Arcadia Discussion Zone

This is and maybe my first and last post here. I mention this because my own researches lie elsewhere but I came across this serendipitously. For more information please visit my web site at
http://www.247website.co.uk/

I found an intriguing anagram of the phrase when surfing for Latin anagram finders. Following up the resulting phrase led me on something of a mystery trip, the result of which you can read on the web site.

I'm not saying it's undoubtedly true but it is nevertheless at least as likely, if not more so, in my opinion, than some of the outlandish theories being dished up for public consumption.

I shall watch this space with great interest to see what others think of my research. Thanks to Andy for his encouragement.

John Collins

Thank you for that John, I found that a well written, plauseable & interesting article, especially since one of the figures has his foot on a "source".



Also, might I just add that I found your web site about the Gravity Wheel much more interesting and will be visiting it in depth later today...

Sheila

Thank you, John, I read that with great interest, and will return to it. I linked to the village you referred to. I agree that it is a plausible interpretation, if one takes an anagrammatic approach.

But the question these arguments pose in my mind is, why should one look for a concealed anagram in the phrase in the first place? Does the phrase not make sufficient sense when read literally, and particularly in the context of paintings and sculpture depicting a tomb in a pastoral setting, an earthly paradise, sometimes with a skull shown as well?

Is there a danger, perhaps, in seeking meaning that might not be there? Do the words themselves not carry enough meaning, arranged as they are?

But I understand the point made above in response about the "source" by the small rock. But I see this as a veiled allusion to the underground stream, which also connects back to Arcadia.

None of this is exactly clear in my mind.

Sorry not to be able to offer more coherent thoughts on your interesting article; it deserves a more informed response. Hopefully you'll get plenty of feedback as other time zones wake up during the day.

Thank you Sheila and Richard for your kind words.

Richard, I understand your point that the phrase does not have to be an anagram, but as the original source of the phrase has not, as far as I'm aware, been found, my own feeling is that it does not make enough sense as a standalone thought. The grammar is suspect and there is the appearance of an unfinished comment. I think that it looks like a quotation but as there is no acknowledged source for such, I am still of the opinion that it is a phrase made up from two words which must have had some significance to the originator.

Having said that I acknowledge freely that I'm no expert on the mystery surrounding this phrase, although I do have some experience with deciphering codes and anagrams.

I would be interesting if someone was to find some confirmation of my interpretation.

John

I thought that Poussin was quoting Virgil's fifth eclogue. No anagram needed.

As I understand it "poet-Pope, Clement IX, is supposed to have suggested the phrase 'et in arcadia ego' to his friend, the painter Guercino, suggested and probably invented it when he commissioned a painting, because the phrase doesn't exist in Classical litera­ture."

John

Yes, sorry, I was quoting a "fact" repeated all over the internet without checking. >slaps wrist<

It would appear that the phrase was used in at least one painting before Poussin used it, and may well have been suggested by the Pope. Doesn't that undermine any alleged RLC "conspiracy" connection?

There is still the question of why the pope decided to commission the painting and why that phrase? Since we agree that he must have made it up, I for one, would like to know why. As an educated man, which he was to an exceptional degree, he must have known that grammatically it was wrong. To my mind it is implausible to suggest that he just made up this phrase as a memento mori. I'm sure that he regarded the resultant anagram as a good memento mori, but I'm equally sure that he was capable of a much better example.

So working backwards, and assuming that the original phrase was ‘conditae graiae’, what information might he have wished to record in ciphers for those coming after? The source of the 'Graiae’ may refer, in Latin, to the area I have described in my web site - or it might still refer, in Greek, to the legend of the old man of the sea, which was also referenced in HB & H grail. I'm out of my depth here so I'll leave it to you guys to continue or not.

I'll respond if neccessary, but for now, bye!

Yes I agree that there need be no connection with RLC and I note that some argue convicingly that in fact, while the phrase "et in arcadia ego" is a nominal phrase with no finite verb, it is a well-formed construction because substantive and copular verb omission is perfectly acceptable in Latin.

Nevertheless to me it is still a curious memento mori construction and I shall continue to keep it in mind as maybe having some duel meaning.

Thank you very much for your informative responses.

John

well I am the wild one here

so I will say the arcana that I know is a Major and Minor one in Tarot

"History bears and requires Authors of all sorts"

Camden

You are so right...

History requires verafiable facts Lov, not "all sorts of authors.." That's what got the world in this mess to begin with!

