Arcadia Discussion Zone

No quotes, no websites, Roger, I've stated my position.

There is no Devil. There is no evil that exists outside of human beings as a force.

There is the evil that people do, and I agree with Thomas D. that our standards evolve & change. Maybe always for the better; maybe not. Today infanticide is unacceptable. In other times & places, it wasn't.

I still maintain that for me the standard of evil is to examine it via the golden rule; I would say in general, to treat people in ways you would not want to be treated is evil. Being rude to them is a minor evil. Stealing from them in a minor way is worse. Stealing their livelihood for perpetuity is a major evil. Murdering them is the worst possible, the one evil from which there can be no recovery or redress.

Oh, and as for G-d, unlike VAM, I'm an agnostic. I don't know what exists. What I think could exist is probably closer to the ideas of deism and pantheism than traditional Western theism. There does seem to be a hidden order to the universe. Perhaps, like rain, we could call it Tao. I think it is beyond good and evil, light and darkness, and other simple dualities.

As for a Deity who cares about men wearing women's clothing and ordering their deaths thereof -- I find that to be nonsense dreamed up 3000 years ago by priests who put their narrow morals in the mouth of their projections.

Well, it's not necessarily an easy question to answer succinctly, Roger, unless that is, one holds to one of the two strong and opposing convictions on this subject - that Evil as an entity most certainly does, or does not, exist.

For the rest of us, it requires a little more verbiage. I suppose I could have merely said that I don't know, because I don't. But as you've probably gathered by now, I'm not very good at short answers.

I thought it was a good question, incidentally.

Socrates drank his bitter draught of kool-aid once, Baudelaire's judgement was clouded through much of his adult life by his particular private poisons.
That subject was dealt with in the following book:
Baudelaire in Chains: A Portrait of the Artist as a Drug Addict, by Frank Hilton
http://www.peterowen.com/pages/nonfic/baudelaire.htm

The essay entitled The De-demonization of Evil addresses the subject of Evil in the C20th and discusses Sartre's critique of Baudelaire.
IMNSHO it is good read on the subject under discussion.
http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/5/dedemonization.php

Well I'm with Richard here
this is a tough issue to put into words
I am still learning

I about died when you said Socrates was a kool aid drinker
that wasn't KOOL AID that was hemlock
course with all the chemicals now days in Kool aid it might be considered hemlock

but the main point is as he lifted his mug and said cheers
I'm just leaving earlier from this party than the rest of you Bozos
Socrates is saying
there is nothing to fear
I'll be back (reincarnation) or I'll simply move on
I agree there is no hell only the one of our making
now that is where Jesus teaching of Love and Forgiveness is really cool

Are you looking for our religious affiliation? Christian, Moslem Jew Atheist Mason Scientologist Buddhist
Let me ask you a question Roger
does the title help you
because I found those so limiting and restrictive
that is why I went for like Socrates Plato and Pythagoras
their the foundation of many of these

I can tell you I believe in Angels
there is a Hierarchy
it is not a matter of good or bad ones
its a matter of levels
So I guess Good and Evil can be look like a spectroscopy starting from light -----------dark
they are one
just various degrees of light

Kabbalah and Christianity Buddhism and Moslems Mason Jews all have similar take on them

Not exactly "Humanist", but definitely science ...http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/18573/page1/

Yes, it is a link to an article but neuroscience is studying this type of question along with many others. I do happen to believe that there are environmental conditions can "trigger" behaviors in those that have certain biological predispositions. Whether these tendencies are remnants of the "reptilian" brain or not, I am not sure. I also think that the psychological ramification of abuse or trauma can alter normal brain wave patters which may in turn physically change the brain, or at least the way it is used by a particular person. Does evil exist as an entity on its own? I personally do not think so. I also do not think that necessarily means there is no "Satan". Who knows? If he exists, it is to said that he provides tempatation, that in itself is not evil. Evil is an abstract concept defined by man. Some of the very same acts that we as humans classify as evil (or at least most of us) would be considered survival of the fittest amongst other creatures in nature...

