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 Post subject: Did Jesus Survive Crucifixion?
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 4:15 am 
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http://markmason.net/ch4ex2.htm


Did Jesus survive the crucifixion?
Did he live in India to age 100?

From Ch. 4 of In Search of the Loving God by Mark Mason
. . .
Extraordinary as this story of Jesus visiting India is, some have taken it even further. Holger Kersten, in his book Jesus Lived in India, extends the story to even more incredible heights, backed up by even more sketchy evidence. We will just very briefly look at his theory, before moving on to better established knowledge about Jesus.

Kersten uses evidence from the Shroud of Turin (of much challenged authenticity) to maintain that Jesus was not dead, in the modern sense of the word, when taken from the cross, but just in a deep coma, and that, in the tomb, he rose from the teeth of death and made a remarkably quick recovery. If he could miraculously heal others, it seems reasonable to suppose he could do the same for himself. Indeed, Jesus inferred he would do this, when he said, referring to his body, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (John 2:19).

After this Jesus appeared to his disciples a few times, then left with his mother Mary to travel gradually, over a period of sixteen years, back to India. The by now elderly Mary died on the way, but Jesus continued on to Kashmir, and lived and taught there till he was about a hundred years old. There is even speculation that he attended the Fourth Buddhist Council, held in Kashmir toward the end of the first century A.D., and helped inspire the important reforms made to Buddhism at this council.

The second century Church Father Irenaeus wrote a celebrated book called Against Heresies, which was crucial in establishing church orthodoxy. In this book he claimed Jesus lived to be an old man, and remained in "Asia" with his disciple John, and others, up to the times of the Emperor Trajan, before finally dying. Trajan's reign began in 98 A.D., at which time Jesus would have been just over one hundred years old. This is support, from a most unexpected quarter, for Kirsten's theory.

Kirsten himself uses place names, age-old traditions, and claims in certain documents, to give credence to this theory. The story is that after Jesus appeared to his disciples, he went to Damascus in Syria, where the Jews had been disliked since the Maccabean wars, but where the Essenes had a spiritual center, and where he would be safer than in Palestine. He was still there about two years later when he dramatically appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, in order to win him over from being the main persecutor of the Way to being the main proponent of it (Acts 9:1-31).

About five kilometers outside Damascus there is to this day a place called Mayuam-i-isa, which means "The place where Jesus lived," and the Persian historian Mir Kawand has cited several sources claiming Jesus lived and taught in Damascus after his crucifixion. These Persian sources claim that Jesus, while in Damascus, received a letter from the King of Nisibis (now Nusaybin near Edessa in Turkey), asking Jesus to cure him of a disease. He sent Thomas to cure him, and later visited there himself, before leaving to travel north west into the Kurdish territory in the north of Anotolia. The apocryphal Acts of Thomas relates how Jesus suddenly appeared there at the marriage festivities of a princess at the court of the King of Andrapa. From there Jesus and Mary apparently journeyed eastward over the old Silk Road, where certain place names such as "House of Mary" (near Ephesos on the west coast of modern Turkey), supposedly suggest their stay. As Jesus gradually moved through Persia, he increasingly became known as "Yuz Asaf," meaning "leader of the healed." Tradition says he preached throughout Persia, and converted vast numbers to his creed. Accounts such as Agha Mustafai's Jami-uf-Tawarik (Vol II) claim Yuz Asaf and Jesus were one and the same man, and the court poet of Emperor Akbar of India later backed this up when he called Jesus Ai Ki Nam-i to: Yus o Kristo, or "Thou whose name is Yuz or Christ."

The Acts of Thomas describe the stay of Jesus and Thomas in Taxila (now in Pakistan) at the court of King Gundafor in the twenty-sixth year of his rule (47 A.D.). East of Taxila is a small town called Mari ("Murree" in English) near the modern border with Kashmir. In Mari there is a grave which has been maintained and honored as far back as anyone can remember, called Mai Mari da Asthan, "The Final Resting Place of Mother Mary." The grave is orientated east-west in Jewish fashion, rather than the Muslim north-south. Moreover, the area was under Hindu rule in Jesus' time, and the Hindus cremated their dead and scattered their ashes, so had no need for graves. When Islam took over this area in the seventh century A.D., all "infidel" monuments were destroyed, but they recognized this grave as being a relic of a "People of the Book," Christian or Israelite, and respected it. The grave continues to be honored as the final resting-place of Jesus' mother by Muslims, who consider Jesus one of the most important prophets of Islam. The Qur'an states that Jesus (Issa or Isa) was saved from dying on the cross, which it considered an accursed death, unworthy of him (Deut 21:23), and has many other references to the "prophet Issa," supposedly to correct the distorted image in the writings of his followers. The most incredible of these is that Muhammad believed Jesus' prophecy of the coming of the "Spirit of truth" (John 16:12-14) referred to him.

After this Jesus supposedly traveled on to Kashmir, from where he made periodic journeys to other parts of India. There is a grave in the middle of Srinagar's old town which many people believe to be the grave of Jesus himself. The building later erected around the grave stone is called Rozabal, meaning "tomb of a prophet." Above the passage to the actual burial chamber is an inscription explaining that Yuz Asaf entered the valley of Kashmir many centuries before, and that his life was dedicated to the search for the truth. Within the inner burial chamber there are two long gravestones, the larger for Yuz Asaf, the smaller for an Islamic saint of the fifteenth century. Both gravestones point north-south in keeping with Muslim custom, but they are in fact only covers: the actual graves are in a crypt under the floor of the building. There is a tiny opening through which one can look into the true burial chamber below, and see that the sarcophagus containing the earthly remains of Yuz Asaf points east-west in keeping with Jewish custom. This clearly indicates Yuz Asaf was neither an Islamic saint nor a Hindu.

