
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You make it sound like its only real to those who prove themselves worthy by dint of their commitment to the cause.
Do pictures of it count as proof ?

Are we to infer that you, Roger, along with Tingra and Sheila have proved yourselves worthy and are, thus, in the privileged position of having seen it for yourselves ?

In what sense can it be compared to the Shroud if there is no public attestation of its survival or indeed photos in the public domain?

Surely that does not include pictures of representations of it in stone or coin or manuscript?

Does this 'Referee' control this evidence?

TD


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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2010 8:43 pm 
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I've never seen it....maybe i could...... if i put my nose to the grindstone...but i'm cautious about meddling in a powerful history that i don't fully understand yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2010 9:05 pm 
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Okay, so the obvious question is........ How do you KNOW it still exists ?


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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2010 10:29 pm 
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Well,
That kinda killed the conversation! :roll:
I'm not trying to be obtuse, well; no more so than usual, and it wasn't me that mentioned the Crista. It certainly wasn't me that likened it to a globally known and endlessly photographed relic.
But, to play devils advocate for a second, 'for the man on the Clapham Omnibus' there seems to be a fundamental issue here. With the Shroud we can move beyond the fact of existence to exploring meaning, something which we cannot do with the Crista.

I'm sure we all accept the rights of those in the know to decline, for whatever reason, to discuss it further .........but............and its a J.LO sized one............you cannot have it both ways.
This 'nudge-nudge, wink-wink' stuff looks like an artificial contrivance.
If you dont wanna talk about it then don't slip it casually into the conversation.

Yes, apologies for the mildly splenetic tone this evening but here, on the top deck of the number 24, its frustrating.

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 Post subject: Weaving
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2010 11:47 pm 
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A specialist in weaving analyzed the Shroud and determined it to be ancient

from the way the seperate lengths of cloth are woven together rather than

being sewn.

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 Post subject: Re: Weaving
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2010 12:23 am 
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Renne wrote:
A specialist in weaving analyzed the Shroud and determined it to be ancient

from the way the seperate lengths of cloth are woven together rather than

being sewn.



We're gonna need to be a little more specific than 'ancient'.
:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2010 7:45 am 
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Quote:
We can all speculate on each other's psychology and as to why we believe what we do about the Shroud. For me, I won't accept any theory that doesn't deal with the carbon date. Why? Because I've investigated all the objections to the carbon dating and I find they don't hold scrutiny. Of course, I'm also probably one of the few people here that has actually worked with a lab (Florida Museum of Natural History) that does carbon dating. Believers who claim there was some kind of collusion to produce a false date ignore the fact that samples were sent to three labs separately. Each lab had no contact or interaction with the others and did their tests independently. Those three independent tests all came back with the same result.


Yes we can, said Bob the Builder. I can speculate and will thank-you very much.

Quote:
Incidentally, in both this book and its prequel, they claim it was "Giovanni", their PoS informant, who said they were on the right trail. I once asked Clive Prince if "Giovanni" was Gino Sandri; the answer was noncommital (but not really a denial, either).


There is a story that "Giovanni" wasn't interested in Lynn Picknett but who she was dating. That Gio was too late but wanted to make sure the hypotheses was out there in wider public forum in book form.

So I'm speculating why is it necessary for that group to made sure the shroud was tied to that period or that person.

Quote:
"Who would believe that so small a space could contain the image of

all the universe? O mighty process! What talent can avail to

penetrate a nature such as these? What tongue will it be that can

unfold so great a wonder? Verily, none! This it is that guides the

human discourse to the considering of divine things. Here the

figures, here the colors, here all the images of every part of the

universe are contracted to a point. O what a point is so marvelous!"



--Leonardo Da Vinci's comments on the "Camera Obscura" (Dark Room),

or what we today call the pinhole camera.



from The Amateur Photographer's Handbook

by Aaron Sussman

Thomas Y. Crowell Company: 1962





http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/ne ... 89849.html

First historically Da Vinci designs plans for a

World's first photo: an unknown Da Vinci? - Page 1: Camera obscura
Home » News » World's first photo: an unknown Da Vinci? - Page 1: Camera obscura
Monday 28th September 2009

SPECIAL REPORT by AP news editor Chris Cheesman

Image




Quote:
Roger Davies used sophisticated computer graphics to back his claim that this famous 1514 engraving by Albrecht Dürer is a photograph of a drawing by Leonardo da Vinci. The graphical representation shown here has been simplified for use online

Image, courtesy Roger Davies



A photography enthusiast is battling to re-write the history books after a three-year project left him convinced that a famous 16th-century engraving is the 'world's first photograph'.

