Arcadia Discussion Zone

This is why we cannot dismiss the European theories, regardless that some were founded on nonsense...do not throw baby out with bath water... You are all intent on looking in France....but before France...what then? Do not give up the research yet.

Good! Then look in Germany...in Italy...in Japan.....as well as Kashmir..
Just LOOK. This research has a long way to go yet.. Anyone can make the next breakthrough anywhere!

:cry: I know..that's the problem to solve...a child is mentioned...but where? when?
There are hints and clues, but we cannot connect the dots. Yet.
It's a long shot, but DNA is the next research tool in our toolbox..if they care enough to do it on the
Shroud of Turin and on Egyptian mummies,,,then surely someone will care enough to through a few Biblical prophets into the DNA trail...

The DNA of a man who lived two thousand years ago is not likely to definitively link him directly with anyone living today. Mutations occur slowly but they do occur, and there are bound to be several in a 2,000 year time span.

TCP

I do remember a documentary some years back of an ancient skeleton found in Cheddar; scientists managed to find modern day relatives still living in the area. DNA does degrade, but i guess the scientists in this case were extremely lucky and the body buried in favourable conditions that helped preserve the little that was left. Here's the Wiki link to the story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_Man

Ah, i see. I thought you were looking for a direct link. Descent from a male could be difficult for other reasons, what about illegitimacy? That is those who genuinely thought they were descended, and inherited appropriately, but were the product of an illicit liaison. You only need one to throw a spanner in the works...

There are two tombs I place the greatest historical value on ...that of Muhammad, and that of Abraham (Sarah is buried in the same cave). Because most conflicts today involve their alleged descendants, this seems the place to begin settling those differences.

The skirt of Hagar was the area in which Ismail was raised. The house of Hagar is there. Her grave is near the third column of the Kaaba.What a surprise since no one, not even prophets, are supposed to be buried in mosques but in this case, the house of a maid is located next to Allah’s house! Hagar, the mother of Ismail is buried there. The Kaaba extends toward her grave.

Hagar-Ishmael Lineage:
"World views

Historians and academics in the fields of linguistics and source criticism believe that the stories of Ishmael belong to the three strata of J, or Yahwist source, the P, or Priestly source, and the E, or Elohist source (See Documentary hypothesis). For example, The narration in Genesis 16 is of J type and the narration in Genesis 21:8-21 is of E type.

Islamic traditions consider Ishmael to be the ancestor of Arab people, excluding Arabs who are descendants of Ya'rub. Arabs who are from Ishmael-descendant tribes are occasionally referred to as "Arabized-Arabs" to highlight their ancestry. The Prophet Muhammad was of these Arabs. However, many modern Arabs also believe their tribes and houses to be of Isaac's blood line, in particular in Southern Palestine.[citation needed]

Jewish traditions are split between those, like Josephus, who consider Ishmael the ancestor of the Arabs, and those, like Maimonides, who believe that the northern Arabs are descended from the sons of Keturah, whom Abraham married after Sarah's death.
Judaism
See also: Isaac in Jewish traditions

Judaism has generally viewed Ishmael as wicked though repentant (Whereas Christianity omits any reference to repentance which is sourced in the Talmudic explanation of the Bible . Judaism maintains that Isaac rather than Ishmael was the true heir of Abraham.

In some Rabbinic traditions Ishmael is said to have had two wives; one of them named Aisha. This name corresponds to the Muslim tradition for the name of Muhammad's wife. This is understood as a metaphoric representation of the Muslim world (first Arabs and then Turks) with Ishmael.

The name of an important 2nd Century CE sage—Ishmael ben Elisha, known as "Rabbi Ishmael" (רבי ישמעאל), one of the Tannaim—indicates that the Bibilical Ishmael enjoyed a positive image among Jews of the time.

Rabbinical commentators in the Midrash Genesis Rabbah also say that Ishmael's mother Hagar was the Pharaoh's daughter, thereby making Ishmael the grandson of the Pharaoh. This could be why Genesis 17:20 refers to Ishmael as the father of 12 mighty princes. According to Genesis 21:21, Hagar married Ishmael to an Egyptian woman, and if Rabbinical commentators are correct about Hagar being the daughter of the Pharaoh, his marriage to a woman selected by the Pharaoh's daughter could explain how and why his sons became princes.