The Indian Mogul emperor Akbar, in the sixteenth century, planned to unite India, then split into religious factions, with a single religion that would contain the quintessence of all the various faiths as its one "Truth." Akbar evidently selected at least one saying of Jesus to inscribe on the wall of his Victory Gate to the central mosque of the city he built for himself, for (in 1900) this saying, unknown in the west, and supposedly deriving from Jesus' stay in India, was found on a piece of wall amid the ruins of Fatehpur Sikri, the city he built 25 km from Agra:


Said Jesus, on whom be peace! The world is a bridge,
pass over it but build no house there. He who hopeth
for an hour, hope for eternity; the world is but an hour,
spend it in devotion; the rest is worth nothing.


Since Akbar had in common with Jesus a vision of one religion uniting the best from all religions, perhaps, if he had known about it, he would also have had Jesus' statement of this vision inscribed where the public could read it:


I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring
them also. They too will hear my voice, and there shall
be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16 AT)


The Prophet Isaiah, we saw earlier, also had this vision of the whole earth united and at peace under one God (Isa 2:1-5). It is worth noting that this verse of Jesus', apart from being a vision of religious unity, is also suggestive of the fact that Jesus traveled and taught outside Palestine.

What are Christians to make of this supposed return of Jesus to India after the crucifixion? Despite the evidence for it being thin, perhaps we could, at least, ask this question: what if the inevitable further research into the theory does authenticate it? What if the remains of "Yuz Asaf" in Shrinagar are exhumed and are well enough preserved to show evidence of crucifixion? My own belief is that this should not adversely affect Christian faith. Whether Jesus actually physically died on the cross is a minor point. The important thing is that he suffered for the sins of all, and indeed, if he didn't physically die he would have suffered much more (have died a worse "death") due to the pain of recovering, than he would have if he had just quickly died and been miraculously raised to life. Later versions of the Nicene Creed say Jesus "descended into hell" for three days, which would be a good description of such an ordeal of recovery from terrible wounds while lying in a grave. In either case the Bible makes it clear that Jesus ended up very much alive in his original body, and that his body was not subject to decay during the ordeal (Acts 2:31). What is possible is that he was what we would now call "clinically dead" for a while, and that, like many patients in modern hospitals, he was restored to life. We do not, however, any longer think of "clinically dead" as really being dead - only when the brain has decayed so much as to lose its ability to function do we pronounce a person dead. And, as we have just seen, the Bible says Jesus' body was not subject to any decay. It is also worth noting that Jesus said there would be no miraculous sign to demonstrate his authority, except the sign of the prophet Jonah:


For as Johah was three days and three nights in the belly
of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and
three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matt 12:40)



And Jonah did not die inside the fish before he emerged.
Jesus may have visited India, and he may even have returned there after his crucifixion. We just don't know for sure yet, one way or the other. The fact that there is room for speculation about this, and that it can't be ruled out, shows just how little we actually know about Jesus, and the importance of keeping an open mind about him and his teachings.




From: In Search of the Loving God by Mark Mason - Copyright © 1997.

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 Post subject: Michael Baigent on Crucifixion
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 4:32 am 
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Source: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/04/Could-Jesus-Have-Survived-The-Crucifixion.aspx

Could Jesus Have Survived the Crucifixion?
Was Jesus taken down from the cross, apparently lifeless but in reality unconscious, and taken to private tomb where he revived?
BY: Michael Baigent


Excerpted from 'The Jesus Papers'

How could a crucifixion have been faked? Just how could Jesus have survived? Was it possible at all to survive a crucifixion of any length of time?

Crucifixion was not so much an execution as a torturing to death. The procedure was very simple: the victim was tied, hanging to the crossbar, while his feet were supported on a block at the base of the cross. His feet were also usually tied at the block, although at least one example recovered by archaeologists reveals that a nail might be driven through each ankle. The weight of the hanging body made breathing very difficult and could be managed only by constantly pushing upwards with the legs and feet to relieve the tension in the chest. Eventually, of course, weariness and weakness overcame the ability to keep pushing. When this happened, the body slumped, breathing became impossible, and the crucified person died—by asphyxiation. This was reckoned to take about three days.


As an act of mercy—only the brutal Romans could come up with such a definition—the legs of the victim were often broken and so deprived of any strength whatsoever to maintain the weight of the body. The body would drop, and death by asphyxiation rapidly followed. We can see this in the New Testament. John reports that the legs of the two Zealots crucified beside Jesus were broken, but when they came break Jesus' legs, "he was dead already" (John 19:31-33).

Clearly it would be difficult to survive a crucifixion, but it was not impossible. Josephus, for example, reports that he came upon three of his former colleagues among a large group of crucified captives. He went to Titus asking for mercy, begging that they might be taken down. Titus agreed, and the three men were brought down from the cross. Despite professional medical attention, two of them died, but the third survived.

