Arcadia Discussion Zone

OR, it could be that the number NINE was the important thing to get told down through the ages.....

Do a little searching on the Nine Bows of ancient Egypt.



Who were the first people to develop the bow? The Scythians.

didn't the Egyptians called Nubia “The Land of the Nine Bows”.

but we also find that...."The Nine Bows" might refer to all of Egypt's traditional enemies in general ?

Those who reached my boundary, their seed is not; their heart and their soul are finished forever and ever. As for those who had assembled before them on the sea, the full flame was in their front, before the river-mouths, and a wall of metal upon the shore surrounded them. They were dragged, overturned, and laid low upon the beach; slain and made heaps from stern to bow of their galleys, while all their things were cast upon the water. (Thus) I turned back the waters to remember Egypt; when they mention my name in their land, may it consume them, while I sit upon the throne of Harakhte, and the serpent-diadem is fixed upon my head, like Re. I permit not the countries to see the boundaries of Egypt to [--] [among] them. As for the Nine Bows, I have taken away their land and their boundaries; they are added to mine. Their chiefs and their people (come) to me with praise. I carried out the plans of the All-Lord, the august, divine father, lord of the gods.

It's a topic that surely requires more digging.

I haven't been able to research it more since finding a reference to it some time back.....life has gotten in the way of researching such things.

If I'm not mistaken, the Nine Bows are mentioned in Karnak....

This looks interesting.....
check out page 3
http://rosemusical.com/files/ShoshenkList_ReadingsCompared.pdf

Informative re xenophobes http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/enemies.htm

Oh, yes....and the Sea People.



Royal Scyth's were nomadic.....just sayin'.

However, I'm thinking these Sea People may have been related to the Red Rus (Red Ruthenia - Ruth = truth....not that I know anyone with Ruth as a middle name.... ) and yes, you can follow the river systems from there all the way to Egypt. Or at least you could in ancient times.

you do now

you too?

(I was being sarcastic above.....how come that never translates well on a forum?)

I don't suppose anyone calls you Ruthie? I get that quite a bit.

Edit to add:
My given name would translate to mean = A pearl (gate to the city of heaven) of truth of the Sons of Robert

SEBORGA was regarded as a sacred place by the Cathars, who buried their High Priests there.

In February 1118, Saint Bernard de Clairvaux went to SEBORGA to join his colleagues Gondemar and Rossal, as well as the Prince Regent, Abbot Edward, to discuss the protection of the Great Secret of the Great Sacred Relic

in September 1118, Abbot Edward welcomed and ordained in SEBORGA the first nine Knights of Saint Bernard, who were to form the famous Poor Militia of Christ, the Order of the Templars, the first of whom would leave the Principality in November 1118 for the Holy City of Jerusalem.

Fifteen of the twenty-two Grand Masters of the Order of Templars were also appointed Princes PRO TEMPORE of the Principality of SEBORGA. Grand Master Guillaume de CHARTRES died in SEBORGA on the twenty-sixth of August 1218 from his wounds received in the Holy Land. Thomas BERARD, son of ASTRAUD, was born in SEBORGA, as certified by a Lombard notarial deed of 1247, and became the nineteenth Grand Master of the Templars.

http://conseildeseborga.com/history.htm

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http://conseildeseborga.com/history.htm

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hey lov.....I can't get your link to work. Is it just me?

No serendipity I had a hard time too when I tried to get on

It was a fantastic link though I got to see the papers
You would be very very interested in it Serendipity

Look on the search for the Seborga thread TCP Wayward and I discuss the question of authenticity

try here Serendipity
http://andrewgough.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3746&hilit=Seborga

Seborga is a one-size-fits-all title, order, and diploma mill masquerading as a Ruritanian-style tourist trap and separating gullible, would-be "Templars" from their money since 1963. Only the terminally dim believe it's real.

TCP

Is that just an assumption on your part or do you have something at hand to demonstrate that Gnosticism (in whatever form) lingered past the 4th century?



Tolerant of Catholics, yes. But do you have anything at hand to demonstrate the idea that Alaric was tolerant of Gnostics? Or that there were Gnostics in significant numbers in the Visigoth's kingdom to tolerate?



Highly doubtful. What's your source for that statement?



Source?