Welshman Roger Davies also claims to have uncovered a secret code in the artwork, leading him to conclude that the 1514 engraving is a photograph of a previously un-attributed drawing by Leonardo da Vinci.

Davies came up with his intriguing theory after scrutinising Melancholia, a famous engraving by renowned German Renaissance artist Albrecht Dürer.

The former contractor for the Atomic Weapons Establishment - whose job gave him experience in optics - claims that the 9in high Dürer masterpiece was no such thing. Rather a photograph of a much larger Da Vinci drawing - perhaps eight feet tall - exposed and then fixed onto a 'light-sensitive' copper plate, placed inside a camera obscura.

'It's basically a photograph of a drawing,' says the retired electrical engineer, adding that the exposure time may have taken several days.

He claims Dürer then used the plate to run off hundreds of prints in his name more than three centuries before Fox Talbot and Louis Daguerre first experimented with the permanent fixing of a photographic image using chemicals.

By magnifying a high-resolution digital image of the engraving, the 66-year-old says he can show that lines on the print are so close together - a 'sixth of a millimeter' in one area - that it would have been physically impossible to hand engrave them with such accuracy and consistency, even for the master technician that Dürer was.

Davies believes that Da Vinci created his artwork before 1507 and then gave Dürer the photographic plate.

'Da Vinci' code

Davies says he first suspected a Da Vinci connection after spotting that the cherub in the Melancholia image has similar facial features to a figure depicted in a Da Vinci sketch held at the Musée des Beaux-Arts in Caen, France.

Also, key to it being the work of Da Vinci, he asserts, is the Italian artist's renowned level of knowledge of mathematics and geometry, in addition to what some believe was Da Vinci's practice of planting secret messages in his work.

'It's not a random drawing. It's a mathematically geometrical structure,' says Davies who believes Da Vinci also used a camera obscura to help him sketch the human figures in the original large-scale artwork.

Davies suggests that the layout was a deliberate attempt to create a type of astronomical calculator, linked to the cycles of the sun and the moon relative to the earth.

He believes Da Vinci implanted a hidden code in the work connected to the prediction of future geophysical events such as earthquakes.

The number '532' is fundamental to this concept - a figure reached by multiplying the 28-year cycle of the sun to the 19-year cycle of the moon.

The fifth-century astronomer Victorius of Aquitaine used this figure to predict the recurrence of a given phase of the moon on the same day of the week and month.

Davies says he found that when superimposing computer-generated lines over Melancholia, they radiate from two distinct areas of the image corresponding to lunar and solar cycles.

And the lines - he insists - align themselves with various key points in the image, such as the thread marks in the rope (top right in the picture) and the jagged edges of the knife (bottom).

Furthermore, these 'precise radial graduations' (not visible on the artwork itself) totalled 532, or multiples of that figure, leading Davies to suggest that the artist created the piece to conform with a predetermined 'symmetrical' geometric pattern.

Davies argues that Da Vinci used a thin pencil to draw these lines as an 'underlay' to the drawing which was then photographed using a camera obscura.


http://www.precinemahistory.net/1400.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2010 8:36 am 
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WWII this is one of the reasons the Japanese people turned against the Government because when the Bombs dropped the Emperor had received intelligence that the western forces were going to try to steal the three treasures to gain a psychological advantage and protected the treasures ignoring the suffering of his people.

Anyway this is a posting to show Ancient treasure and links between Modern Science.


Quote:
Imperial Regalia of Japan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2006)
This article contains Japanese text. Without proper rendering support, you may see question marks, boxes, or other symbols instead of kanji and kana.
The Imperial Regalia of Japan (三種の神器, Sanshu no Jingi / mikusa no kandakara?), also known as the Three Sacred Treasures of Japan, consist of the sword Kusanagi (草薙劍), the mirror Yata no kagami (八咫鏡), and the jewel Yasakani no magatama (八尺瓊曲玉). The regalia represent the three primary virtues: valor (the sword), wisdom (the mirror), and benevolence (the jewel).

Due to the legendary status of these items, their locations are not confirmed, but it is commonly thought that the sword is located at Atsuta Shrine in Nagoya, the jewel is located at Kokyo (the Imperial Palace) in Tokyo, and the mirror is located in the Grand Shrine of Ise in Mie prefecture.[1] At least one of these may not be the originals.

[edit] Tradition
Since 690, the presentation of these items to the Emperor by the priests at the shrine are a central part of the imperial enthronement ceremony. This ceremony is not public, and these items are by tradition only seen by the emperor and certain priests. Because of this, no known photographs or drawings exist.