Could Jesus have survived just like the survivor in Josephus's report? There are traditions in Islam that say so. The Koran's statement "They did not crucify him" could as well be translated as "They did not cause his death on the cross." But the Koran is a very late text, even though it undoubtedly uses earlier documents and traditions. Perhaps more relevant for us is a statement by Irenaeus in the late second century; in a complaint about the beliefs of an Egyptian Gnostic, Basilides, he explains that this heretic taught that Jesus had been substituted during the journey to Golgotha and that this substitute, Simon of Cyrene, had died in Jesus' stead.

But if Jesus survived without being substituted, how could it have happened? Hugh Schonfield, in his The Passover Plot, suggests that Jesus was drugged—sedated on the cross such that he appeared dead but could be revived later, after he had been taken down. This is by no means such a wild idea, and it has received a sympathetic hearing. For example, in a television program on the crucifixion broadcast by the BBC in 2004 called Did Jesus Die? Elaine Pagels referred to Schonfield's book, which, she noted, suggested that Jesus "had been sedated on the cross; that he was removed quite early and therefore could well have survived." And, she concluded, "that's certainly a possibility."

There is a curious incident recorded in the Gospels that may be explained by this hypothesis: while on the cross, Jesus complained that he was thirsty. A sponge soaked in vinegar was placed on the end of a long reed and held up to him. But far from reviving Jesus, the drink from this sponge apparently caused him to die. This is a curious reaction and suggests that the sponge was soaked not in vinegar, a substance that would have revived Jesus, but rather in something that would have caused him to lose consciousness—some sort of drug, for example. And there was just this type of drug available in the Middle East.

It was known that a sponge soaked in a mixture of opium and other compounds such as belladonna and hashish served as a good anesthetic. Such sponges would be soaked in the mixture, then dried for storage or transport. When it was necessary to induce unconsciousness—for surgery, for example—the sponge would be soaked in water to activate the drugs and then placed over the nose and mouth of the subject, who would promptly lose consciousness. Given the description of the events on the cross and the rapid apparent "death" of Jesus, it is a plausible suggestion that this use of a drugged sponge was the cause. No matter how carefully a "staged" crucifixion might have been carried out (one intended for Jesus to survive), there was no way to anticipate the effect that shock might have had upon him. Crucifixion was, after all, a traumatic experience, both physically and mentally. To be rendered unconscious would reduce the effect of the trauma and thus increase the chance of survival, so the drug would have been a further benefit in that regard too.



There are some further points that are striking: John's Gospel mentions that a spear was thrust into Jesus' side and that blood came out. Taken at face value, we can conclude two things from this observation: first, that the spear was not thrust into the brain or heart and so was not necessarily immediately life-threatening. And second, that the flow of blood would seem to indicate that Jesus was still alive.

All that remained then was for Jesus to be taken down from the cross, apparently lifeless but in reality unconscious, and taken to private tomb where medicines could be used to revive him. He would then be whisked away from the scene. And this is precisely what is described in the Gospels: Luke (23:53) and Mark (15:46) report that Jesus was placed in a new tomb nearby. Matthew (27:6) adds that the tomb was owned by the wealthy and influential Joseph of Arimathea. John (19:41-42), who generally gives us so many extra details, adds that there was a garden around this tomb, implying that the grounds were privately owned, perhaps also by Joseph of Arimathea.

John also stresses that Jesus was taken down quickly and put in this new tomb. Then, in a very curious addition, he reports that Joseph of Arimathea and a colleague, Nicodemus, visited the tomb during the night and brought with them a very large amount of spices: myrrh and aloes (John 19:39). These, it is true, could be used simply as a perfume, but there could be another equally plausible explanation. Both substances have a medicinal use—most notably, myrrh has been used as an aid to stop bleeding. Neither drug is known to have a role in embalming dead bodies. Mark (16:1) and Luke (23:56) touch obliquely on this theme as well, adding to their story of the tomb the women—Mary Magdalene and Mary, "mother of James”—brought spices and ointments with them when they came to the tomb after the Sabbath had ended.

It is also curious that Jesus just happens to have been crucified next to a garden and a tomb, the latter at least owned by Joseph of Arimathea. This is all rather convenient to say the least. Could it be that the crucifixion itself was private? Perhaps in order to control witnesses to what was occurring? Luke (23:49) informs us that the crowds watching were standing at a distance. Perhaps they were kept at a distance? In fact, the description of the events of Golgotha suggests that the site of the crucifixion was actually in the Kidron valley, where there are many rock-cut tombs to this day and where is also located the Garden of Gethsemane, which may well have been the private garden involved and one with which Jesus was familiar.

But there is yet another oddity that we need to note: in the Gospel of Mark, Joseph of Arimathea is described as visiting Pilate and requesting the body of Jesus. Pilate asks if Jesus is dead and is surprised when told that he is indeed, for his demise seems very rapid to Pilate. But since Jesus is dead, Pilate allows Joseph to take the body down. If we look at the original Greek text, we see an important point being made: when Joseph asks Pilate for Jesus' body, the word used for "body" is soma. In Greek this denotes a living body. When Pilate agrees that Joseph can take the body down from the cross, the word he uses for "body" is ptoma (Mark 15:43-45). This means a fallen body, a corpse or carcass. In other words, the Greek text of Mark's Gospel is making it clear that while Joseph is asking for the living body of Jesus, Pilate grants him what he believes to be the corpse. Jesus' survival is revealed right there in the actual Gospel account.

