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 Post subject: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 3:00 pm 
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Acolyte
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Location: Glastonbury
"Jesus may have come to Britain - and paid a visit to Glastonbury, a new film documentary claims. Researcher Dr Gordon Strachan said it was possible the Lord walked our shores to further his understanding of spirituality, as Britain was the seat of learning in his time."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2746391/New-film-claims-that-Jesus-visited-Glastonbury.html

Did Jesus visit England?

Did St Joseph of Arimathea arrive in England soon after the Passion to establish the earliest western Christian Church and effectively become the Apostle of Britain?


Image

In 1997 I was involved in a UK documentary film about Jesus' visit, and in 1998 I participated in a similar documentary for an American television network. I provided the genesis of the Sacred Cup (sometimes known as the Holy Grail) from Palestine to England in the custody of St Joseph of Arimathea. In the NBC documentary, I spoke from Glastonbury Abbey and in the UK programme the Grail Chapel at the Holy Grail Retreat Centre. As well as discussing the supernatural healing properties attributed to the Sacred Cup of the Last Supper, I talked about the visits believed to have been made by Jesus to England and the coming of the Grail to Glastonbury after the Passion. Since that time I have been inundated with requests for Prayer Cloths that have been anointed and blessed with oil and water in the Nanteos Cup (see photograph above), believed by some to be the Holy Grail.

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 4:53 pm 
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Acolyte
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Roger wrote:
I feel that, by indulging the more woolly-headed fantasies of "new agers" embroidering on ancient legends, you take something away from the Doctrine, on which one would think the congregation's focus should be concentrated. Of course, that's just my feeling... I'm sure others feel otherwise, and I assume this is excellent marketing, in this day and age...


It is rather more than fantasy, legend and excellent marketing.

Epistolae ad Gregoniam Papam corrobrates the tradition that Our Lord not only came to Britain but also built a Church while He was at Glastonbury which at that time was surrounded by water. The old wattle Church at Glastonbury was held in a veneration which far transcended that which would be accorded to an early Christian sanctuary, even if it was supposed to have been erected by or in the time of the Apostles. St Augustine, believing Britain to be entirely pagan, was astonished to discover a thriving Church with its own bishops in the west of England.

The Roman Catholic Church had nothing to gain by making the admission that the first Christian Church in Britain was other than their own, yet in 597 St Augustine of Canterbury wrote to Pope Gregory:

"In the Western confines of Britain there is a certain royal island of large extent, surrounded by water, abounding in all beauties of nature and necessaries of life. In it the first Neophites of Catholic Law, God hath beforehand acquainted them, found a Church constructed by no human art, BUT DIVINELY CONSTRUCTED BY THE ANDS OF CHRIST HIMSELF, for the salvation of His people. The Almighty has made it manifest by many miracles and mysterious visitions that He continues to watch over it as sacred to Himself, and to Mary, the Mother of God."

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. . .

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)


Last edited by +Seán Manchester on 26 Nov 2009 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 5:15 pm 
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Acolyte
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Roger wrote:
If it is your view that this constitutes corroboration, then (in deference to Andy) I'll have to "diplomatically" restrain myself from any public comment on this.


It is but the tip of the iceberg of evidence in support of what we know and feel in our hearts and souls to be true.

Guardianship of the Holy Grail had been given to St Joseph of Arimathea. St Joseph was one of the early disciples of Our Lord (the Bible confirms that the Apostles at Jerusalem referred to St Joseph as being a disciple of Christ), but he nevertheless needed to be properly ordained by the laying on of hands by one of the original apostles for him to begin his apostolic appointment as first bishop of the Apostolic Church of the Grail Church.

St Joseph bade farewell to St Philip and the faithful in Gaul where he had arrived, having been expelled from Palestine in an oarless boat with other disciples, and set off with his company of twelve for the Sacred Isle of the West. Reaching these shores, the small band of disciples sailed the waterway until they came in sight of a lofty green hill ~ Glastonbury Tor. Following their arrival the travellers made their way up a hill in sight of the Tor and St Joseph, weary from his journey, stopped to rest. He thrust his pastoral staff into the ground whereupon it immediately took root and eventually blossomed.

The task of rebuilding the first Church was completed in AD 39. It was sixty feet in length and twenty-six feet wide, akin to the pattern of the Tabernacle. St Joseph installed a shrine for the Sacred Cup, the Holy Grail, at its central altar where the Last Supper was celebrated in memory of Christ. The Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail was founded in Britain in AD 36, having been consecrated by Christ Himself ~ taking three years to rebuild. It was Catholic (universal) and Apostolic, but never Roman Catholic.

Christ is the sole Head of the Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail.

