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 Post subject: City of Secrets
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2009 8:41 pm 
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High King

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I have been reading through some posts that i have missed lately and the ones about the sainte ampoules (Doves) reminded me of somthing i read in city of secrets that i thought might be significant......or perhaps not :lol:
on page 165 Patrice says " then i saw the french girl hanging a cage of doves at the side of the courtyard, Jose watched her assessingly. The birds of peace, he said. 'but only two' she didnt know what he meant and he replied you only ever have two doves, surely you remember the directions"
then on page 175 " he frowned at the cage of doves the french girl had placed in the entrance. There you have it- the white dove and the black dove, the black is the messanger of darkness. How could this happen? there were two white doves yesterday.......he saw it as a sign of ill omen like the church in France, by the porch are two doves, one facing east the other west. One turned black and nothing was right after that"
Anyone have any thoughts ........ : :wink:
The church at RLC does have two doves on the porch but both are white :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2009 8:56 pm 
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High King

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:lol: :lol: THE WHITE DOVE IS A SYMBOL OF PEACE :lol: :lol:
Come on people.........stop all the bitching and get back to talking about the things we joined this forum for in the first place.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2009 10:16 pm 
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High King

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The Dove

As a Christian symbol it is of very frequent occurrence in ancient ecclesiastical art.

As a symbol of the Holy Spirit it appears especially in representations of the baptism of Our Lord (Matthew 3:16) and of Pentecost. St. Gregory the Great (590-604) is generally shown with a dove on his shoulder, symbolizing inspiration or rather Divine guidance. A dove of gold was hung up in the baptistery at Reims after the baptism of Clovis; in general the symbol occurs frequently in connexion with early representations of baptism. In ancient times a dove-like vessel was frequently suspended over the baptismal font and in that case
As a symbol of martyrdom it indicated the action of the Holy Spirit in bestowal of the fortitude necessary for the endurance of suffering.
As a symbol of the Church, the agent through which the Holy Spirit works on earth. When two doves appear the symbolism may represent, according to Macarius (Hagioglypta, 222), the Church of the circumcision and that of the Gentiles.
On a sarcophagus or on other funeral monuments the dove signifies:

the peace of the departed soul, especially if, as is often the case in ancient examples, it bears an olive branch in its beak;
the hope of the Resurrection.
In each case the symbolism is derived from the story of Noah and the Flood. Such is the meaning of the dove (columbula, palumba sine felle) in numerous epitaphs of the Roman catacombs. Occasionally funeral lamps were made in the shape of a dove. Two doves on a funeral monument sometimes signify the conjugal love and affection of the parties buried there. The dove in flight is the symbol of the Ascension of Christ or of the entry into glory of the martyrs and saints (cf. Psalm 123:7: "Our soul is escaped as a bird from the snare of the hunters, the snare is broken and we are delivered." In like manner the caged dove signifies the human soul yet imprisoned in the flesh and held captive during the period of mortal life. In general, the dove as a Christian emblem signifies the Holy Spirit either personally or in His works. It signifies also the Christian soul, not the human soul as such, but as indwelt by the Holy Spirit; especially, therefore, as freed from the toils of the flesh and entered into rest and glory.
As a Eucharistic vessel
The reservation of the Holy Eucharist for the use of the sick was, certainly since early medieval times, effected in many parts of Europe by means of a vessel in the form of a dove, suspended by chains to the baldachino and thus hung above the altar. Mention may be made here of the (two) doves occasionally represented in the Roman catacombs as drinking from a Eucharistic chalice (Schnyder, "Die Darstellungen des eucharist. Kelches auf altchr. Grabinschriften", in "Stromation Archaeologicon", Rome, 1900, 97-118). The idea of the Eucharistic vessel was probably taken from the dove-like receptacle used at an early period in the baptisteries and often suspended above the fonts. These vessels were usually made of gold or silver. This was no doubt always the case if the vessel was designed to be the immediate holder of the Blessed Sacrament, since the principle that no base material ought to be used for this purpose is early and general. But when, as seems generally to have been the case in later times, the dove was only the outer vessel enshrining the pyx which itself contained the Blessed Sacrament, it came about that any material might be used which was itself suitable and dignified. Mabillon (Iter Ital., 217) tells us that he saw one at the monastery of Bobbio made of gilded leather, and one is shown to this day in the church of San Nazario at Milan which is enameled on the outside and silver gilt within. The exact time at which such vessels first came into use is disputed, but it was certainly at some early date. Tertullian (C. Valentinian. cap. iii) speaks of the Church as columbae domus, the house of the dove, and his words are sometimes quoted as exhibiting the use of such vessels in the third century. The reference, however, is clearly to the Holy Spirit. In the life of St. Basil, attributed to St. Amphilochius, is perhaps the earliest clear mention of the Eucharistic dove. "Cum panem divisisset in tres partes . . . tertiam positam super columbam auream, desuper sacrum altare suspendit" (When he had divided the bread into three pieces . . . the third part placed in a golden dove, he suspended, etc., Vita Bas., P.G., XXXIX). St. Chrysostom's expression concerning the Holy Eucharist, convestitum Spiritu Sancto, clothed with the Holy Spirit (Hom. xiii, ad pop. Antioch.), is generally taken to allude to this practice of reserving the Holy Eucharist in a dove, the emblem of the Holy Spirit. The same idea is expressed by Sedulius (Epist. xii) in the verses, "Sanctusque columbae Spiritus in specie Christum vestivit honore" -- "And the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove has robed Christ in honour".