Oh heavens, this is one of those threads i don't want to get entangled in...because to me it would seem that there is evil per se ...on this,how can you say it, ...in this dimension...our dimension as we know it..,that we can understand & deal with ...and then there is EVIL... which is not of this realm, of this dimension...that i (personally speaking)...would run a feckin' mile from.
EVIL is that thing that makes you wake in a cold sweat from a dream?.....once in a lifetime.

I remember his essay on humor. Humor is per se diabolic, according to Baudelaire. Any questions left?

He took high dosages, of hash and opium. This attitude makes one paranoid. (I think you'll find examples among your friends from the 70's, Roger)

The belief system of a paranoid man gotta be heavy, lotta devils and daemons and succubi included.

Scorates was right. Sheila is wrong.

Baudelaire was an Absinthe drinker. No flies on him, it's an insect repellant.

Case rests Your Honour

That's not much. All of the artists at this time in Paris were drinking Absinthe. And Laudanum. But to put a quarter of an ounce of hash into a cup of coffee and drink it - that's really something else.

La Fée Verte

It causes you to halucinate

It has thujone in it, which is a component of wormwood. In very high doses, thujone can be toxic. It is a GABA (Gamma-aminobutyric acid) inhibitor, meaning it blocks GABA receptors in the brain.

Not only that it is 75% alchohol, makes whiskey look like a kiddies fruit shoot. Not your liver's best friend.

Good for a sore throat though, it doesn't cure it, it just gives you something worse to think about.

Evil is four fifths of Elvis and Live backwards

Richard Dawkins says that you need a religious belief to turn good people into evil people. And the evidence shows that he isn't too far from the truth on that one.

But if you really must know Albert Pike and Lynn Picknett think that Lucifer is a good chap. Both of them have said so.

i wouldn't be too sure about that Eginolf...

... Evil with a capital 'E' is something we don't meet or read about every day...it goes way beyond our ken, it goes way beyond this time and this dimension as we know it.

I get the gist of that argument, for sure. I think that if Evil with a capital E does exist, then the above would come the closest so far to describing how I might understand it to be. But I don't properly understand it, and certainly can't define it. Nevertheless, that paragraph resonated with me, particularly the reference to dimensions and realms, and I can relate to those of sort of fears, whether they happen to be rational or not.

But having previously said it was a good question, I now wonder if I really want to get entangled with it, as stated above. Apart from anything else, unless one has either a very strong religious or anti-religious conviction - and I have neither - it's hard to express one's thoughts about it properly.

great articulating sheila...
i agree...i also agree that it permeates this dimensions as well...

I guess by now folk know what i think on the notion of evil is a given. I go out from what Jesus sez. If ya don't abide by all the commandments HE then encapsulated into 2 commands, thou shalt love ME with all yer heart + soul, and yer neighbor as yer self.

Methinks a broader concept of evil is the notion of sin, we consciously commit, 'cuz its anything that transgresses the laws set down by God, that are applicable to all mankind. The interestin' thing is evil existed in the world long before mankind showed up, that was the defiant rebellion of Lucifer who is so beloved in so many esoteric circles.

This is bizarre yes? why would rational folk prefer a loser like Lucifer than a winner like Jesus? The only thing Lucifer can offer ya is hellfire + damnation for eternity, what's so positive with that? Jesus offers folk eternal bliss just by abidin' by HIS commands to love each other as we should love Jesus. Its a clear cut distinction as to what ïs evil, yes? If ya live for mammon + lucifer, ya don't live for Jesus, its that simple. Either Jesus is the reason everything ya do in life is for HIS glorification, if not, its a clear indication yer definitely against all that Jesus stands for.

The evil comes from this conscious decision NOT to love Jesus. To some this may sound cruel + heartless on the part of Jesus, but, HE gave everybody the free will to not love HIM. This gives Satan + Lucifer every opportunity to lure ya to hell with yer free will leading ya to yer own perdition. When VAM sez, she don't believe this scenario, she is takin' a huge gamble, yes? If she is told at her judgement by Jesus, sorry VAM, ya bet on a sure loser. Is Jesus to be held responsible for a conscious choice she made herself? Does that make VAM on par with Hitler? no, it means she will be treated on the same terms Hitler was offered when he was on the planet, namely, follow in the footsteps of Jesus, or Lucifer. There is no straddle-path, its a free will choice path ya gotta make every day of yer life.