The incident you're referring to occurred at Orléans, and three years later at Liège and Arras. Northern cities. I had thought we were discussing the survival of Gnostic sects in the south of France. By the way, the accused in all three cases were Catholic monks and priests "infected" by a heretic monk from Lombardy named Gundulf, whose "heresy" was only nominally comparable to that which sprung up in Albi a century and a half later. Public burning of the victims was carried out Orléans, but those of Liège and Arras recanted and were spared. These weren't incidents of popular uprising over a latent belief system, these incidents occurred within the church itself.



"Katharoi" was a name applied to several heretical sects whose origins were not necessarily common or related. And given that the "Catholic era" began in the late 4th century, how long does "well into" mean and what do you have to back it up with?



I'm still waiting to see some evidence to support that idea - that it was "rooted" in France and survived below the radar until the 12th century.

TCP

I'd say your homework was pretty rushed, especially if you're under the impression that one could even make it from Carcassonne to Cahors in two days without killing a few horses in the process. And that's assuming the terrain is level.

The probability of all nine "not" hailing from the same part of the country is slim, especially as they were setting out on a long journey from the north together on a common mission and it can be assumed they all spoke the same language. We can plot on a map where Hugues de Payens, Geoffrey de Saint-Omer, Payen de Montdidier and Andre de Montbard came from (Champagne, Flanders, Picardy and Burgundy, respectively) and while the place of origin for Archambaud de Saint-Aignan has not been pinpointed, it is most likely the old parish of Saint-Aignan north-east of Rouen. The southernmost option would be in Touraine, roughly 40 miles southeast of Tours. Still "north", I'm afraid.

The identity of the ninth Templar shouldn't be assumed to have been a secret; it could simply be that his name has been lost to history. Perhaps he didn't survive long enough to make it into the chronicles.

As for Geoffrey Bisol, Gondamare, and Rosal, it's anyone guess as to where they came from originally. One argument I find persuasive, however, was that they were monks or squires. As the Templars set out to become "warrior-monks" (and it's the "monks" half of the equation that most often tends to be overlooked) it makes sense that they would bring along people who actually were monks.



Then I'd suppose there might be some trace of their origins in the south, wouldn't you? The Templars faced a decade of complete obscurity between their arrival in 1119 and their endorsement by the Council of Troyes in 1129, which led to their rapid rise and spreading fame. One shouldn't assume half of the original founders had been "erased", not a lot of contemporary written material from their time survives, even for those we do know.



Seborga markets a Templar myth to tourists. Their Templar "history" only dates to 1963.

TCP

As some knights were from Burgundy I took it as the crow flies from Cluny to Carcassonne based only on mileage and the best poss times if you swapped mounts in transit. We drove from Rennes LC to Paris but I honestly can't remember the terrain as I was ducking for cover at every intersection, well not except for the nasty nasty spaghetti junction as you enter Paris. Nightmare.

OK, so if Seborgia is a new wave tourist trap, then where do Geoffrey Bison, Rossal, Gondamer and the ninth knight come from? What culture or region is associated with their names? Why are their roots hush hush or is it that they were vassals. Or is the better Q 'why do we actually know the names of some founders - is it family myth?'

If the obscure Knights were Cistercian Monks of Burgundy, as some believe, then they would definitely have had ideas exchange with other Cistercians in Aude. With influence too on Benedictines perhaps. A link to the brother of Sauniere ie he could have come across some whispers of the Templar past.

Given that we don't have complete names for two of them I don't think it's glaringly obvious. We're also looking at a time when most people didn't have surnames to begin with. Nobles used toponyms for their surnames.



Why assume their roots were "hush-hush"? Not every record of every event made in the 12th century survives to this day, in fact very little does. The earliest chronicles of the Templars' history we have at hand were recorded decades after the actual events. They may or may not have had written source materials to work from, all the information could have been transmitted verbally with details not known or forgotten. Not every lacuna in the historical narrative hides a secret, or a conspiracy.



That crow would be flying over some mountainous terrain, so if one were to take the southerly route through Montpellier, Nimes, Valence and Lyon (which would be the most direct) we're looking at 530 kms or 334 miles. Not a distance that could be covered on horseback in two days, more like seven at a reasonable gait with fresh horses and rest stops.

TCP

It's handy to have someone around who can read and write.