Shasta

Fear not, cogent scepticism and a sense of reality still reign down here

Camden, William (1551-1623). Camden was one of the finest of schoolmaster-historians. Born in London, he was educated at St Paul's and then at Oxford. From 1575 until 1597 he taught at Westminster School, where he became headmaster. He produced two major works—Britannia (1586), a survey of the antiquities of Britain, and Annals of Queen Elizabeth (1615), which established the view of her reign as a via media.

I have a few guys in my corner
they maybe dead but their spirit lives on

you probably have
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article393609.ece?token=null&offset=12

Some of the solutions suggest that the monument may provide the “true” location for the Holy Grail, the cup used by Christ at the last supper. Others draw in a swathe of secret societies, new age theories and legends of hidden treasure. Among the favourites are the Knights Templar, a medieval military order, and the Jacobites, supporters of the restoration of a Catholic to Britain’s throne.

The explanation supported by Bletchley concentrates on a mixture of mathematical and historical analysis. Anson is thought to have been associated with Freemasonry and to have been a member of the Priory of Sion, as was Poussin. The priory claimed links to the Knights Templar and believed that Jesus was not a divine figure. Priory members were persecuted for this heresy.

By a process of substituting one letter for another, the inscription “translates” as “Jesus H defy”. The letter H has a similar sound to the Greek letter chi, the first letter of Christ. The analyst believes this could be an exhortation to the reader to deny Jesus’s divine nature.

The Latin part of the inscription, according to this solution, may be masking the message: “In Acadia go”. Acadia was the old French name for Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in modern Canada, territories seized by the British and visited by Anson. The code may thus be a veiled instruction to go to Nova Scotia.

So I guess what I'm saying it could be masking In Acadia go
which would correlate with my work on the subject

In one Indian source, a grandson son of Jesus was called Hiranya. In Sanskrit this has several meanings, and any one of them could appply to the story of this grandson.
Hiranya can be associated with something golden, such as a child with golden hair..
Hiranya can be associated with a potter's trade, as this son was secretly hidden in a potter's home for several years.
And finally the word was drawn across ancient maps of northern Britain to describe a cold land in the far north...

So I suppose Haywood and Lovuian would determine that this is a resounding positive clue that we must go to Glastonbury and seek out a potter's hut where once was hidden a fair-haired golden child?
Geesh. How could I have missed that one?

Shasta

Members are requested to return to the topic of the thread.

Just saving time, Shasta.

Whippy whippy whip...ouch!
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

(Oh God, that's 2-in-one, deviation and speaking foreign)

Here is my theory regarding the phrase 'Et in Arcadia ego':

First of all, Arcadia is the brithplace and habitation of the Greek god Pan also known as Marsyas. Note that the Shugborough monument contains a stone head which bears the likeness of Pan.

Guercino's painting, "The Flaying of Marsyas by Apollo" was contemporary with his other work "The Shepherds of Arcadia" (Poussin's version of this theme is a remake of Guercino's original).

In "The Flaying of Marsyas by Apollo" we see the same pair of shepherds painted in "The Shepherds of Arcadia". This is telling us that the sarcophagus containing the inscription "Et in Arcadia Ego" is to be found in the cave where Marsyas was flayed by Apollo, which is near Arcadia. Note that the Shugborough monument is set within a stone arch which appears like an entrance to a cave, carved to look natural and wild.

So part of solving the Shugborough inscription is knowing exactly where the cave of Marsyas is located. To know more about the location of this cave, please visit the following website:
http://shugborough.info/chapters.php?id=15

Letter by George Sand to Gustave Flaubert

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/f/flauber ... ter41.html

Et in Arcadia ego, you know, I love you, dear friend brother, and bless you with all my heart.

[snip]

Gustave Flaubert's Temptation of St. Anthony

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tempta ... _(Flaubert)

[snip]

http://priory-of-sion.com/psp/id17.html

1817
Jean Pierre Jacques Auguste de Labouisse-Rochefort, Les Amours, A Éléonore, recueil D’élégies divisé en Trois Livres.
– containing the phrase Et In Arcadia Ego on the frontispiece in both editions of the book (undoubtedly being a reference to the group of poets called The Arcadian Academy that were formed in Italy in 1690).
– Jean Pierre Jacques Auguste de Labouisse-Rochefort married Eleonore Musard de Saint-Michel in 1802 in Toulouse (a composer of sonnets).

1832
Jean Pierre Jacques Auguste de Labouisse-Rochefort, Voyages à Rennes-les-Bains, containing the opening words "From your happy Alphaeus, Oh darling Arethusa!" (possibly written in 1803). Labouisse-Rochefort compared the landscape of Rennes-les-Bains with Arcadia.