Evil exists out of this free will scenario 'cuz folk choose the life path they wanna follow. When folk attach themself to a group of like-minded Luciferians like the mafia, they have a false sense of security when they are here on the planet. Come time for their judgement, that sense of security vanishes. Some folk can't understand why God tolerates so much evil in the world, the answer is elementary dear Watson, out of desperation folk of a lesser evil proclivity will see the errors of their ways, see the example of those who lead a non-evil life style and seek Jesus.

Jesus said, nobody comes to the Father except thru ME. If its that easy, which it is, to avoid an evil-sinful life style, evil can only exist 'cuz those who perp it want it that way. Satan has been placed on earth to test the free will choosing ability of folk. How else can ya know the difference of good or evil if ya don't also accept the consequences, ya do somethin' evil ya get plagued with a sense of guilt. There is no stand in the middle + do nuthin', that means ya automagically rejected the path to follow Jesus. The defiance stance has already been played out by Lucifer, and ya see where that got him.

Can evil be found in nature? Or is it primarily a construct of man?

I'm beginning to believe that it is man made. I just can't think of anything in nature that I would call inherently evil.

Voodoo Queen Marie LaVeux
her grave stone above
you place three xxx on her grave on its side, in the hopes that Laveau's spirit will grant them a wish.

She was Catholic

"In 1874 as many as twelve thousand spectators, both black and white, swarmed to the shores of Lake Pontchartrain to catch a glimpse of Marie Laveau II performing her legendary rites on St. John's Eve (June 23-24

her daughter also had the gift

Seeker brought this notion up...(Even economics isn't - but that's where my brother and I get into big arguments. Doing a lot of math and equations doesn't make a field scientific in and of itself.) They're still worth doing, even if they're not.

Roger brought the mafia up... well...I am gonna combine the 2 of them, hehehe, yep ya guessed it there is a evil punch line...

It seems a mafia don in a big city was bein' plagued by seein' his capo's + torpedoes gettin' whacked by a rival group of Islanders wantin' to carve the ganja + drug trade for themself. Well, this led to a nasty internecine battle of the streets.

So 1 night the mafia don told his head capo, we need more enforcer's start recruitin'. The next night, the capo brings in 3 specimens of lo-life he thought would fit the bill, all 3 comin' from sleazy Italian famiiies riddled wit petty punk thieves.

The 1st punk sort of lumbered into the room, he resembled Conan the barbarian down to the last mumble. The Don asked this hulk, OK, answer this question satisfactorily and we can put ya to work. How much is 2 +2, and no guessin', capeesh? Duh, yer da boss, I say its tree. The Don tells the capo, the guy has the right enforcer specs but he will prove to be a liability, so, waste him, he knows what we're up to.

The next punk, a wiry karate-choppin' in the air like a break dancer saunters in, The punk makes the mistake of speakin' 1st, Whaddaya want? The Don sez, play yer card right and we can use ya, OK wiza guy how mucha izza tree plusa tree, the punk snapped back, 6, OK. when do I start. The Don tells his capo, this guy knows too much, next thing ya know he'll trow us out in da street, waste, him, he's trouble from the jump.

The 3rd punk sleazed into the room, casin' it with his shifty eyes as he did. He stops in front of the don and just stand´s there starin' him in the eyes. The Don is really impressed with this greaseball. OK, punk if yer any good we can use ya, How much is 2 + 2 and no guessin', the punk pauses for a second and comin' a bit closer to the Don in an almost conspiratorial whisper, anything ya want it to be.

The Don sez, put him to work, that's the kinda guy we need.

In this lil' episode where economics are the only thing on the Don's mind, the problem of makin' the equations work to his advantage meant he had to find folk willin' to do whatever evil deed he sent them out to do,

Roger, thinks just 'cuz a sleazbucket mafiosa claims to be a Catholic is a real NO-Brainer. Jesus already spelled out the ground rules, that means love Jesus with all yer might, so, does orderin' folk to be demised equate with lovin' + followin' every precept Jesus sez ya gotta follow?