Two of the three treasures (the jewel and sword, including the emperor's and the state seal) were last seen during the accession and enthronement of Emperor Akihito in 1989 and 1993, but were shrouded in packages.

According to legend, these artifacts were brought by Ninigi-no-Mikoto, legendary ancestor of the Japanese imperial line, when his grandmother, the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, sent him to pacify Japan. The origin of the items remain a question today. Traditionally, they were a symbol of the emperor's divinity as a descendant of Amaterasu, from which he derived legitimacy as paramount ruler of Japan.

According to legend, when Amaterasu hid in a cave from her brother Susanoo, thus plunging the world in darkness, the goddess Ame-no-Uzume hung the mirror and jewels outside the cave and lured her out of the cave, at which point she saw her own reflection and was startled enough that the gods could pull her out of the cave. Susanoo later presented in apology to Amaterasu the sword, Kusanagi, which he had obtained from the body of an eight-headed serpent, Orochi.

The possession by the Southern Dynasty of the imperial regalia during the Northern and Southern dynasties period in the 14th century has led modern chroniclers to define it as the legitimate dynasty for purposes of reign names and genealogy.

The importance of the imperial regalia to Japan is evident also from the declarations made by Emperor Showa to Koichi Kido on 25 and 31 July 1945 at the end of the World War II, when he ordered the keeper of the privy seal to protect them "at all costs".[2]

[edit] See also
Japanese mythology
Shinto
Crown Jewels
Order of the Sacred Treasure


Quote:
Makyoh


The Makyoh (Japanese for "magic mirror") is an ancient art that can be traced back to the Chinese Han Dynasty (206 BC — 24 AD). Makyoh were made of copper alloy, usually with an intricate pattern carved or cast on the back and the front polished to a mirror finish. The front looks like a smooth reflecting surface, but when sunlight or other bright light is reflected onto a wall a glowing pattern emerges. Usually the image seen would be the same as the image on the back of the mirror, often an image of the Buddha or other focus for meditation. The art later moved to Japan (especially Kyoto), and after missionaries brought Christianity into Japan in the mid 1500s many mirrors were made with secret images of the Holy Cross or of Christ. Because Christianity was punished at the time, many Christians wore such magic mirror as a secret sign of their faith.

The "magic" of a makyoh comes from fact that, while the mirror's surface appears smooth, the pattern to be projected is held latent within the metal in differential hardening after annealing, and the surface when polished is differentially abraded. This causes parallel light beams (such as from the sun or a distant light source) to reflect at slightly different angles and form the desired image.

A similar principle is used in a technique known as makyoh topography, which is used to determine the flatness of manufactured materials such as semiconductor wafers.[/quote]

http://www.docbug.com/Pictures/Makyoh/index.html

Image
"The mirror looks normal though slightly convex"
Image
"The back of the mirror, often this would be the same as the projection although not in this case."
Image

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0268-1242/7/1A/017
Makyoh topography:comparison with X-ray topography
Quote:
K Kugimiya
Central Res. Labs., Matsushita Elect. Ind. Co. Ltd, Osaka, JapanAbstract. Makyoh (magic mirror) technology has been applied to the observation of slip lines and wafer warpage of Si wafers. Although Makyoh topography gives a bright field image and is not suitable for observing microflaws of micron-sized width and length, it has been shown that the method is capable of revealing slip lines as sensitively as X-ray topography. This is due to the ability of Makyoh topography to observe the slight waviness associated with microflaws in a defocused background image of macroflaws. This contradictory micro/macro observation capability was found to be due to different focal lengths of micro- and macroflaws (when the former is sharp, the latter is vague, and vice versa) and to the formation of composite images with neighbouring bright and dark areas which emphasise the image features vividly and impressively. Makyoh topography has also proven to be the most effective method to determine the optimum conditions for growing epitaxial wafers without slip lines and to check even a very slight drift from the optimum.

Print publication: Issue 1A (January 1992)



http://jjap.ipap.jp/link?JJAP/35/L258/
Japanese Journal of applied physics
Quote:
Makyoh Topography: Curvature Measurements and Implications for the Image Formation
János Szabó, Ferenc Riesz and Béla Szentpáli

Research Institute for Technical Physics of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, P. O. Box 76, H-1325 Budapest, Hungary
(Received December 22, 1995; accepted for publication January 12, 1996)

A new method is developed for the measurement of the radii of curvature R of mirror-like semiconductor wafers using the magic-mirror (Makyoh) method. A flat mirror is placed beneath the sample, thus a second, “contour” image of the sample is formed beside the sample image itself. From the size deviation of the two images that results from the curvature of the sample, R can be calculated. Experimental results obtained with mirrors with known curvature show good agreement with the calculations. Implications for the general image formation mechanism are discussed as well.