_________________
. . .

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 8:08 pm 
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High King

Joined: 15 May 2008 7:42 pm
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Location: NEWCASTLE on the Tyne
and you actually believe that??? :lol:

this gets more bizarre by the minute :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 9:43 pm 
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Sean, I haven't found anywhere in the 3 year ministry Jesus utilized to teach the Apostles what was expected of them to promulgate to the world, that Jesus took a sabbatical vacation, jetted to the UK to set up shop temporarily in Glastonbury of all places and left items that could not have been left 'cuz they weren't used 'til the night HE performed the Miracles at the Last Supper.

How did Joseph of Arimathea get hold of items Sr Emmerich described as still being present in the Mid East after Jesus Ascended into heaven? I put far more credence in a nun who requested the Stigmata than yer version. Just calling a clay cup that gets transmogrified into a metallic cup of gold, and makin' a photo op of it ain't very kosher.

I use kosher in this sense to reflect on the Jewish origin of Passover Seder traditions. Sr. Emmerich traces the origin and description of the cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper and yer version don't match, how come? The bit 'boot Jesus establishin' a cult is now in the realm of blasphemous sacrilege, yes? HE gave Peter the job of establishin' HIS Church, yes? Peter was told the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church Peter passed on to his successors.

So, Sean, can ya tell me where yer grail church has been hidin' out these past 2,000 years?

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..." I may not always be right... BUT, I am never wrong..." sez the Queen of Hearts


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 Post subject: Real source for Joseph, England and the Grail!
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 10:49 pm 
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006 11:57 pm
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"JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA IN BRITAIN
Chrétien never mentioned Joseph. Robert did not bring Joseph westward. Rather Bron, now called the Fisher King, went west with the Holy Grail. The literary pathways by which Joseph was brought westward with the Grail in the romances are as treacherous as the Sword Bridge. The following texts, taken as a whole, may well
provide the solution to Joseph's hardly credible literary journey to sainthood in Britain.

A 5th-8th c. early "I, Joseph" Georgian text, crucial for my thesis, contains probably the first notice that Joseph's apocryphal missionary activity was associated with that of St. Philip and that together the two built a church at Lydda (Diospolis),
directly west of Jerusalem. The NT Book of Acts names two Philips and defines their missionary area as Samaria and Caesarea in Palestine and Hierapolis and Phrygia/Galatia in Turkey. If Joseph had ever been associated with Philip, primary documents place them only in the East. The reader is asked to keep this point in
abeyance.

A literary floodgate was opened by an anonymous monk who, about 530, was copying the Liber Pontificalis, a chronicle of the popes listing salient events during each reign. Under Pope Eleutherus (170-185), the copyist inserted: "This pope received a
letter from British King Lucius [Britannio rege Lucio] asking that he might be made a Christian through his agency." The copyist did not name Philip or Joseph. The problem is that in 170 there were no kings of Britannia, which was still a Roman province. Both
l'Abbé L. Duchesne, premier editor of the Liber Pontificalis, and Louise Ropes Loomis, its translator, wonder about the source of the insertion. Loomis asserts that the "statement . . . appears first here in Liber Pontificalis."
The interpolated note was used by Bede (8th c.) in his Ecclesiastical History of Britain, who in turn was a source for every other early British historian, including Pseudo-Nennius. Bede followed his source in naming British King Lucius and Pope
Eleutherus, and he accepted the first conversion of Britain at that time.33 Gildas, sixthcentury monk-historian, our earliest British source--and Bede's main authority--made no reference to any of this. Thus Bede's source here must be the scribal insert. But this
simple insertion has had the most far-reaching consequences.
William of Malmesbury, writing his history of Glastonbury Abbey about 1125, used Bede and Freculphus, ninth-century bishop of Lisieux. The words of Freculphus' Chronicle: Phillipus . . . Gallis praedicavit Christum were ambiguous enough to
suggest that Philip had preached in France rather than--what was true --among the Gauls in Galatia, Turkey. Indeed, William's original book had said only that unnamed missionaries had been sent to Britain by the pope at the request of British King Lucius
in 166 (from Bede). He said that if St. Philip had preached in Gaul "as Freculphus had declared," it was probably he who sent the missionaries into Britain. Though William did not mention Joseph, his book led ultimately to the claims of Glastonbury Abbey to
have been founded by Joseph of Arimathea. The little book by J. A. Robinson, essentially the locus classicus on this topic,
tells what happened next, and it is well known. In 1184 fire had seriously damaged Glastonbury. Funds were required for its repair. In 1189 funding from King Henry II ceased with his death. In 1191 the monks announced that they had found the bodies of
King Arthur and Guenevere on the gr ounds, and soon after they claimed the tomb of Joseph with two vials containing the blood and water from Jesus' side. The tourists came with open purses. But two vials are not the Grail--which, oddly, Glastonbury
never claimed to have.