If the writer of this Gospel had wished to hide that fact, it would have been very easy for him simply to use one word for both statements—to have both Joseph and Pilate speaking of the ptoma, the corpse. But the writer chose not to be consistent. Could this be because it was too well known a fact for him to get away with any manipulation of it? This had to wait for the translation of the New Testament from Greek into Latin: in the Latin Bible—the Vulgate—the word corpus is used by both Pilate and Joseph of Arimathea, and this simply means "body" as well as "corpse." The hiding of the secret of the crucifixion was completed.

Again, it takes only a slight shift of perspective, a standing aside from the theological dogma, to see the crucifixion in a new way. That is, to see how Jesus could very well have survived.

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 Post subject: are ya sure?
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 2:33 pm 
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an eye witness to the details, Sr Emmerich, an un-schooled woman who could rattle off the details only a biblic scholar might know saw all these events up close.

She was extremely consequent in all of her descriptions, no weird Jadyck intergalactic time + shape shifting Cassiopeians show up in her descriptions, how come? Sandy don't trust Sr Emmerich's description 'cuz it would mean Sandy has to do a complete re-think of her position.

Just look at all the other spin meisters like Gardner with his monoatomic pixie dust, Sparrowdancer's white pebbles collection, Blavatsky's spin, Many Hall's spin, the rosicru krowd's spin, the entire gnostic krowd specrtum spin, a gazillion pagan, neo-paga, wicca krowd spin.

There are so many takes + spins that negate 1 another, by default it leaves the unchanged NT description as the only reliable approach. I see all of these 'if's as building a pyramid from its apex, pinpoint top as its base then pile on theory after theory so this humongous inverted pyramid is precariously balanced on this itty-bitty, teensy-weensy,'if'.

Yep, yer right, it defies gravity, bur guess what, there is a definite solution, in fact folk have been dying to find out for 2,000 years, so who's next to die to find out?


Last edited by jakeabf on 21 Jan 2009 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 3:25 pm 
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Jake said:
Quote:
an eye witness to the details, Sr Emmerich, an un-schooled woman who could rattle off the details only a biblic scholar might know saw all these events up close.


Jake,
Sister Emmerich lived 2,000 years after Jesus. How can you claim she was an "eye-witness"? Why should anyone accept her visions over Madame Blavatsky? Edgar Casey? Sylvia Brown? Joseph Smith? Because the Church says so? I'm sorry Jake...but the "theories" about crucifixion survival are based on historical commentaries by eye-witnesses, such as the 12 visitations of Jesus after the crucifixion ...and Josephus the historian. To deny the eye-witness Biblical accounts is to deny the Bible.

The label of "spin meisters" seems best applied to you, unless you can come up with something better than Sister Emmerich's visions, 2,000 years after the fact, to rely on.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 4:59 pm 
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Sandy don't trust Sr Emmerich's description 'cuz it would mean Sandy has to do a complete re-think of her position.


:lol:


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Quote:
Sandy don't trust Sr Emmerich's description 'cuz it would mean Sandy has to do a complete re-think of her position.


You are correct. I do not trust Sr. Emmerich's descriptions. Nor do I feel I can trust your judgement.
All the best to you....but we are on very different paths in search of truth.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 6:43 pm 
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Shasta wrote:
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Sandy don't trust Sr Emmerich's description 'cuz it would mean Sandy has to do a complete re-think of her position.


You are correct. I do not trust Sr. Emmerich's descriptions. Nor do I feel I can trust your judgement.
All the best to you....but we are on very different paths in search of truth.


how many truths are there Shasta?

all of me,
paula


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2009 7:15 pm 
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how many truths are there Shasta?

Wow Paula,
That is a seriously deep statement :idea:
Regards
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Quote:
we are on very different paths in search of truth.



Quote:
That is a seriously deep statement


I believe there is One truth....but many paths....I can't make any deeply profound statements...I am just not "gifted" like so many others in this forum....
dumb blonde is what ya see....dumb blonde is what ya get...
If you want "profound" and deep, go speak with Paul Smith, or Jake. I sure can't follow any of the discussions going on in here...

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I think my efforts to introduce new topics are not going well...I think I will leave this forum..It would be better to join folks in other forums with different interests..I just can't seem to get in step here.
It's a great bunch of "intellectuals" here (when you get serious). I do admire most of you here now..

I was a member here 2 years ago and we had a great time! But I only returned to Andy's forum because I was interested in Paul Smith and greatly admired his no-nonsense approach....I don't have the kind of intense focused interest in RLC that draws you all together..
and I don't understand sister Emmerilich's relevence or contributions to these discussions..

Have fun guys...I'm taking a sabbbatical. I Might meet some aliens and shape shifters along the way..WOO WOO :P

Shasta

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I think I will leave this forum

Shasta
I hope that you are not serious? Your views, opinions and topic posts I respect highly. Please do not consider yourself to be of any less value than for instance myself ( who is certainly not to be classed as an "intellectual" ). This particular topic I have not yet had chance to read thoroughly which is why I have not replied, however it is relevant and interesting to me. As for your statement " I believe there is One truth....but many paths", sounds pretty profound to me. Hopefully we will see you return even if you feel like you need a sabbatical.
Till then :cry:
Nic


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Now Shasta can start a Paul Smith fan club. He or she (presumably she) will be the only member, of course, so being elected President should be a cinch. Shasta will be President-for-life.


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Absolutely no problem whatsoever with Osiris rising from the Dead.

Indeed some time ago following the publication of The Golden Bough it was quite politically correct to recognise Jesus Christ as being another dying-and-rising God like Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Mithras etc - the rot really set in with the publication of books like The Passover Plot and The Jesus Scroll, whereby the Divinity of Jesus Christ became transformed into Humanity with the Incarnation being demythologised.