KEYWORDS: makyoh images, curvature, surface flatness, optical models
URL: http://jjap.ipap.jp/link?JJAP/35/L258/
DOI: 10.1143/JJAP.35.L258

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2010 8:57 am 
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http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/03/2 ... turin.html

Quote:
Shroud of Turin's Authenticity Probed Anew
Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News


Authentic or Not?

View a slideshow of the Shroud's history. March 21, 2008 -- The Shroud of Turin, the 14- by 4-foot linen believed by some to have been wrapped around Jesus after the crucifixion, might not be a fake after all, according to new research.

The director of one of three laboratories that dismissed the shroud as a medieval artifact 20 years ago has called for the science community to re-investigate the linen's authenticity.

"With the radiocarbon measurements and with all of the other evidence which we have about the shroud, there does seem to be a conflict in the interpretation of the different evidence," said Christopher Ramsey, director of England's Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, which carried out radiocarbon dating tests on the cloth in 1988.

Venerated by many Catholics as proof that Christ was resurrected from the grave, the yellowing cloth is kept rolled up in a silver casket in Turin's Cathedral.

Shroud Science: Chapter One

Scientific interest in the linen, which has survived several blazes since it was discovered, began in 1898, when it was photographed by lawyer Secondo Pia. The negatives revealed the image of a bearded man with pierced wrists and feet and a bloodstained head.

In 1988, three reputable laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Tucson carried out radiocarbon tests on the cloth and declared it a brilliant, medieval fake produced between 1260 and 1390.

Nevertheless, the piece of linen made of fine, tightly woven herringbone twill has remained an unquestioned object of veneration. When it last went on public display in 2000, more than three million people saw it. Many more visitors are expected for next public display in 2025.

Shroud scholars, known as sindonologists, have always argued that no medieval forger could either have produced such an accurate fake or anticipated the invention of photography.
Yet, despite arguments and claims of revisionist scholars, all theories on how the radiocarbon tests could have been inaccurate have been rejected by the scientific community.

A Question of Contamination

In this latest chapter, Ramsey's call to revisit the subject follows tests taken by Ramsey, himself, to investigate a contamination hypothesis by John Jackson, a U.S. physicist who conducted the first major investigation of the shroud in 1978.


Quote:
Shroud of Turin's Authenticity Probed Anew


Jackson, the director of the Turin Shroud Center in Colorado, has long claimed that a 1532 fire which damaged the cloth may have affected procedures used to date the shroud.

Based on information about C14 dating that wasn't available 20 years ago, Jackson's theory suggests that only a two percent contamination could skew results by 1,500 years.

The details of this collaboration are reported in a documentary to be aired by the British Broadcasting Company on Saturday.

Meanwhile, a new study, published in the book "La Sindone, una Sfida alla Scienza Moderna" ("The Shroud, a Challenge to Modern Science"), by Giulio Fanti, further supports Ramsey's call for revisiting the carbon-14 tests.

"The study, carried out by the researcher Gerardo Ballabio of the Shroud Science group, does add a new twist. It looks at a less known aspect of the C14 tests: how the linen sample was divided into sub-samples by the three laboratories who performed the radiocarbon tests in 1988," Fanti, a professor at Padua University in Italy, told Discovery News.

"Basically, it is a re-analysis of the available data which takes into consideration the spatial positions of the sub-samples on the shroud. It shows that the 1988 statistical results are not correct," Fanti said.

The Shroud in Puzzle Pieces

A previous study by Bryan Walsh, director of the Shroud of Turin Center in Virginia, suggested that differing levels of cabon-14 were present when examining the horizontal positions of sub-samples from the shroud. But the question of whether a gradient also existed in the vertical direction remained open.

It is known that the samples distributed to each lab in 1988 were first cut from a corner of the shroud. Basically, the sample consisted of an 81- by 16-mm rectangle weighing 300 mg. The rectangle had a missing corner as a result of a previous sample extraction.

"This piece of linen was split into two parts. One was divided into three samples to be given to the laboratories, and another was retained in case further material was necessary. Since one of the three samples was significantly smaller than the others, a thin section from the retained part was added to the smaller sub-sample," Ballabio said.

The samples were sealed, documented and forwarded to the labs along with control samples for testing and evaluation. The laboratories in Oxford and Zurich were each given one of the single-piece samples, while the laboratory in Arizona was given the two-part sample.

What happened later is a subject of controversy, according to Ballabio.