In 1247 William's book was copied by Glastonbury monks --with additions. In a new introduction we read, "St. Philip was [emphasis added] in Gaul, as Freculphus tells us. He sent twelve disciples to preach in Britain, and as is said [ut ferunt], he placed at
their head his favourite disciple, Joseph of Arimathea." It is this derivative text of 1247 that first directly placed Joseph in Glastonbury and it derives from Freculphus, the
sixth-century insertion (via Bede), and the Georgian MS linking Joseph with Philip. Wesselofsky and Imbs think the old Lydda tradition of Joseph and Philip as missionaries and their construction of a church to the Virgin was adopted and adapted
by Glastonbury. In adding the character of Joseph, the Glastonbury redactors, of course, had the motive of placing him in Glastonbury and making it the primal seat of the Faith in Britain.

WHO IS KING LUCIUS OF BRITAIN?
Biblical scholar Adolf Harnack first noticed in 1904 that the interpolated King Lucius in the Liber Pontificalis was really King Abgar VIII, full name Lucius Aelius [Aurelius] Septimius Megas Abgarus VIII (177-212), first Christian king of Edessa and the only King Lucius who espoused Christianity in the late second century, time of Pope
Eleutherus. Harnack also revea led the crucial fact that Edessa was sometimes referred to by a term describing its citadel: in Syriac Birtha, in Latin Britium. The sixth-century Syriac Chronicle of Edessa announces that "in the year 205 Abgar VIII built the Birtha." Clement of Alexa ndria, late second century, fortifies this
identification: a Latin excerpt of his fragmentary Hypotyposes (Themes) says the tomb of St. Jude-Thaddaeus was known to be in Britio Edessenorum, the citadel of Abgar.
Palut, Edessa's first bishop, was consecrated around 200. The Chronicle of Edessa mentions the destruction by flooding of "the sanctuary of the Christian church" in 201. Eusebius notes that the bishops of Phrygia and Osrhoëne (of which Edessa
was the capital) communicated with the bishop of Rome in the time of Pope Eleutherus. Ample documents assert that Abgar VIII had close ties with Rome.
Rome's client kings sometimes took Roman names, and Abgar likely took his from Emperor Septimius Severus. Around 202, on Septimius' invitation, Abgar visited Rome amid a lavish reception. So new convert Lucius Abgar may indeed have corresponded with Eleutherus --Lucius of Edessa, not England. The "British King
Lucius" of the sixth-century insert in the Liber Pontificalis fits England not at all, and Edessa entirely".

http://www.west.net/~shroud/pdfs/n56part3.pdf

Above taken from research i am doing on Veronicas veil, the Grail legends etc etc. Seems to throw some light on the subjects being discussed in this thread.
Look further to Robert de Boron and his borrowing of the 'Gospel of Nicodemus' to create his Grail texts ...... one can see where misunderstandings about Joseph have appeared .....


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 11:27 pm 
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High King

Joined: 26 Oct 2006 9:11 pm
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Location: Livingston, Scotland.
And did those feet in ancient time, walk upon England's mountain's green ? Blake's question has never been answered, and maybe never will be. But it's an old tale and a recurring one. And one subject to a documentary film featuring the Reverend Gordon Strachan, one of the Church of Scotland's more interesting ministers.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... gland.html


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 11:29 pm 
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Roger, I just noticed that you're quoting Stephen Stills. Excellent !


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 11:42 pm 
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Pilrig, is that a hint Stills is a bonafide member of Sean's club, er ah kult?

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..." I may not always be right... BUT, I am never wrong..." sez the Queen of Hearts


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2009 11:53 pm 
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High King

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jabberwock wrote:
Pilrig, is that a hint Stills is a bonafide member of Sean's club, er ah kult?


Dunno about that, but the song that Roger appends to his posts is called Southern Cross. As far as affiliations go, Stills is a card-carrying member of the Democrat Party.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2009 12:06 am 
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oy weh, Pilrig, say it ain't so. He's a Hillary the control freak fan who is there in the White House to give barkin barky his marchin' orders she gets from Teflon slick willie, in fact, a double oy weh. already, so.

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..." I may not always be right... BUT, I am never wrong..." sez the Queen of Hearts


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2009 11:33 am 
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High King
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jabberwock wrote:
Sean, I haven't found anywhere in the 3 year ministry Jesus utilized to teach the Apostles what was expected of them to promulgate to the world, that Jesus took a sabbatical vacation, jetted to the UK to set up shop temporarily in Glastonbury of all places and left items that could not have been left 'cuz they weren't used 'til the night HE performed the Miracles at the Last Supper.