The invention of the Bloodline Theory is a natural progression of this pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: Michael Baigent on Crucifixion
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 5:01 pm 
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Shasta wrote:
Again, it takes only a slight shift of perspective, a standing aside from the theological dogma, to see the crucifixion in a new way. That is, to see how Jesus could very well have survived.


Again, the very historicity of Jesus could have originated within the context of theological dogma - making the crucifixion/resurrection accounts serve the dogmatic belief.


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This reminds me about a book i purchased a while back in a second hand bookshop for a fiver. Its called Caesars Messiah ...... i havent got around to reading it, but as an exercise in making all kinds of scenarios from the 'evidence' .... this is just about the most far feteched i have seen. Here is a review of someone who has read it from: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm

"Joseph Atwill's, Caesar’s Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus

Ulysses Press, 2005

Reviewed by Robert M. Price

The controversial thesis of this book is that Christianity began as the opium of the Jewish people, mixed and prescribed for them by the crafty Flavian dynasty. Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian had had their fill of militant Zealotry and Sicariism. They could not bend the Jewish nationalists to their will even after a destructive war that leveled the temple of their God. No amount of torture could make Jewish prisoners deny their faith and call Caesar not only their salad but also their lord. And so Titus Caesar, with the help of his obedient lackey Josephus, devised a master deception whereby Jews should be seduced into worshipping Titus, divine son of the divine Vespasian, without knowing it, under the guise of a fictitious Jesus, divine son of a divine Father. The gospels were composed by Romans (and Roman stooges including defeated Zealot leader John of Gischala AKA John son of Zebedee) to catechize Jews into this new and false Judaism which, if they accepted it, should also lull them into a soporific pacifism convenient for Rome. The four canonical gospels and Josephus’ The Jewish War were designed and composed to be read together and so to reveal to the cognoscenti this secret origin and rationale for the Christian religion. Further, this Flavian Pentateuch, read thus intertextually, should disclose a series of cruel jokes and parodies of the very faith it presented for the consumption of the masses who read them literally. The Flavian aristocrats themselves would have gotten the jokes, especially the rich jest that the fools who fell for their scam religion were worshipping Titus without knowing it. In a cover blurb, Robert Eisenman (a sometime colleague of author Atwill, one hastens to add, on other endeavors) remarks, “If what Joseph Atwill is saying is only partially true, we are looking into the abyss.” And the abyss is looking back at us. But is it even partially true?

Eisenman’s interest in Atwill’s proposal is understandable. Eisenman, in his monumental work James the Brother of Jesus, was able to show, from an altogether new perspective, how thoroughly pro-Roman is New Testament faith. Compared with the religion of nationalistic Jewish Christianity it must have seemed the foulest betrayal, an overnight devolution of the faith of a messiah who stormed the temple, condemning its Roman lapdog rulers, into a religion advocating obedience to Caesar, paying him his denarius, and accepting Quisling tax collectors as brothers in the faith. And Atwill is attempting to explain how such a Gentile Christianity, seemingly a perverse parody of Jewish messianism, could have come about. But does Eisenman accept Atwill’s theory? His blurb sounds like an exercise in damning with faint praise: he doesn’t even commit himself to Atwill’s being part right. And one hopes he never does, since that would be tying his own raft to a leaden, sinking ship.

I will return presently to a handful of oddities that Atwill rightly points out, providing tasty food for further thought. But first I want to provide a broad sketch of the sense I think Atwill’s theory would make of New Testament phenomena, which is not to say it is the only theory that might account for these features. Picture a religious ethic of conspicuous compromise with the occupying authorities, a gospel that tells its believers not to resist any who confiscate their property, but to pay Roman taxes and to carry a legionary’s field pack twice the distance stipulated by Roman law. Imagine a story that blames not just Jews but implicitly nationalistic, messianic Jews for the destruction of their temple. A story that has the messiah predict that the kingdom will be taken from Jews and given to a more worthy nation. Keep in mind how the preacher of this sect befriends Jews who collaborate with Rome and eulogizes a Roman centurion for having faith unparalleled among Jews. He is declared innocent by Roman authorities but nonetheless is done in by Jewish rulers. Then think of how the predictions of the fall of Jerusalem a single generation later correspond so closely to Josephus’ account of the events, and furthermore, how Josephus even mentions Jesus as a righteous man and even as the messiah of prophetic prediction (though he himself had proclaimed Vespasian the proper object of such prophecy). When someone suggests that Christianity may have been a “safe,” denatured, Roman-domesticated, messianic Methadone to replace the real and dangerous messianic heroin of the Zealots, and that Josephus had something to do with it, it does not sound unreasonable on the face of it.

Now even this much is highly controversial, debatable, and necessarily so. But if we find this much of the premise beguiling, should we go the rest of the way with Atwill as our guide? After all, somewhat similar theories of a Roman origin of Christianity and of Jesus have been proposed by Abelard Reuchlin (whose notorious 1979 booklet The True Authorship of the New Testament strikingly anticipates Atwill’s at several points), Margaret Morrison (Jesus Augustus), Cliff Carrington (who also ascribes the gospels to the Flavians), and Stephan Hermann Huller (Marcus Agrippa, etc.). We might find that one of these alternative theories of Roman origins explains many of the same things Atwill’s does, and without the disadvantages.