"Each lab subdivided the sample in various pieces, making it a puzzle to reconstruct their original position on the shroud," Ballabio said.

In order to reconstruct how the samples were cut, their physical positions on the shroud, and the lab measurements for each sub-sample, Ballabio collected information from many key people involved in the testing operation.

"I ended up with 256 possible combinations," Ballabio said.


Quote:
Shroud of Turin's Authenticity Probed Anew


Differing Conclusions

The researchers performed a statistical analysis which involved each of the 256 configurations and concluded that there is a strong difference in the 14C concentration of the small rectangle used in the tests, with the upper-right corner being about 300 years younger than the lower left corner.

According to Ballabio, the study shows that the sample must have been substantially contaminated.

"The statistical tests performed by the labs assumed a 14C homogeneity in the samples, but my statistical evaluation shows exactly the opposite and puts into serious question the validity of the dating. Since a 300-year difference is present in a few square inches, one must wonder how this data translates into a 14- by 4-foot-long linen," Ballabio said.

According to Raymond Schneider, assistant professor of mathematics and computer science at Bridgewater College in Virginia, Ballabio's paper might be an important new contribution to support the request for new tests on the shroud.

"I have not seen Ballabio's paper, but if he really succeeded in improving the estimation of any gradient present, we can say that there are serious and compelling reasons to consider the sample site anomalous or contaminated or both," Schneider told Discovery News.

For his part, Ramsey, an expert in the use of carbon dating in archaeological research, is keeping an open mind toward the new hypothesis.

"Everyone who has worked in this area, radiocarbon scientists and all of the other experts, need to have a critical look at the evidence that they've come up with in order for us to try to work out some kind of coherent story that tells us the true history of this intriguing cloth," he said.


http://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/embed.php?File=

Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit

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 Post subject: Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2010 1:45 am 
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Image

Ancient technique of a woven seam on the Shroud.

The Shroud has Middle Eastern pollen on it and the method of weaving is ancient.

So this is where the Crista discussion went, are there any other depictions of it other

than on the coins?

I like the magic-mirror connection.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2010 4:50 am 
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The type of weave of the cloth is consistent with the carbon dating.

The Turin Shroud is in my opinion successfully explained in the book:

The Second Messiah.

The image is that of Jacques de Molay - The last Grand Master of the Knights Templar.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2010 6:57 am 
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IMHO
The Jaques de Molay is a compelling fit because it allows for the days of exposure it would require for the antique camera obsura to work, not because they followed Jesus but because the templars heretically followed John and what his secret may have been.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2010 3:59 pm 
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Quote:
Jacques de Molay is an impossibility because the Shroud existed centuries before Jacques de Molay.


References to a shroud existed centuries before Jacques de Molay.

Quote:
A camera would provide a roughly similar image - visually, however the theory falls apart when one considers the actual chemistry involved in the image. Additionally, if you've espoused the myth that it's de Molay's image, it would've had to have been a "living de Molay" posing for the image (not that it physically resembles him in the least), as the deceased de Molay was crispy-fried and shrunken from aggravated exposure to heat and flame.


I believe it was something like a tortured Jacques de Molay which changed his physiological chemistry "posing" for the image.

Quote:
Lastly, the Templars were not heretical and were not "followers of John's secret". These myths will probably never die out, people love them too much and they're too convenient to myth-weavers (hi Roscoe!), but they're still 100% false.


While the Templars were found not heretical they were in a position to be accused of it. And if it took the Catholic Church 700 years to clear it up they certainly wanted people to believe it then and now.

If the "carbon dating" becomes irrefutable or some kind of technology not known to us now (i.e. in cases of dna) and the cloth is tied to a certain era. Than it might be considered that there is more than one cloth. It's not inconceivable to believe there may be a public shroud and private shroud. Two cloths of two different eras.

I agree with Seeker1 that the scientific findings must be included in consideration of the dating of the Shroud. And as you point out people will continue with the myths until the point is clarified.
If the science becomes irrefutable than what more is there to argue about, except then it becomes a case of accounting for the original historical references and we can do so by coming up with other hypotheses.

I personally don't understand why there is a disconnect between the carbon dating and the historical references. Call me simple, but isn't that the basic point, yes I can agree you with you on the historical points but scientifically the carbon dating and weaving does not suggest this is the same shroud, although I think the science can exist to produce the image long before it is even thought of in "traditionally accepted" history.

If on the other hand the science matches the historical records than problem solvered. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2010 9:57 pm 
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The Colonna/Philippe Le Bel alliance seems to be widely ignored, and conveniently so, by esotericists of all stripes.

