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 Post subject: Re: Grasset d'Orcet
PostPosted: 27 Oct 2009 12:49 am 
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Besides Grasset's discourse into the arcana of Rabelesian jabberwock, Seeker said somethin' that really floors me, coming from a professor.... since English is one of the poorer languages when it comes to orthography and pronunciation, making it one of the hardest to learn. At least other languages spell words the way they say them.

I seriously beg to differ. Only esperanto is easier to learn, since it only has 18 grammar rules. Spelling is simplified, due to a given classification like a noun always ends with the same vowel, just like a verb or adjective have there own separate vowel endings. Seeker should be tickled pink to know a Lithuanian-Polish Jew, Zamenhof, created it.

I have 2 daughters who think learning Japanese is cool. Ya see, when Japs translate their Jap ideation directly to anglo, ya get the most fantastic we speak engrish concoctions imaginable. An anglo person could never dream up the things orientals take for granted. There are 2 alphabets, the pictogaph and the latinized script. The latinized script is not exact due to tonal differences, just like in Chinese. Ya need to use musical notation if ya ever expect to convert an oriental language by putting individual letters of a scale like Gregorian notation and sing the language in question.

The English language needs 45 unigue characters to repro the 45 unique phonemes of English. I asked Professors at Lund U my wife went to college with when they all started out, how many unique phonemes are required to match the unique phonemes of Swedish and they all said, nobody has done a definitive study as of yet, so nobody knows. I seriously doubt the French know how many unique phonemes they need.

Germans in Germany using Hoch Deutsch know exactly. The same can't be said for any regional German dialect, Hollandic or Switzerlandic 'cuz the last 2 sound so close to Yiddish intonation, but not Yiddish meaning for a given sound. Most languages are not as 1 to 1 as Seeker imagines. Spanish surely isn't, Arabic certainly isn't. Italy has so many dialects, even the Florentines can't say they speak the Italian of Dante.

Luther chose Hanoverian German to be a standard due to its clarity. Just look at what happened in the U.S there is now a broadcast standard so designated for precisely the same reason, i has to be distinctively clear. Speaking like a Mississippi sharecropper will never make it if ya expect a job as a broadcaster. Glaswegian will never replace Beeb broadcast English.

I will give Seeker credit for being aware of the inputs Swift made for the English language, the Irish taught him well.

BTW, This quote puzzles me,,,Judaism teaches that Hebrew was the primordial language, the language of Adam and Eve in the Garden, the language of the angels... IMHO the TOWER of BABEL incident tells me otherwise. Mike Tsarion sez ancient hebrews learned their language from Irish survivors from Atlantis, he sez they predate the Hebrews. So now Seeker will have to duke it out with Tsarion on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Grasset d'Orcet
PostPosted: 27 Oct 2009 5:22 am 
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I have 2 daughters who think learning Japanese is cool. Ya see, when Japs translate their Jap ideation directly to anglo, ya get the most fantastic we speak engrish concoctions imaginable. An anglo person could never dream up the things orientals take for granted. There are 2 alphabets, the pictogaph and the latinized script. The latinized script is not exact due to tonal differences, just like in Chinese. Ya need to use musical notation if ya ever expect to convert an oriental language by putting individual letters of a scale like Gregorian notation and sing the language in question.


Japanese has 3 alphabets, Kanji, hiragana, katakana.
Vietnamese has six tones, but at least you can read it. Sometimes it does sound like singing. Patterns within language vary as well. While I don't speak Vietnamese my friends always tease me that my tone is higher and I speak in circular patterns + it sounds like every statement I make sounds like a question because my tone goes up at the end. I always put my friends to sleep because they say my voice is very lyrical. Maybe they are trying to say something else. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Grasset d'Orcet
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2009 11:16 pm 
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Rain, that's interesting ya mentioned 3 alphabets, 'cuz when I looked at their course literature there was only 2 they had to come to grips with. Is the 3rd set aside for ceremonial or religious purposes? The teacher they have is native Jap married to a Swede. She still has problems saying some Swedish phonemes even after being here 40 years.

She has the disadvantage I have as well of being subjected to a halfway 'tween Danish + Swedish called Skoansk dialect, and the intermittent reinforcement ya get from broadcast media, if ya ever bother to listen to it. I don't watch Swedish TV, it is appallingly bad. Swedish radio is so boring I listen to Danish radio, even tho' I don't understand anything they say. It sounds like somebody is on the verge on barfing yet manages to suppress the urge, the entire time.

It sounds like a steady stream of ulf-ralph-barf-gag-choke-aborted sneeze-ulf-ralph, etc. I guess the language got fixated in a distant ancient past during mating call rituals. I apologize to Frotte if she is reading this, its the language she uses daily to deal with things Danish.

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 Post subject: Re: Grasset d'Orcet
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2009 11:53 pm 
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Katakana is an alphabet for foreign words. So for instance my name was written in Katakana, but by chance it had and equivalent in Kanji.
Lets take my name on this Forum if I was to go to Japan they would spell my name in Katakana because it would considered a foreign word and proper noun, even though there is a kanji translation of "rain" in Japanese. Do you understand? It's a confusing, I know.
If I was to write JAKE in Japanese it would be JA-KE in Katakana but something like RICHARD would be RI-CH-A-RU-DO in katakana.
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Katakana (片仮名, カタカナ or かたかな?) is a Japanese syllabary, one component of the Japanese writing system along with hiragana,[2] kanji, and in some cases the Latin alphabet. The word katakana means "fragmentary kana", as the katakana scripts are derived from components of more complex kanji.