Atwill’s theory does have the advantage of accounting for the persistent pro-Roman tendencies of the New Testament, but consider what else it requires us to accept. First, we are to accept a common, if committee, authorship of Matthew, Mark, Luke John, and Josephus’ The Jewish War. The whole idea seems, well, absurd. There is way, way, too much else in any and all of the gospel texts that cannot be dismissed (really, neglected) as mere padding, ballast, which is all it would be if Atwill is right. (“All of Jesus’ ministry was about the coming war with Rome and was designed to establish Jesus as Titus’ forerunner” p. 260.) Are we to dismiss the diverse, systematic, and subtle theological nuances disclosed by Redaction Criticism? Are all the patterns disclosed by Conzelmann, for instance, to be dismissed as optical illusions in order to justify Atwill?

Similarly, only the most obtuse reader, the most tin-eared, can possibly fail to appreciate the sublime quality of so much of the New Testament (agree or disagree with it), which is necessary to do if one is to dismiss the whole thing as an elaborate joke on the reader. Rather, the joke is on Atwill, whose great learning has apparently driven him mad. Just think of someone advancing the same theory about, say, the Buddhist scriptures. The worst of them are far too tedious and turgid to have been composed to fill out a hoax (who would have gone to the trouble?), while the more readable and winsome (like the Dhammapada) are filled with a wisdom beyond the reach of a worldly-minded scoffer. As to Jesus’ teachings, Atwill declares that “those who see spiritual meaning in his words are being played for a fool” (p. 234). Such a statement is only a damning self-condemnation, revealing the author’s own absolute inability to appreciate what he is reading. This is why one must not throw one’s pearls before swine.

Can we imagine that Josephus wrote consciously intending that his audience should meticulously compare his text with that of the gospels, and vice versa, for either to make sense? Atwill grants the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum, which even apologists cannot seem to swallow without trimming away the most obviously Christian gristle. He thinks the only reason scholars have dismissed it as an interpolation is that they think it fails to fit into the context, which, however, it does, according to his esoteric reading.

Atwill claims he has learned to read the esoteric secrets of the gospels, whereby they are seen as black-comedic satires of events in the Jewish War. For instance, when Jesus offers his flesh for consumption at the Last Supper, it is “really” a wink to the reader who is somehow supposed to think of a passage in Josephus set during the Roman siege, when a woman eats the roasted flesh of her own infant. When Jesus offers to make his disciples fishers of men, the line is supposed to sardonically anticipate a wartime episode in which the Romans picked off fleeing Jewish rebels swimming in the Lake of Galilee. Thinking his method justified by comparison to the ancient practice of scriptural typology, Atwill gives himself license to indulge in the most outrageous display of “parallelomania” ever seen. He connects widely separated dots and collects sets of incredibly far-fetched verbal correspondences, from gospel to gospel and between the gospels and Josephus, then uses them to create ostensible parallel accounts. Then he declares himself justified in borrowing names, themes, and intended references from one “parallel” account and reading them into the other, thus supplying “missing” features. Triumphantly, Atwill defies the reader to call it all coincidence, working out the math to show such correspondences could never be the product of chance. Well, of course they are not. They are the product of his own arbitrary gematria in the first place. “That the wicked man in the Fulvia story can be seen as a lampoon of Paul seems difficult to dispute” (p. 247), unless of course one forgot to pick up a pair of 3-D glasses on the way into the theatre. Again, Atwill hammers home the “parallel” between Josephus’ story of a Jewish matron, Paulina, tricked into sleeping with a deceiver, Decius Mundus, claiming to be Anubis incarnate, on the one hand, and that of the supposed deception of disguising Titus as the god Jesus, on the other. What do they have in common? Josephus says Decius came forward to gloat, revealing the hoax three days later, while the adjacent Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus says Jesus was seen alive again three days after his crucifixion. “There is, of course, a difference. Whereas Jesus appears on the third day to show that he is a God, Decius appears on the third day to announce that he is not a god. [But] It is implausible that something as unusual as two ‘third-day divinity declarations’ would wind up next to one another by chance.” (p. 245). But there is no declaration of divinity in either case! As Atwill notes, Decius declares the opposite, while Josephus (or whoever wrote the Testimonium passage) says nothing of Jesus or anyone else declaring him divine as a result of the resurrection. Of such airy bricks is Atwill’s cloudy castle built.

What is the utility of reading the gospels together as pieces of a single puzzle? If each evangelist meant to send the baffled reader in search of other texts with which to harmonize the one he began reading, it might enable us to iron out the contradictions, say, of the Easter stories. First, as per John 20, Mary Magdalene finds an empty tomb. But it is not that of Jesus. Rather she has mistakenly gone to the recently vacated tomb of Lazarus! She informs Simon Peter and the Beloved Disciple that Jesus appears to be missing. The Beloved Disciple plus a third man, simply “Peter,” make their way to the tomb. The Beloved Disciple arrives first but lingers for a moment outside the tomb, nearing the opening. Peter has not reached the tomb yet, but Simon Peter beats him there and walks past the Beloved Disciple, becoming the first to enter the sepulcher, where he spots the grave clothes cast aside when Lazarus left. At this specific moment, less than the duration of a minute, one must suppose, a second Mary Magdalene and her sisters (whose visit is recorded in Matthew 28) approach and see the Beloved Disciple outside the tomb. They think him an angel descended from heaven, and he tells them Jesus has risen. The women depart, and the Beloved Disciple joins Simon Peter inside, whereupon another party of women, including a third Mary Magdalene (this time from Luke 24), approaches and see the two men in the tomb. They take Simon Peter and the Beloved Disciples for angels. They leave, and, moments later, so does Simon Peter. As soon as he vanishes, here comes a fourth Mary Magdalene, this one from Mark, and she spies the Beloved Disciple inside the tomb and thinks he is an angel. He tells her and her companions to relate the news to Peter (who has not yet arrived, remember, only the quite distinct Simon Peter!). The Beloved Disciple returns home, but soon the other (Lukan) Peter (not Simon Peter) approaches, having heard the report of the Lukan Magdalene. He has brought at least one other man with him, a la Luke 24:24. The John 20:12 Mary Magdalene sees these men inside the tomb and thinks they are angels. Then she turns and sees a mysterious figure standing outside the tomb, takes him for the gardener, and asks him about Jesus, then thinks he is Jesus. But in “fact” he is Titus Caesar. The savvy reader (i.e., Atwill) will get the joke: the “Jesus” worshipped by stupid Christians is really Titus. It is all supposed to be “a comedy of errors” a la Plautus.