How did Joseph of Arimathea get hold of items Sr Emmerich described as still being present in the Mid East after Jesus Ascended into heaven? I put far more credence in a nun who requested the Stigmata than yer version. Just calling a clay cup that gets transmogrified into a metallic cup of gold, and makin' a photo op of it ain't very kosher.

I use kosher in this sense to reflect on the Jewish origin of Passover Seder traditions. Sr. Emmerich traces the origin and description of the cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper and yer version don't match, how come? The bit 'boot Jesus establishin' a cult is now in the realm of blasphemous sacrilege, yes? HE gave Peter the job of establishin' HIS Church, yes? Peter was told the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church Peter passed on to his successors.

So, Sean, can ya tell me where yer grail church has been hidin' out these past 2,000 years?

Hell and heavens, Jake, you can actually write plain English when talking to an authority. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2009 5:21 pm 
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High King

Joined: 07 Nov 2006 11:57 pm
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Epistolae ad Gregoniam Papam

Could you furnish a reference where i can find this particular source?

St Augustine of Canterbury wrote to Pope Gregory

Do you know what evidence Saint Augustine was basing his supposition on?

It is but the tip of the iceberg of evidence in support of what we know and feel in our hearts and souls to be true.

Isnt that kind of cheating? I believe in my heart and soul that its possible that Jesus survived the Crucifixion. But that isnt enough is it? Imagine if i said to you most of my 'evidence' for this was that which i feel in my heart and soul? You would argue with me that it wasnt enough.

Shouldnt we expect a little more evidence than you are offering?

The task of rebuilding the first Church was completed in AD 39.

There was no such thing as a 'church' in AD39.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2009 10:58 pm 
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jabberwock wrote:
oy weh, Pilrig, say it ain't so. He's a Hillary the control freak fan who is there in the White House to give barkin barky his marchin' orders she gets from Teflon slick willie, in fact, a double oy weh. already, so.


Not sure if Stills is admirer of the dreaded Clintons but he reckons that his fellow Southern Man, Jimmy Carter was a much underrated prez.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2009 10:48 am 
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High King
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Why in the world would Jesus have done that long hazardous trip to England? No chance.

He stayed in Palestine after the crucifixion and spent the rest of his life as an unremarkable essene priest. :!:


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2009 1:52 pm 
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I think it's interesting that there's a twin set of myths about the Glastonbury region. The "first church of JoA" is one. But the other are the Arthurian myths. I read a book by Geoffrey Ashe on the later topic, where he heavily tried to argue that Glastonbury really was the Arthurian isle of Avalon. At one point, the medieval monks of Glastonbury Abbey were also claiming they had Arthur's tomb as well as JoA's planted "rod". Of course, most historians view this as typical medieval pious fraud, a way for them to bump up the pilgrim trade. It all gave "Sir" Laurence Gardner a grand opportunity to claim some figures in the Arthurian myths were real, and do their "geneaology" going back to Jesus' time.

On the other hand, it does seem that the Glastonbury Tor was a megalithic site, and may have been used going back to the Neolithic period. It's probably again a site where the Christian church took over something of earlier pagan significance. I think the JoA legends are just a way for the British church to claim antiquity and primacy ... the only major 1st century churches are in Asia Minor and the Mediterranean. That said, there are interesting aspects to the Celtic Church, and the 1st part of Messianic Legacy does go into that.

Katherine Maltwood's Glastonbury terrestrial Zodiac is probably where Elizabeth Van Buren got the idea to claim the same thing is in the RlC region.

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2009 11:28 pm 
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High King

Joined: 26 Oct 2006 9:11 pm
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Roger wrote:
Pilrig wrote:
jabberwock wrote:
oy weh, Pilrig, say it ain't so. He's a Hillary the control freak fan who is there in the White House to give barkin barky his marchin' orders she gets from Teflon slick willie, in fact, a double oy weh. already, so.


Not sure if Stills is admirer of the dreaded Clintons but he reckons that his fellow Southern Man, Jimmy Carter was a much underrated prez.


I think you much simplify Stephen's position on Carter. BTW, "Southern Man", with capital letters, is a fatuous conceit belonging entirely to Neil, not Stephen.

As to the Clintons, they are merely educated and verbal versions of Dubya.


Stills reckons that Carter was a better prez than generally portrayed, he has said words to that effect.

Yep I know about Southern Man - I'm an unreconstructed CSNY fan after all ! Btw Young's song "Stringman" was based on Stills.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic Church of the Holy Grail
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2009 1:46 pm 
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High King

Joined: 26 Oct 2006 9:11 pm
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Location: Livingston, Scotland.
Eginolf wrote:
Why in the world would Jesus have done that long hazardous trip to England?


A nice break away from the bloody Romans and the bloody Pharisees and those tiresome disciples of his :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc&feature=fvw


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