However, according to other Jewish commentators, Ishmael's mother Hagar is identified with Keturah, the woman Abraham married after the death of Sarah, stating that Abraham sought her out after Sarah's death. It is suggested that Keturah was Hagar's personal name, and that "Hagar" was a descriptive label meaning "stranger".This interpretation is discussed in the Midrash and is supported by Rashi, Gur Aryeh, Keli Yakar, and Obadiah of Bertinoro. Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzhaki) argues that "Keturah" was a name given to Hagar because her deeds were as beautiful as incense (hence: ketores), and/or that she remained chaste from the time she was separated from Abraham—keturah [ קְטוּרָה Q'turah ] derives from the Aramaic word for restrained.

It is also said that Sarah was motivated by Ishmael's sexually frivolous ways because of the reference to his "making merry" (Gen. 21:9), a translation of the Hebrew word "Mitzachek". This was developed into a reference to idolatry, sexual immorality or even murder; some rabbinic sources claim that Sarah worried that Ishmael would negatively influence Isaac, or that he would demand Isaac's inheritance on the grounds of being the firstborn. Others take a more positive view, emphasizing Hagar's piety, noting that she was "the one who had sat by the well and besought him who is the life of the worlds, saying 'look upon my misery.'"
Islam
Lineage of six prominent prophets according to Islamic tradition

Adem (Adam)
Nuh (Noah)

Ibrahim (Abraham)

Ishmael

Is'haq (Isaac)

Musa (Moses)

Maryam (Mary) (note: not through the male lineage)

Isa (Jesus)

Between 1922 and 1968, Anderson lived in Germany and the United States with various supporters and in nursing homes and sanatoria, including at least one asylum. She emigrated to the United States in 1968, and shortly before the expiry of her visa married Jack Manahan, a Virginia history professor who was later characterized as "probably Charlottesville's best-loved eccentric".Upon her death in 1984, Anderson's body was cremated, and her ashes were buried in the churchyard at Castle Seeon, Germany. After the collapse of communism in the Soviet Union, the locations of the bodies of the Tsar, Tsarina, and all five of their children were revealed and multiple laboratories in different countries confirmed their identity through DNA testing. DNA tests on a lock of Anderson's hair and surviving medical samples of her tissue showed that Anderson's DNA did not match that of the Romanov remains or that of living relatives of the Romanovs. Instead, Anderson's mitochondrial DNA matched that of Karl Maucher, a great-nephew of Franziska Schanzkowska. Most scientists, historians and journalists who have discussed the case accept that Anderson and Schanzkowska were the same person.

Ah, i see. I thought you were looking for a direct link. Descent from a male could be difficult for other reasons, what about illegitimacy? That is those who genuinely thought they were descended, and inherited appropriately, but were the product of an illicit liaison. You only need one to throw a spanner in the works...

First, if a female today has a living father or brother, DNA extracted successfully from an ancient man may still be successfully compared with her lineage..second, point well made! ...it takes only one illicit 'oops' moment to throw off all the genealogy, and I'll wager that happened a lot!

DNA can't be used to tell whether or not someone was born out of wedlock.

TCP

But DNA CAN determine who the father wasn't. I can just imagine every royal house in Europe flunking the direct lineage claims at some point in their ancestry after DNA testing....bound to happen.

DNA can't be used to tell whether or not someone was born out of wedlock.

TCP

Ah, i see. I thought you were looking for a direct link. Descent from a male could be difficult for other reasons, what about illegitimacy? That is those who genuinely thought they were descended, and inherited appropriately, but were the product of an illicit liaison. You only need one to throw a spanner in the works...

This where written documents come in handy. My paternal great-grandad was illegitimate: his parents didn't marry each other, but my g-g grandma took my g-g granddad to court in a paternity suit, and after winning said case she gave him the surname of the father. If it hadn't been for this court case back in 1858 I wouldn't have my present surname.

from the link that Crow posted, an excerpt:
Claim to the throne of England

In 2004, Britain's Real Monarch, a documentary broadcast on Channel 4 in the United Kingdom repeated the claim, disputed among historians, that King Edward IV of England was biologically illegitimate, and therefore that Abney-Hastings, as the senior descendant of George Plantagenet, 1st Duke of Clarence, is the rightful King of England. Were Edward IV illegitimate, his daughter, Elizabeth of York, from whom the current British royal family is descended, would be excluded from the rightful succession and Michael Abney-Hastings would be the monarch based on an unbroken line of Male Preference Primogeniture leading from William the Conqueror who became king of England by right of conquest in 1066.

And a comparison of your Y-DNA to your g-g-grandfather's would prove parentage; only documentary evidence would prove illegitimacy.

TCP

My g-g grandad, an Ayrshireman in the manner of Robert Burns . He was a widower with two kids, met my g-g grandmother got her pregnant then married another woman later in the year..and she had a kid within a year of marriage...must be something in the Ayrshire water.