Arcadia Discussion Zone

You know those ruined buildings in the left of the Fleury Tableau? Well I have identified them as some ruins on the road to Arques. Below is a comparison between the tableau and a photo called "the road to Arques", which is from this page http://www.cassiopaea.org/Rennes-le-Chateau/ , and you can clearly see that they are an exact match. So much for the Perillos/Tableau connection theory.

These ruins on the tableau are depicting the ones of Coustoussa.

Aren't the Coustaussa ruins in a flat area? The painting shows ruins on a slanting hill, just like in the image I posted. What are those ruins anyway. That's not Coustaussa is it? Has anybody ever traveled on that road? Here's Coustaussa;

No, they're not in a flat area. They're adjacent to the village, at the top of a high ridge, above the road from Couiza to Arques, which would be just below the bottom of the second photo you posted. There's a steep switchback road that comes off the main road and snakes up the escarpment. I can't remember the exact lie of the land, but from memory, I think the road goes up to the bottom right-hand corner of the castle, as shown in the photo. Through the line of Cypress trees, in other words.

As to the image in the painting, I'd always presumed this to be Coustaussa, and didn't know that someone had made a connection to Perillos. It's obviously not a perfect likeness, but near enough, and the only castle in the immediate vicinity of RLC that is of the same sort of proportions, and in the same ruined and burnt out state. So nothing's certain, but it's a reasonable assumption. I've never been into the castle grounds, as they're privately owned and closed to the public. The ruins seem to be in a fairly precarious state, as well.

So what's that first photo of, the one I put next to the tableau? That's not just the Coustaussa ruins as seen from the other side than the view shown in my second post, is it? And if it's not Coustaussa, what is it? What's on the road to Arques, presumably starting from RLC?

Coustaussa!

You're being cynical !

I think Henry Lincoln had already pointed out the similarity in his guide to RLC dvd.

From memory, the only ruined castle on that side of the road, heading east before you get to Donjon de Arques is the ruined Coustaussa castle. And they look more impressive from a distance than they do close up (imo). Unfortunately they are closed to the public due to their fragile state.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. It looks a bit like a derelict building site up close, but I guess in part that's because of various bits of metal fencing, red and white tape, warning signs, etc. Bit of a forlorn sight.

JB - rest assured, both photos definitely of the same castle. The first one's looking sideways on at what I presume was the former keep. The second one's been taken from above, so you get less of an impression of the way the place looms above you at the top of its ridge. Just a perspective thing.

Actually, the best view of all is from the other side, looking across from the bottom of the escarpment with the capitelles, where you can see the outline of the ruined sections against the background of the forested slopes opposite.

I think, like Pilrig, I first came across the comparison with the tableau on the Henry Lincoln "Guide to RLC and the Aude Valley" DVD (actually, VHS tape in my case), which I'd highly recommend. Lots of nice visuals, sacred geometry, tramping around the countryside, etc. with a superb narrator. Very much my kind of thing.

Rorschach has a lot to answer for! I'll sit on the fence and say 'maybe, maybe not'.

Okay fine, so the ruins in the tableau must definitely be Coustaussa and it is clearly as seen from a position close to that part of the road shown in the first image. That means that the hill shown in the tableau, which Jesus is standing on, must be over to the right of that bend in the road. So you just walk around over there until you find it, it probably being a tumulus (grave mound) as seen right in front of Jesus. A mound with flowers on it can only be a grave mound.

Thanks to those who helped confirm that the ruins were indeed those at Coustaussa. Forgive my ignorance, but I don't get to France much, as in never. I did look at the area in Google Earth and could see that Coustaussa was between RLC and Arques but you can never be sure until someone who has actually been there confirms that the view in the photo is those particular ruins.

Who painted Fleury Tableau ?
It may be Coustaussa or it may not be. I'm inclined to think it is, but that's just my opinion. If you're going to add a castle or whatever as a feature to a painting, why not a local one ?

In Europe this was common use for the last five centuries.

I think that's the nub of it. The flowery mound is the centrepiece of the painting - what it's about, in other words - and the rest is a collage of different features, some of which may or may not relate to parts of the RLC landscape. But it seems quite plausible that someone would draw on their own locality when inserting such details. And because it's a collage, there's no need to have everything in the right place, as it were, so there's possibly little to be gained in trying to "read" the painting too literally, or indeed trying to read too much into it. That said, much ink has been spilled in making various connections to the "mystery", particularly in the assumed play on words inferred by a flowery terrain (un terrain fleuri) and land belonging to the Fleury family, so who knows? As ever.

JB - If you want to get into this one a bit more, then here are a few articles taken from Ben Hammott's website which address this subject. Apologies if you've read before. If not, enjoy. I found them interesting, if understandably somewhat speculative.

http://www.benhammott.com/fleury-tableau.html

http://www.benhammott.com/fleury-tableau-2.html

http://www.benhammott.com/fleury-missing-detail.html

Thanks. I did view the first two Hammott pages recently, but the last one was unfamiliar. I think the white thing he mentions on the third page is just a photographic anomaly. You can see lots of other white spots on the photo. If it were a high quality image he might have a case but it's just very poor quality.

Jean and myself are preparing an elaborate English language article for RLC Research that will come out quite soon now. Very interesting indeed.

By the way - I think the building with the closest physical match to that building is the cathedral of Béziers (it's even inverted):

(source: wikimedia)

Take care | Raven

I just happened to be looking through some old threads when I realized an interesting little coincidence. The red flowering plants in the Fleury Tableau are a striking resemblance to the plant Crista-Galli. Have a look.

Here are two pics i took of the ruins of Coustaussa last summer. You can clearly see RLC on the summit in the background. Although they do look similar, The ruins in the Fleury Tableau may be generic.

I think you maybe right
Cristi Galli
does it have another name

I viewed Coustaussa from the north up near the Grand Camp it what strikes you is the similarity to the ruins in the altar bas relief. The perspective in the altar though is from the south (if it is Coustaussa) with Cardou before and to the right of the ruins. The cave she is represented as being in would seem to be either the Grotte du Fournet or the smaller cave adjacent to that but the view is much different now from these caves with many trees obscuring they way to Coustaussa



I can confirm that is correct

A friend of mine found the plant of Muchas painting, which is in the front left from the well.
I think it is the same plant as shown in the fleury tableau.

It is from Mexico and is called : pachira aquatica.

In Germany we call it "Glückskastanie" or "Flaschenbaum"

I want to know : Is it in France also called "Flaschenbaum = Bottle tree"

This could accord to Ben Hammotts finding of the 1. bottle. In the viewing direction of the devils head on the well in Muchas painting is the "Bottle tree" situated on the right of the well, just as the bottle was burried.
..

My idea is, that the plants on

Muchas painting (in the foreground left side)
and the great
Fleury wall relief (in the foreground left side)

are the same : pachira aquatica (bottle tree)

Fleury was the first of the two artists, who used the red plant in a scene without a visible vegetation.That gives her an exponated position. He also painted the devil chair between the plants.
Mucha painted the plant more exactly. And the painting is owned by Saunier !

One of the interpretations about the relief is :How to find the bottle #1 of Ben Hammott.

In case of Asmodeus:
right hand = le cercle, left hand and finger = 4 steps, left hand thumb = to the right

In case of Mucha :
fountaine head+bassin = devils chair+well, plant = right from the well altitude of your eyes.
..