The general, and certainly the earliest custom, both East and West, was to suspend the dove from the ciborium or baldachino. At a later period in some parts of the West, especially in Rome, a custom grew up of placing a tower of precious material upon the altar, and enclosing the dove with the Blessed Sacrament within this tower. Thus, in the "Liber Pontificalis" which contains ample records of the principal gifts made to the great basilicas in the fourth and succeeding centuries, we never find that the dove was presented without the tower as its complement. Thus in the life of Pope Hilary it is said that he presented to the baptistery at the Lateran turrem argenteam . . . et columbam auream. In the life of St. Sylvester (ibid.) Constantine is said to have given to the Vatican Basilica pateram . . . cum turre et columba. Innocent I (ibid.) gave to another church turrem argenteam cum columba.


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 Post subject: The Holy Spirit
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2009 11:08 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Breathe in me, O Holy Spirit, that my thoughts may all be holy.
Act in me, O Holy Spirit, that my work, too, may be holy.
Draw my heart, O Holy Spirit, that I love but what is holy.
Strengthen me, O Holy Spirit, to defend all that is holy.
Guard me, then, O Holy Spirit, that I always may be holy.
Amen.


-- Prayer to the Holy Spirit, Saint Augustine of Hippo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 12:00 am 
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Grand Master
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about 16 years ago, while on a mission to adopt a rescue cat or dog...i came across a beautiful dove. she was a widow. her mate died and she was still young. i was told by staff that doves are usually monogamos by nature and that she would die soon.

enough said...i took her home. i named her paloma, of course :)
and she saw me through illness and a separation.
she even dealt with grisou (my cat rescue). she would fly wherever she wished (as her cage was open)...she would only "poo" in her cage. she lived with me for 13 years.

City of Secrets is difficult for me to read...so i need a little time.
i think that there is a possibility that the passage you highlight deals with the roman catholic church and the changes therein...
might be completely off-track...but what other organised religion weilds such power? and why?

all of me,
paula

(infiltrate one of the most powerful institutions on this planet...and control the flocks...)

papal authority is no longer what it used to be.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 6:40 pm 
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High King

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ok.....so no one is really interested in the Doves.
How about the Stone animal head that Lluis (AKA THE WOLF) gave her?
He said "I have it on good authority that the animal head comes from ancient Egypt and it was with a piece of rattle that belonged to a goddess, worshipped at that time. It was up there lying by the broken wall. It was originally used in BURIALS of powerful and evolved people"

come to think of it Andy......have you seen this head thing?
you should ask your girlfriend .....oops i mean Patrice (just kidding :lol: )to show you next time you see her because i am sure if Lluis really did give it to her she will have kept it. Somehow i dont think this is true though, this object would have been far to valueable to give away and i think there is a bit of obfuscation going on :wink:
Any thoughts anyone????????