As does the Colonna/Orsini situation and as one of the characters, a member of the Celestine's hermit order, states:

As everyone is aware, the princes of the Church are divided, almost equally, into two hostile factions, the Colonna faction on one side, and the Orsini on the other. They aren't worried about the disastrous conditions of the Christian people, but only about their own family interests. Can a more revolting sacrilege be imagined? ... Obscene spectacles ... The cardinals belong to the great Roman families, landowners and money-lenders. Each of them is greedy to add to his ill-gotten riches, laying hands on the patrimony of the Church and the Papal States. ...

And on and on and on it continued ….

http://www.hermitary.com/articles/celestine.html

As a cardinal Gaetani had acquired rich cities and adjoining territories - and as Pontiff Boniface continued to amass wealth and power which was to bring him into direct confrontation with the Colonnas, who ruled their territory from the hilltop city of Palestrina, twenty-two miles east of Rome. The Colonnas tried to instigate a revolt against the Pontiff by claiming that Boniface's election was invalid as he had usurped power that rightly belonged to Celestine. At the same time, Stephen Colonna attacked and plundered the Pope's gold which was being sent to Caserta to buy yet another city for the Gaetani dynasty. Boniface, blind with fury, threw two of the Colonna cardinals into prison.
The Colonna offered to return the gold but Boniface wanted not only revenge on Stephen Colonna but also the Colonnas' destruction by installing garrisons inside the Colonna cities. This option was totally unacceptable to the Colonna and the next day, Colonna messengers posted manifestos attacking the legitimacy of Boniface's election all over Rome, leaving one tacked to the high altar of St. Peter's. In response, Boniface issued a papal bull, In Excelso Throno, which charged the two imprisoned Colonna cardinals with heresy, excommunicated them and every member of the family. Boniface then announced a religious crusade against the Colonna, using money from all over Europe which had been intended to finance the Crusades in the Holy Land to buy the Knights Templar to crush the Colonna strongholds. An order went out that the Colonna women and children were to be killed or sold into slavery. With the help of his mercenary army, by 1299 all the Colonna cities had been captured. Palestrina was completely razed to the ground, and the Colonna family went to France in exile where they were given refuge by French nobility.

http://www.pccua.edu/keough/church_in_t ... entury.htm

It is said that Sciarra was involved in the attempted arrest of Pope Boniface VIII in 1303 by order of the French King Philip IV. Sciarra Colonna and Guillaume de Nogaret (lawyer and royal advisor of Philip IV) were to arrest the pope and bring him to France to stand trial, but this attempt failed. Pope Boniface VIII died 3 weeks later in Italy.

Nogaret gathered a band of adventurers and of enemies of the Gaetani (Boniface's family) in the Apennines. The great Colonna house, at bitter feud with the Gaetani, was his strongest ally, and Sciarra Colonna accompanied Nogaret to Anagni, Boniface's birthplace. On September 7, with their band of some sixteen hundred men, Nogaret and Colonna surprised the little town. Boniface was taken prisoner. Sciarra wished to kill him, but Nogaret's policy was to take him to France and compel him to summon a general council.

The tide soon turned, however. On the 9th a concerted rising of the townsmen in Boniface's favour put Nogaret and his allies to flight, and the pope was free. His death at Rome on October 11 saved Nogaret. The election of the timid Benedict XI was the beginning of that triumph of France which lasted through the Avignon captivity. Early in 1304 Nogaret went to Languedoc to report to Philip IV, and was rewarded by gifts of land and money. Then he was sent back with an embassy to Benedict XI to demand absolution for all concerned in the struggle with Boniface VIII. Benedict refused to meet Nogaret, and excepted him from the general absolution which he granted on May 12, 1304, and on June 7 issued against him and his associates at Anagni the bull Flagitiosum scelus. Nogaret replied by apologies for his conduct based upon attacks upon the memory of Boniface, and when Benedict died on July 7, 1304 he pointed to his death as a witness to the justice of his cause.

French influence was successful in getting a Frenchman, Bertrand de Got (Clement V) elected as Benedict's successor. The threat of proceedings against the memory of Boniface was renewed to force Clement to absolve Nogaret, and Clement had given way on this point when the further question of an inquiry into the condition of the Knights Templar was brought forward by Philip as a preliminary to their arrest and the seizure of their property in October 1307. Nogaret was active in getting the renegade members of the order to give evidence against their fellows, and the whole proceedings against them bear traces of his unscrupulous and merciless pen. Clement's weak and ineffective resistance to this still further delayed the agreement between him and Philip. Nogaret had become keeper of the seal this year in succession to Pierre de Belleperche.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_de_Nogaret


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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2010 1:24 am 
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I understand it all too well, myself, and it doesn't bother me much if people still want to struggle to obtain "scientific" data and corroboration or debunking evidence, but it bothers me a lot when the speculation involving de Molay, or Da Vinci, or some other nonsense is taken with any seriousness at all, and it doesn't seem to jibe with purported "scientific concerns".