1832
Jean Pierre Jacques Auguste de Labouisse-Rochefort becomes accepted as a member of The Arcadian Academy - in a "Letter of thanks to the Arcadian Academy of Rome" published on 16 September at Castelnaudary, he wrote:

"A Shepherd of Arcady by the gentle inclination of my heart, I could not help but want to be a member of this illustrious Arcadian Academy. I was therefore delighted to receive the happy news that the Arcadians have deigned to admit me to membership..."

1834
Jean Pierre Jacques Auguste de Labouisse-Rochefort, Mélanges politiques et littéraires, faisant suite au Voyage à Rennes-les-Bains (Labouisse-Rochefort was a Royalist).

[snip]

BTW, there is a connection here.

http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/AC ... 1008030392

One direct ancestor Michel Muzard lost a fortune and made claims against the French government - I've put some of his claim papers on my web site - but I don't know the outcome of the the claim - he was assisted by his son-in-law August de Labouisse Rochefort - I know that the claim went on for many years and that he also lost lands in Cuba and possibly even Louisiana.

The second question regards the Chopin side - to clarify - my 4th great grandfather was Jean Francois Chopin - born 1774 in Mauritius - When Jacques Chopin, his father died, his mother Jeanne Eluard re-married - to Michel Muzard. I think his origins are Paris France, but he had estates in the Wets Indies and LA as mentioned.
Jeanne Chopin (Eluard) was also a woman of substance but 2 oceans away!

they married and had a daughter Eleanor Muzard who married a Frenchman - Labouisse - the two of them were poets who wrote and had published many books romance and some political works.

They lived in Toulouse France and when Michel Muzard lost his fortunes he lived there also.

[snip]

Arcadian Academy of Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Arcadia

Queen Christina of Sweden and the Porta Magica
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/queen_christina.html

Sir Philip Sidney and the theme of Arcadia
http://www.bartleby.com/213/1609.html

http://www.ljhammond.com/phlit/2005-11b.htm

There were a few people in England, however, who continued to entertain Hermetic ideas. One of these was Sir Philip Sidney, the leader of a group of “intellectual courtiers” who studied under John Dee, the astrologer, Hermetist, and mathematician. (I doubt Shakespeare was one of these “intellectual courtiers”; he wasn’t on good terms with Sidney.) When the Hermetist Giordano Bruno visited England, Sidney was friendly and receptive. (Bruno and Shakespeare didn’t cross paths, as far as I know.) Bruno dedicated one of his books to Sidney. When Sidney died in 1586, he was working on a translation of a book by Mornay, the Hermetic-Protestant writer mentioned above; Yates says that Mornay was “known to Sidney as a friend and was undoubtedly his favorite theologian.”19 Sidney died while fighting to establish a state in the southern Netherlands, a state based on the principle of religious toleration.

http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/hermes.html

-H. J. Rose, A Handbook of Greek Mythology p. 146.
"...We must not forget the possibility that the Arcadians found [HERMES] in Arcadia when they arrived there, and that his name is not Greek at all. Certain it is that he was often worshipped under the form of a mere stone [herma]..."

[snip]

HERMES, son of Zeus and Maia, was born in a cave on Mount Cyllene in ARCADIA.

[snip]

HERMES THE SHEPHERD appointed by his half-brother Apollo, after the theft and return of Apollo's sacred cattleherd (from Pieria in Macedonia). Apollo also gave Hermes some prophetic gifts as well.

[snip]

http://www.shepherdsofarcadia.com/html/ ... IA_EGO.php

The ‘Arcadian’ theme became prominent with artists and scholars in Italy during the Renaissance.

Cosimo de Medici, the wealthy ruler of Florence sent agents throughout Europe in search of ancient manuscripts.
In 1400 A.D. he purchased the manuscript ‘Corpus Hermeticum’ that consisted of 15 Hermetic writings..

He founded the first Academies to study Greek philosophy. He was instrumental that Greek was taught at the university of Florence. Similar academic institutions sprang up throughout Italy.

The theme, the underground stream of Arcadia, appears so often that the Academies were labeled Arcadian.

Rene d’Anjou in 1449 A.D. staged a curious type of theater called Pas d’Armes of the Shepherdess. The spectacle was a fusion of Arcadian philosophy, the Round Table and the Holy Grail Romance.

The theme of Pas d’Armes the Shepherdess of Rene d’Anjou is continued in the paintings of Guercino and Poussin.

[snip]