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 Post subject: Doves
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:02 pm 
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High King
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tingra wrote:
ok.....so no one is really interested in the Doves.


No, I am, but not able to offer anything of value, unfortunately. Roscoe, however, has written about their symbolism, and about Esclarmonde, their use in coronation ceremonies, etc., and could probably offer a lot, or direct to areas of the forum where this has been addressed in the past.

Did once have weird experience with dove ( :? :? ) near RLC which I wrote about here, and then wished I hadn't :oops: as it sounded a bit off the wall when I read it back. I can't remember which thread it's in, and it's hopefully well buried by now under Mr Norton's prodigious output (something to be genuinely thankful for!). Will pm the details some time, if you like.

So ..... kind of interested in doves.

Gonna re-read "City of Secrets" too (seems like ages ago, and I've forgotten lots) so I can get more into this. Have lost touch with "Girona".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:24 pm 
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Queen Bee
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The dove that holds the Eucharist within its womb is a symbol for Mary the Queen of Heaven.

I'm interested in doves too, this one is for Crimson Dove.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Doves
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:26 pm 
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High King

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richard.webster wrote:
tingra wrote:
ok.....so no one is really interested in the Doves.


No, I am, but not able to offer anything of value, unfortunately. Roscoe, however, has written about their symbolism, and about Esclarmonde, their use in coronation ceremonies, etc., and could probably offer a lot, or direct to areas of the forum where this has been addressed in the past.

Did once have weird experience with dove ( :? :? ) near RLC which I wrote about here, and then wished I hadn't :oops: as it sounded a bit off the wall when I read it back. I can't remember which thread it's in, and it's hopefully well buried by now under Mr Norton's prodigious output (something to be genuinely thankful for!). Will pm the details some time, if you like.

So ..... kind of interested in doves.

Gonna re-read "City of Secrets" too (seems like ages ago, and I've forgotten lots) so I can get more into this. Have lost touch with "Girona".


To be honest Richard i am clutching at straws and just trying to keep COS alive because i feel sure it is so conected with Berenger.......i dont know why, just call it womens intuition if you like :lol: I could go on forever picking out bits of the book that i feel are significant but i dont think anyone else thinks the same judging by the response on this thread.
Anyway.......maybe i should stop or i will be done for copyright by Patrice :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:33 pm 
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High King

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Sheila wrote:
The dove that holds the Eucharist within its womb is a symbol for Mary the Queen of Heaven.

I'm interested in doves too, this one is for Crimson Dove.

Image


nice picture Shiela.

But what about the significance of the Two Doves in the book.....two white, then one turned black.......what did he mean by THE DIRECTIONS.....what about the RLC connection?
Or am i just putting two and two together and making half a dozen eggs??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:41 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Hi Tingra, keep at it girl...I read "City of Secrets" the first day it was available in France...ages ago.
I loved it...& you are right...there is something there. Like Richard said..I need to read it again too.
I remember a bizarre incident near a billboard?....the importance of a course of stones in the masonry of the tower?....the meetings...and the Sunstone.

I've been following your interest in the subject...keep going!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:44 pm 
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Grand Master
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Roger wrote:
Black and white, good and evil, back to back, like the knights on the "Dalle des Chevaliers". The Cathars, amongst other heretics, adhered enthusiastically and unquestioningly to such Manichean views.

The systematic misrepresentation of the Cathars as exemplars of "good early Christians" is a willful political rehabilitation of the sect for a variety of purposes, but is at 180 degrees from the truth, as any study of the matter will easily show.


you keep feeding us morsels luv.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:55 pm 
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High King

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Roger wrote:
Black and white, good and evil, back to back, like the knights on the "Dalle des Chevaliers". The Cathars, amongst other heretics, adhered enthusiastically and unquestioningly to such Manichean views.