For me it will answer more then just one question, it would be so for others. I also do not discount there is an interruption of the degradation of the carbon process which does allow for a correct dating of the cloth and therefore only the historical references can be considered.
For some it's just some cloth over Europe way that may just be a fake or not. I'm nosy I guess. Looking at history with questioning eyes is part of a free and evolved society. Science is only a method it's not a belief it allows one to dissect a problem, gives proofs and evidence, and when your in court it's better then being burned at the stake for being a witch.

This is speculation of course.


As I pointed out before Nogaret had alliances and blackmail schemes all over the place including with the Lombards and it was not a matter of ignoring history for a usurption of my natural and holistic medium of esoteric belief. He ran his own personal agenda along side those he conveniently allied himself for Greed and power. And he would have been well aware of the pending dissolution of the Templars being that he was part and parcel of it's orchestration. The Lombards being a natural inheritors of the Templars Banking Empire and in a position to benefit from the dissolution would have insured themselves heavily with documents/copies of receipts and objects of which eventually found it's way around Britain and Europe. The colonna's would have been far too powerful for Nogaret to ever have trusted them fully and therefore you won't necessarily find evidence of this in the colonna's alliance with Philippe Le Bel.


http://www.andrewgough.co.uk/
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The study of Esoterica demands an interdisciplinary approach and a critical examination of information sources.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2010 1:54 am 
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This is the concept I'm skating around. It reminds me of the story when one of the Cagots holds an apple in his hand it dessicates in plain view but it's just a story.

Quote:
NUCLEAR MEDICINE AND ITS RELEVANCE
TO THE SHROUD OF TURIN
August D. Accetta MD, Kenneth Lyons MD, John Jackson PhD.
Hypothesis: If indeed a corpse created the image we see on the Shroud, then the source for the
energy received by the cloth may be from the molecular bond energy and/or nuclear forces within
the body in some way interacting with the cloth. The closest practical tool we have to study this
today is nuclear medicine.
Keywords: STURP: Shroud of Turin Research Project, Tc-99m MDP: Technesium-99 metastable
methylene diphosphate, V-P-8: Vertical projection photodensitometer.
Introduction: The Turin Shroud bears an image of an apparent crucified man, chemically the
result of some dehydrative, oxidative, and subsequent carbonyl conjugative process of cellulose,
the origin of which is heretofore enigmatic.1 Many properties of the Shroud are however understood
quite well. For example, it is clearly understood through the work of STURP and others
that the Shroud did in fact wrap someone at some point in time and that it is not the product of
some medieval artist.2
The Shroud image suggests quite strongly the presence of many skeletal details e.g. carpal and
metacarpal bones, some 22 teeth, eye sockets, left femur, left and possibly right thumbs flexed
under the palms of the hands, as well as soft tissue and soft tissue injuries; all presumably originating
from some form of radiation emitted from the body enshrouded.3
No scientific human model has been satisfactorily utilized to offer elucidation of the origin of this
quality an image. Many have postulated image formation theories e.g. Pellicori-Germans “latent
image” and Jackson et al direct contact experiments which he concluded had quite negative
results and have effectively been ruled out.4 Others have suggested diffusion.5 Schwalbe and
Rojers however, failed in the properties not limited to sharpness and clarity of the image.6 Later
researchers such as Giles Carter and Thaddeus Trenn have studied radiation biology in a theoretical
framework and have achieved promising results in terms of image superficiality and clarity.7
The human radiation model seems to offer the greatest application to the Shroud image thus far.

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Last edited by rain on 12 Jan 2010 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2010 2:13 am 
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Thomas ~ hope you like the pdf I haven't given the full link because it's stalling my computer.

Tingra ~ Thank-you for the links, for the historical study.

Roger ~ Thank-you most of all. It would you that would know better then anyone else here..... I don't wish to step on your toes. I was just trying to address the ideas floating around about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2010 3:01 pm 
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rain wrote:
IMHO
The Jaques de Molay is a compelling fit because it allows for the days of exposure it would require for the antique camera obsura to work, not because they followed Jesus but because the templars heretically followed John and what his secret may have been.


Hello,
The problem with the neat 'Second Messiah' scenario is that it is, very clearly, a bit of reverse logic. In taking the enigma of the image on the shroud they have looked for a face that fits and come up with Jacques de Molay. The explanation has then been stretched to fit.
It fits in very well with the zeitgeist, something which has been very rewarding to them.