Katakana are characterized by short, straight strokes and angular corners, and are the simplest of the Japanese scripts.[3]

There are two main systems of ordering katakana: the old-fashioned iroha ordering, and the more prevalent gojūon ordering.

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 Post subject: Re: Grasset d'Orcet
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2009 1:33 am 
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Rain,

When it comes to pronunciation, my take is they all sound similar from a phoneme point of view. For instance how many pictograph characters are needed to duplicate every unique phoneme in the Jap language? It would be impossible to have 3 separate sets of phonemes and for a person coming from the outside of Jap culture to get a handle on what is being said.

How would a small child be able to pick out, say, a danger warning if there were 3 separate alphabets systems to be aware of? When my dau and her hubby were in Japan for a world Esperanto congress, they saw 3 signs in many places, Jap pictograph, jap latinized, then English or ingrish, depending on circumstances. They took loads of the engrish stuff 'cuz they were truly priceless.

My 2 dau's have lots of Jap pop music with groups doing thee best to sing english text. When they create their own song then translate it themself, well, it takes on a whole new dimension, from a language point of view. Those ingrish texts songs are priceless as well. I wonder if another Jap would be able to re-decode the ingrish back to conventional Jap so that the original meaning comes thru.

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 Post subject: Re: Grasset d'Orcet
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 7:19 am 
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The Angelic Society is principally described by Michel Lamy in his work Jules Verne, Initie et Initiateur, based on extrapolations of previous work by cryptographer Claude Sosthène Grasset d'Orcet.

An example of La langue des Oiseaux

Quote:
The way this all actually works with Rabelais’s texts can be seen from the following example, Grasset d’Orcet’s decoding of the genealogy of Gargantua (Ch 1). Grasset d’Orcet takes a section of text, picks out certain words of significance using some sort of ‘grid’ (whose underlying algorithms are not revealed), then shuffles them around a bit until they form eight-syllable lines all ending (more or less) in ‘L’ sounds (again, according to some mysterious algorithm to which we are not a party); he then smooshes the words together phonetically and ‘translates’ them into French by resolving the sounds differently and altering the vowels.

Retournant à nos moutons, ie vous diz que par un don souverain de dieu nous a esté reservée l’antiquité & genealogie de Gargantua, plus entière que nulle aultre, de dieu ie ne parle, car il ne me appartient, aussy les diables (ce sont les caffars) se y opposent. Et fut trouvée par Iean Audeau, en un pré qu’il avoit près l’arceau gualeau au dessoubz de l’Olive, tirant à Marsay. Duquel faisant lever les fossez, touchèrent les piocheurs de leurs marres, un grand tombeau de bronze long sans mesure: car oncques n’en trouvèrent le bout, parce qu’il entroit trop avant les escluses de Vienne. Icelluy ouvrans en certain lieu signé au dessus d’un goubelet, à l’entour du quel estoit escript en lettres Ethrusques, HIC BIBITUR, trouvèrent neuf flaccons en tel ordre qu’on assiet les quilles en Guascoigne. Des quelz celluy qu’on my lieu estoit, couvroit un gros, gras, grand, gris, ioly, petit, moisy, livret, plus mais non mieux sentent que roses.

Using the grid method, this gives:

Jean Audeau, pré arceau gualeau,
Sous olive, Narsay tirant. airain sépulcre.
Signé Goubelet. Ci l’on boit, latin.
Neuf flacons quillés, mi base livret
Gros, gras, grand, gris, joli,
Petit, moysi, sentant plus ne mieux roses.

Which in Lanternois means:

Janus, dieu pairé arche Gaule,
Seul vénère Saturne, Touraine sépulcre.
Signe: Goubelet, Colon boit, loi tient.
Haine au Faulcon! colombe ose lève haste.
Guerre, gare, Guérin, doit grege loup.
Petit musicien, tient Apollon, marsye.

Which, roughly translated, gives:

‘Janus, double god of the kingdom of the Gauls, the sepulchre of Touraine, reveres none but Saturn, under the sign of the dove that drinks from a goblet. It has this law: hatred of the falcon! May the dove dare to raise its standard, the wolf must keep his flock from war with Guérin. Marsyas takes Apollo for a little musician.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francois_Rabelais

Quote:
Later he [Rabelais] left the monastery to study at the University of Poitiers and University of Montpellier. In 1532, he moved to Lyon, one of the intellectual centres of France, and not only practiced medicine but edited Latin works for the printer Sebastian Gryphius. As a doctor, he used his spare time to write and publish humorous pamphlets which were critical of established authority and stressed his own perception of individual liberty. His revolutionary works, although satirical, revealed an astute observer of the social and political events unfolding during the first half of the sixteenth century.


Quote:
It is in the first book where Rabelais writes of the Abbey of Thélème, built by the giant Gargantua. It pokes fun at the monastic institutions, since his abbey has a swimming pool, maid service, and no clocks in sight.

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 Post subject: Re: Grasset d'Orcet
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 10:22 pm 
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Out of interest Roscoe, have you tried applying this algorithm to the "Sot Pecheur" ?
Just a wild guess. Thanks for the info, I might try myself if I get chance.
Regards
Nic
Edited to add :-
Quote:
(whose underlying algorithms are not revealed)

Forget that one then :(


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