The systematic misrepresentation of the Cathars as exemplars of "good early Christians" is a willful political rehabilitation of the sect for a variety of purposes, but is at 180 degrees from the truth, as any study of the matter will easily show.


your not wrong there......some of the stuff i have read about the Cathars did not bring the words Good Men to my mind. But then again its like everything else when you start to delve into it, nothing and i mean nothing is as it seems.

what about the Stone Head?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 7:59 pm 
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High King

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Get your reading heads on girls.......... :lol:
and VAM, where are you????? what do you think as you have just read the book????


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 8:03 pm 
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Roger wrote:
Thus far, I have to say that only Tingra has been following the "morsels", as you put it, to good use. Hence, I continue to provide them in the hope that perhaps others also will follow their curiosity to logical research and conclusions.


why? why feed us morsels? are we that "low" in the chain?

so, i shall now sit back, like you...and read.

tingra...you go girl!!!

all of me,
Paula


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 8:05 pm 
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High King

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Roger wrote:
Quote:
what about the Stone Head?


I'd have to examine the "stone head" in order to opine, but it certainly sounds like the "Cult of the Dead" dunnit? :wink:


yes ..... i have tried to find out about it and as yet i havent been able to find anything......the description is not very good and i have found similar stuff in my books but nothing exact. The thing is though,...... is it real.... or just another one of those things that she chucks in to keep us interested or is it aimed at the other parties the book was written for????


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 8:20 pm 
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So why am I thinking...

Cathars/Weavers

La Sanch/Cordeliers

??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 8:24 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Cordeliers...Franciscans....St Anthony of Padua.

Oh Heavens I'm off again...I'm sorry..I can't help it!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 8:25 pm 
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High King

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Roger wrote:
Quote:
The thing is though,...... is it real.... or just another one of those things that she chucks in to keep us interested or is it aimed at the other parties the book was written for????


I ask myself the very same questions, so - at least on the topic of "City of Secrets" - we're in the same boat.


yes but i am still lost in the fog on the other thing :lol:
the counts of Vexin are very VEXING.

How about the full article to the Girona Manuscrips, i mean the one you posted the quote from.....can i see it??????
Another thing in the book (oh god i sound like a complete anorak) Patrice tells us that once Jose found what he was looking for he handed the excavations over.........What was he looking for that was so important and that he knew was buried in that place? We know it wasnt the sun stone so whatever it was must have been well preserved. Perhaps it was another entrance to necropolis. Lots more to investigate me thinks :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 8:59 pm 
"Roger" certainly likes stirring the elliptical innuendoes...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 8:59 pm 
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High King

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ok.....thanks.
I am hoping to go back to Girona soon and would love to see the Easter Festival....work permitting.


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 Post subject: Girona Article
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 9:04 pm 
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Grand Master
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http://www.travel-watch.com/girona.htm


N

_________________
Ingeniosis apertum, Stolidisque sigillatum.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 9:05 pm 
tingra wrote:
hoping to go back to Girona soon


Speak to Boudet's ghost while you are there for me...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 9:14 pm 
Roger wrote:
M Norton wrote:
tingra wrote:
hoping to go back to Girona soon


Speak to Boudet's ghost while you are there for me...


Shouldn't that be "speak to Boudet's ghost for me, whilst you are there"?

I'd hate to think Tingra would go on a mission to Girona for you, that would mean you acknowledge something to investigate!



Yep, that settles it - "Roger" took my comment poker-faced serious...


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 Post subject: Re: Girona Article
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2009 9:18 pm 
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High King

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Location: NEWCASTLE on the Tyne
ndawe wrote:
http://www.travel-watch.com/girona.htm


N


You Tube has the best clips of Girona if you really want to see what its like. The old part with the Cathederal and French Womans garden.
I would post a link here but dont know how to ( i know i have been told by PM a few times ) but still not got the hang of it :lol:


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