Atwill hypothesizes that the Flavian jokesters were compiling the gospels-plus-Josephus as a kind of intelligence test, and Atwill implicitly congratulates himself as the only one in history who has ever passed it. “I would note that the satirical system that unites the New Testament and Wars of the Jews can be seen as an exercise in mind expansion, in that to solve the puzzles the reader must learn to think ‘outside the box,’ so to speak. The authors were making the point that the narrow focus the Sicarii Zealots maintained regarding a few scrolls was a limited and inaccurate mode of thought. The authors seem to be suggesting that only by seeing all sides of a problem can the truth be known. Therefore it is possible that they designed the New Testament as a tool to intellectually uplift the messianic rebels” (p. 225). No it isn’t. “It is possible that the authors of the Gospels created them as a sort of educational tool disguised as a narrative about Jesus. The authors may have wished their readers to work through the various contradictions in logic in order to develop their reasoning ability and thus be able to think their way out of religious superstition. They may have wished the Gospels to be seen by posterity as their contribution to the development of reason” (p. 167). Or maybe as a big Jumble puzzle. “The point I think the creators of Christianity were making with their use of comedy is that there are unlimited ways to interpret scripture and it is easy for the uneducated to see symbolic meaning where there is none. They made this point by creating the New Testament as an example” (p. 234). No, it is Atwill himself whose creation demonstrates the limitless possibilities of perverse and gratuitous interpretations of the text.

One hates to be so severe in the analysis of the work of an innovative thinker who gives us the gift of a fresh reading of familiar texts, but in the present case it is hard to euphemize. The reading given here is just ludicrous. There are indeed surprising parallels between Josephus and the gospels that traditional exegesis has never been able to deal with adequately, but surely the more natural theory is the old one, that the gospel writers wrote late enough to have borrowed from Josephus and did so. Thus, as per Edgar J. Goodspeed, Matthew 23:35 probably confuses the biblical prophet Zechariah son of Berechiah with the revolutionary martyr Zechariah son of Baruch whose death Josephus relates. But is this because Josephus and his committee of comedy writers are responsible for both references, meaning for us to read them in tandem, as Atwill avers? Or is it because Mathew read the information in Josephus and mixed it up (as Luke did Josephus’ references to Theudas the Magician and Judas the Galilean in Acts 5:36-37)?

Atwill reasons that Jesus’ prediction of the fall of Jerusalem plainly prefigures Josephus’ account of the actual events, and he infers that both versions (in the future and the past tenses) stem from the same source, Josephus and his Flavian collaborators. Then, he reasons, the Son of Man whose coming was to climax the apocalyptic scenario must be none other than the actual man who did wreak judgment on Jerusalem, Titus. Atwill congratulates the Preterist school of interpreters (like J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia) on recognizing that the Synoptic predictions of the desolation of Jerusalem must have been completely fulfilled in 70 CE, with nothing left over for futurist expectation. Here is one of Atwill’s most attractive suggestions, though he does not put it the way I am about to do. I believe that Bultmann was right that several “son of man” sayings in the gospels referred originally simply to “mankind” in general (e.g., Mark 2:10, 28; Matthew 12:32). In fact, I wonder if they do not retain this non-Christological “Everyman” denotation even in the gospels. Further, I suspect even more of the son of man sayings are intended this way, e.g., Mark 14:21. Perhaps Mark 13:36 (“And then they will see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”) is another one. If it were, then maybe what we read there is a reference to Josephus’ account of the end of Jerusalem, heralded, he says, by people beholding in the flame-tinged clouds the forms of battling soldiers and charioteers. After all, the introductory (redactional) question placed in the disciples’ mouths concerns the time of the temple’s destruction.

Again, Atwill suggests that Mark’s story of Joseph of Arimathea requesting the body of Jesus be taken down and given to him comes from Josephus’ own experience of recognizing three crucifixion victims as former associates of his and securing Roman permission to have them taken down alive and treated, though only one survived. How similar are the names “Joseph of Arimathea” and “Joseph bar-Matthias” (the historian’s full name)! If the gospel story is based on Josephus’ story, that would solve the problem of why Joseph seems to have asked only for Jesus, and what happened to the two other “thieves” crucified alongside him. But to posit such a thing, one hardly need envision a committee writing both stories in the hope that the clever reader would connect them (as if doing so would remotely imply some identity between Jesus and Titus Caesar!).