For starters that mafiosa will have to do a serious repentance + mortification for all of his sins in order to come back into the State of Grace. Just sayin' yer a Catholic like Sean M does is a mere play to the galleries. The proof is in the behavior of that person. Now, if that mafiosa repents, and sez he wants to spend the rest of his life workin' in a Hindu slum like Mother Theresa did, his sayin he's a Catholic takes on credibility, yes?

louvian's example of a chicken bones reader as being Catholic is another NO Brainer. I'd like louvian to show me where in Catholic liturgical ceremony, rite-ritual ya use any object not sanctified and used universally in every Catholic Church. Her excuse is, its a local 'thang', yeah sure. just like Sean Manchester's local catholic 'thang'. It seems louvian is interpreting what is considered cathoic for herself, just like San does.

The kicker here is, once this burger king mentality mojo of, 'have it your way' type of heretical apostasy sets in, that constitutes evil from the Curia's way of lookin' at it. The evil comes in the form of willful defiance. It'd be more ethical of louvian and all folk who wanna do a a burger king 'thang' and have it their way, by doin' what Luther did and makin' a clean break.

Luther was excommunicated, al Protestants today are in apostasy, yes? IMHO its evil to subvert what is not yers to subvert, namely the Church which is being guided and shepherded by the Curia. If Cathoics are upset with a Papal dictate, they are free to vote with their feet, but if in their ultimate stupidity think they are still covered by the Catholic Church over a matter of equivocation, a point in mind is the Bishop who told Patrick Kennedy to take a hike. Ya ain't a Catholic if ya support abortion. patrick can't receive Communion, if he does it in a sneaky manner, that will only make matters worse for him, 'cuz in effect, he wants Jesus to make an exception to the rule for him.

If Patrick sneaks Communion in under this bann, he has violated the 1st Commandment by putting a false god of abortion before his total love for Jesus. In the eyes of the Curia that is an extremely evil thing to do.

... and Shel Silverstein must have met her:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtdQiOPRDfA&feature=PlayList&p=6817E546E9AF16E0&index=11

( dont care about Bare)

Sheila confessed;



That's a starting point.

lovuian,

Not sure if you know, but "drinking the koolaid" is in reference to the Jonestown mass suicide. "To accept an argument or philosophy wholeheartedly or blindly" and usually to ones detriment or demise.

I suspect the megalomaniac Jim Jones had the same look of "evil" in his eyes as did Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz when I looked close into theirs at a social function. Their physical "aura" (pardon me) was not comfortable to be in. Intelligent? Both vastly are but it's superseded by tremendous arrogance.

Maybe one valid concept of "evil" can be "anti-life" and not in the survival sense of eat or be eaten, kill or be killed, but conscious and cold self aggrandizement at the cost of innocents.

Sheila's right, there's something beyond human behavior, cause and effect and that whatever has been named variously in many cultures throughout history.

Quite so.

Refer to my cyber up-chucking below in the Highgate thread. My now adult children will verify me wholly but one will most likely have to ply them with drink. We rarely if ever this discuss now. In fact, all comers to the story in detail usually back out quickly.

Which is wise.

I have encountered it once in my life, i don't know how it got through or where it came from, i didn't stick around long enough to form the question...call me coward, call me stupid....call me still here to not tell the tale.

I call that Wise.

Wise as like in admonishing hubby not to partake of agarics. The muscarin content varies widely from one to another and all are chock full of other potent and permanent brain damaging alkaloids. I've heard some terrible stories in my time from ones who dared.

amen.

Seeker brought up some good ideas, and here is a fella landsman with a similar outlook...

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession -

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it . It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina). Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events....Terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide.) We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit.

If not, then just discard it.... No one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

My Best Regards, Honestly and Respectfully,

Ben Stein

SO, folks, the notion of evil seems to revolve around denigrating God + Jesus in a myriad of forms, IMHO. That's why we were given the 10 Commandments, so that we can survive and not succumb to evil.

If ya notice the 1st Commandment is 1st 'cuz God sez so, and that's perfectly OK with me.