FS

There are only three ways the Bogomil doctrine could have come to southern France in the 12th century, either by Bogomils moving to the area (doubtful), by Catholics being converted (also doubtful), or by an underground group of Gnostics adapting to the Bogomil doctrine. It is important to note (at least IMHO), that according to Hilary of Poitiers, Manichaeanism was significant in southern Gaul into the late 4th century, and that the Catholic Bishops at the Council of Tours in 1163 called the heretics of the Languedoc, "Manichaeans", not Bogomils. This would seem to indicate that Manichaeanism was still considered a threat. Bernard was sent to preach against them in 1145, but it wasn't until 1167 that the Bogomil Bishop of Constantinople, "Nicetas", actually installed Bishops in the area, which I suppose would indicate that the followers must have, by that time fully accepted the tenents of Bogomilism.

The Bogomils themselves were described as "Manichean" by Church officials. At this point it may just be a synonym for "dualist".

I think it's possible that a form of Bogomilism may have spread to Southern France by word of mouth, carried by sailors and other travelers (Bishop Irenaeus blamed the spread of Gnosticism in his Bishopric of Lyon on Greek sailors. This seems to jibe with your list of Gnostic evangelists you posted earlier. If it worked in the 2nd Century, then why not in the 12th). Once a Bogomil community had begun then would come preachers, and only then bishops to get things organized.

One of the factors working against the idea of a preexisting Gnostic or Manichean in Southern France in the 12th century is the lack of any documents from either of those religions in Western Europe prior to arrival of Bogomils in the area. (Irenaeus' familiarity with Gospel of Judas Iscariot suggests a copy of that Sethian Gnostic text existed at the time, but I doubt it would have existed long if the Bishop got his hands on it.) I

t's possible the Catholics didn't decide to do anything about thed problem 'till the 1100s because it really wasn't an issue 'till then.

FS

(edited to include the following:) The Bogomils didn't reach Southern France until they had already established themselves in Bosnia and Italy. If there had been a similar community in Southern France, then why not start there.

FS

You don't seem to be aware of the fact that there was a large Cathar presence in Italy and that its missionaries fanned out to the west (into Provence and Languedoc) and to the north (Swiss cantons, Germany, the Low Countries) "consoling" converts into Bulgarian "Ordos". That's what happens when you scan the Internet looking for bits and pieces you think might be useful in an argument, instead of sitting down with a book and getting the big picture - you miss the context and lots of detail.

And yes, as Father Silence stated below, "Manichaean", like "Cathar" itself, was a catch-all phrase for dualist heresies used in Church parlance.

TCP

Manichaen, a catch phrase? Those Catholics didn't know their religions very well did they?
btw, I also believe the ninth knight being referred to is Count Hugh hisself!

A catch phrase for dualism. Maybe the distinctions were too subtle to differentiate.



There are many who would agree with you.

TCP

Straw Man propaganda. Make "Manichean" a dirty word, then denounce ones foes as Manicheans.

FS

Manichaenism differed substantially from Bogomilism!

From "Rashi and the Christian Scholars" by Herman Hailperin, 1963
"An important but somewhat neglected chapter of the history of biblical interpretation... is the influence of the medieval jewish exegetes on their christian counterparts... in the French Champagne of Rashi... contacts with christian scholars were not exceptional for the Rabbis and other jewish Scholars."
At the same time the Jewish quarter was in the shadow of the chateau of Hughes the Count of Champagne.
There is a legend of a direct contact between Rashi and the first Christian rular of Jerusalem at the end of the first crusade in 1099, Godfrey de Boullien,. In the legend Rashi makes a prophecy on the prospect of success in the crusade for Godfrey.
Perhaps mostly not true, but it shows a connection between Christian nobility and Rashi.
One of the major reasons for the wealth of Troyes and Count Hughes were the annual fairs, and part of the reason for the success of these fairs was the Jewish contribution.
During Rashi's lifetime Jewish Scholars believed the Ark of the Covenant and other religious treasures were buried beneath the foundation stone of the temple in Jerusalem prior to the Babylonian invasion. Rashi would understandably know more about this than any Christian. Knowing the Muslims tendency for destroying religious artifacts, he could very well have given out this information to save these treasures so important to all Jews (this last sentence is speculation, by me).
No, I have no problem seeing Rashi walking with Count Hugh within the walls of the Court of Champagne discussing these, and other matters, btw the same court that where later, Chretien de Troyes was to write the epic, Perceval.
And of course the year before Rashi died Count Hugh and his vassel Hughes de Payens visited Jerusalem for four years, eventually helping to found the "La Milice du Christ" with a total of nine knights, all alledgedly from the area of Troyes.