Unaware of the work of Theodore J. Weeden, Atwill traces out the numerous striking parallels between the Passion story of Jesus Christ and the Josephus story of Jesus ben-Ananias, his interrogation by the Sanhedrin and the Roman procurator, his predictions of Jerusalem’s destruction, and his flogging and eventual death, suggesting the two Jesuses are one and the same. (It is too bad the rest of Atwill’s parallels are not similarly compelling, even plausible.) But surely, as Weeden argues, the explanation is that Mark simply borrowed the story from Josephus.

What about the Roman-tilting anti-Judaism (maybe anti-Semitism) of the gospels? Again, the old explanations are quite natural and adequate: we are reading the documents of Gentile Christianity which viewed itself as superseding Judaism and Jewish Christianity. Why do their authors seem to kiss the Roman posterior? For apologetical reasons, to avoid persecution. Brandon, Eisler, and others saw that long ago. One need hardly posit that the gospels are cynical Roman (not merely pro-Roman) propaganda a la Reuchlin and Atwill.

According to Atwill, “the reader needs to comprehend perhaps the most complex literary satire ever written” (p. 169). But Atwill’s envisioned satire seems so complex as to be incoherent. “Jesus” stands not only for Tiberius but also for a hypothetical Zealot leader named Eleazar, who also appears in the New Testament as Lazarus. Mary Magdalene stands for several different women, “Mary” being, Atwill guesses, a term for any female Jewish rebel or sympathizer. Simon Peter and Peter are not the same, either. The two gospel genealogies, a la Rudolf Steiner, represent two distinct Jesuses. In Atwill’s hands, everything means everything else. And, in the end, you know what that means."


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 7:08 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Heavens Sandy.....even my eyes got crossed halfway through that!

Have pity on us people of a certain age & condense it a bit or highlight the important tracts!!

with respect and maybe I need glasses!

Sheila & the menagerie xx


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 7:18 pm 
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High King

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Hello Sheila,

Sorry!

It is a good review. I didnt want to spoil it by chopping it about. I almost dont need to read the book after reading the review : )


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 7:36 pm 
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Queen Bee
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So...a propros of the reply above the reply above of the one before that....

How many times does this need to be said!

An inscription in the Vatican states plainly, "He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." This is not terribly surprising, unless you consider that this is inscribed on the remains of the temple the Vatican was built on- one dedicated to the God Mithras. Mithras was a solar deity whose worshippers called him redeemer; his religion died out not long after the advent of Christianity.

Hundreds of years before Jesus, there was a passion story told about a God man, born of a virgin mother, in a stable. He travels about with his followers, preaching and performing miracles, including turning water into wine. Eventually, he incurs the wrath of the religious authorities, who are appalled that he refers to himself as the son of god. He allows himself to be arrested and tried for blasphemy- a willing self-sacrifice. He is found guilty and executed, only to rise from the grave three days later, where the women weeping at his tomb do not recognize him until he assumes his divine form. This god, also one of the first depicted crucified, is the vine-God Dionysus.


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 7:43 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Is Jesus Christ the annointed/Risen.....actually who we think he is?

Is he even a person?

Image

Image

Image

Or is he something else ?

Image


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 8:30 pm 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
This reminds me about a book i purchased


Someone else who relies on the contradictory Gospels to try and fathom out Christian origins...


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 9:40 pm 
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Quote:
Someone else who relies on the contradictory Gospels to try and fathom out Christian origins...

Because everything written in the Gospels is to be taken as "Gospel" :wink:
Regards
Nic


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 11:19 pm 
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Acolyte

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I recently bought this book (although I've only just begun to read it):

"The Five Gospels : What Did Jesus Really Say? The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus" by Robert W. Funk, Roy H. Hoover, and The Jesus Seminar.

It contains new (and interesting!) translations of the four canonical gospels, plus a translation of the Gospel of Thomas. Many pious Christians won't like it (although some insist that it served to reaffirm their faith).

It turns out that only about 18% of sayings attributed to Jesus actually came from his own lips. The Gospel of John doesn't appear to be trusted at all (as a historical document) by the Jesus Seminar.

If anyone here has already read The Five Gospels, then do please share your opinion on it.


Regards,

David Williams.


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2009 11:27 pm 
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High King

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Someone else who relies on the contradictory Gospels to try and fathom out Christian origins...

gotta start somewhere.
And i have read the Bible...


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 Post subject: R L C is a protestant thing
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2009 2:12 am 
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R L C in this instance stands for red letter Christian, check out these links to find out why.

http://stackblog.wordpress.com/2007/10/ ... name-alas/

http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/20 ... maest.html

http://www.esv.org/blog/2006/03/red.letter.origin

for folk who read a talmudic inspired version of the bible...Scolfield was funded by NYC zionists to produce his commentaries giving the Scofield bible a 'rapture' - pro-Israel spin.
http://www.brandonstaggs.com/2007/08/30 ... te-christ/

this is for biblic ref folks...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/freeoffer.cfm


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2009 4:26 am 
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High King
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Those footprints carved on a stone by the Kashmir Yuz Asaf tomb are actually a Buddhist or Hindu symbol, the footprints of Buddha or Vishnu. I have put an image of the Yuz prints above an image of Buddha prints and a Vishnu print, obviously that's what they are. Why there would be a Buddhist/Hindu symbol on the tomb of Jesus, I don't know. Probably because he was revered by the Buddhists and Hindus even though he wasn't one himself.

ImageImage


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