A quick glance at their bibliography makes it clear that their research is second hand. With a few notable exceptions there are no primary sources used, certainly nothing pre 1850 is quoted.
Another issue is that de Molay was held for six or seven years. There is no attempt to address when, during this captivity, he was subjected to this 'mock crucifixion'. If it was early then why keep the alleged shroud for another six years when he survived?
If the intention was to pretend to kill him why nurse him back to health and keep the evidence in shroud form that you nearly killed him against kings orders?
If it was before the final death then why almost kill him to revive him for the pyre?

Admittedly its been some years since I read 'Second Messiah' but despite the attractive idea I still remember thinking but why bother ?
He wasn't a young athletic man as the image suggests but an old, and some may claim, expendable, man.

Also, why pass off his 'Shroud' as an object of veneration? There has never been any attempt to ascribe to him any 'special' staus?
If it was a happy accident that this mock shroud turned out to have a passing resemblence to that of Jesus then how would you push its claim against the one that already existed in Besancon Cathedral that had a Byzantine provenance?

Knight and Lomas? good storytellers but poor historians.......read the 'Book of Hiram'! :roll:

TD.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2010 2:32 am 
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Quote:
Shroud Description
The cloth

The Shroud is a single piece of linen cloth measuring about 14 feet by 3½ feet. The weave is a 3 over 1 herringbone weave. It is bloodstained and shows faint ventral and dorsal images of a man who, by the wounds that are visible, appears to have been crucified. He seems to be in burial repose.

The bloodstains

The bloodstains on the Shroud are composed of hemoglobin and give a positive test for serum albumin. Numerous tests confirm this.

The images

The Shroud's images are superficial and fully contained within a thin layer of starch fractions and saccharides that coats the outermost fibers of the Shroud. The coloration is a caramel-like product or the product of an amino/carbonyl reaction. Where there is no image, the carbohydrate coating is clear. There is also a very faint image of the face on the reverse side of the Shroud which lines up with the image on the front of the cloth. There is no image content between the two superficial image layers indicating that nothing soaked through to form the image on the other side.

Until recently, it was widely believed that the images on the Shroud of Turin were produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the fibers of the linen itself. This has been shown to be incorrect. The coating, whether imaged or clear, can be reduced with diimide or removed with adhesive leaving clear cellulose fiber.

The images as they appear on the Shroud are said to be negative because when photographed the resulting negative is a positive image.

The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, laser­microprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist's media was found anywhere on the Shroud.



Quote:
In addition, spliced threads have been found in the carbon 14 zone. Textile experts has examined documentary photographs of the sample provided to the labs and have determined that older and newer thread have been woven together using a technique similar to modern day "invisible weaving.

Additional ongoing work at Georgia Tech dramatically shows the dye and places along threads where the dye was interrupted by cross threads. The places where the threads crossed and where the dye was not applied are confirmed by deep indentations from the cross threads.

The dyestuff and the splices suggest that the sample was taken from a medieval mending; a weaved-in patch to the cloth.


Quote:
Furthermore:

Lignin decomposition analysis suggests that the Shroud is at least twice as old as C14 estimates.

Unique stitching patterns resemble cloth found at Masada (40 BC to 73 AD).

Variegated patterns in the Shroud show a pre-Medieval bleaching technology.



A 3D terrain map projection of the image color intensity. This is one of the most puzzling physical properties of the picture. Produced using a VP-8 Image Analyzer.



Image

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 Post subject: Re: Another Turin Shroud Documentary
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2010 10:51 pm 
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Roger wrote:
The Saint Suaire de Besancon was supposedly brought into France through the Villhardouin family... the very same family conveying the Turin Shroud. It's more than likely that the Besancon shroud was merely a copy (albeit one-sided only) of the Turin Shroud.

]


So if the alleged donation by de la Roche in 1208 has no documentary support and the 'Saint Suaire de Besancon' is a post Lirey anachronism with only one view, what evidence is there to support the idea that the Vilhardouin family did have the original?

Did de Charny steal it from them or did it come to him through his wifes family connection?

Another pot boiler documentary on uk tv tonight reprising Prince and Pinknetts well versed stage act about those naughty Savoys comissioning da Vinci to come up with an improvement on the cheap fake that they had bought from de Charny's family.
They must love the whole thing.
The graphics showing the 'perfect facial match' with one of da Vinci's facial proportion studies put me in mind of the thread last year when jim insisted it was Michaelangelo's face !

TD :wink:


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