Arcadia Discussion Zone

seems to be a few lining up for 'the lass'... you, Roger, Richard, and I think Wayward is thinking of jumping on board! This could be a battle for ages, pedantic analysers versus nomadic free-associators...

The Royal House of Stuart became extinct in the male line with the death in 1807 of Henry Benedict Stuart, called "King Henry IX" by Jacobites, who succeeded his elder brother Charles Edward Stuart in 1788. Charles was survived only by an illegitimate daughter, Charlotte Stuart, Duchess of Albany. The Jacobite claim then passed to members of various continental Catholic dynasties, most recently to Franz, Duke of Bavaria, head of the Wittelsbach dynasty.

Lafosse claims that this history is inaccurate and that the Stuart line did not end with the death of Henry Benedict Stuart. Instead, Lafosse says that Charles Edward Stuart secretly obtained a papal annulment of his marriage to Princess Louise of Stolberg-Gedern, and subsequently, in a secret ceremony, married a woman called Marguerite O'Dea d'Audibert de Lussan, Comtesse de Massillan. He says this union produced an heir in 1786, a son, Edward James Stuart, Count Stuarton, Count of Albany, from whom he says he is descended.

Lafosse says he is the son of "HRH Princess Renee Stewart, Lady Derneley" (according to Lafosse, the senior descendant in the female line of Edward James Stuart), and "Gustave Lafosse de Chatry, 5th Baron de Chatry". These individuals, as well as others, are listed in an extensive genealogy presented by Lafosse as evidence that he is descended from the last Stuart King of Scotland.

There is some disagreement over who Lafosse's parents and ancestors were. Lafosse says he was born on 21 April 1958 in the Ville de Bruxelles district, and that his parents were Baron Gustave Joseph Fernand Clément Lafosse and Princess Renée Julienne Stewart. In 2002, Brussels authorities stated that this certificate is a forgery, and that they have a birth certificate showing that Lafosse was born in Brussels on 21 April 1958, in the Watermael-Boitsfort district to Gustave Joseph Clément Fernand Lafosse, a shopkeeper, and Renée Julienne Dée, a business employee.

Peter Piniski, in The Stuarts' Last Secret, says of Lafosse's assertion:

One recent, heroically unsubstantiated claim is that Prince Charles married in 1785 and fathered a legitimate child. This 'fact' (which has escaped the notice of every historian for over two hundred years!), is particularly imaginative considering the prince was married at the time, being only separated from Louise von Stolberg-Gedern, after April 3rd 1784, who remained under the protection of the Pope. Nor was eighteenth century Rome the best of cities for an internationally known Roman Catholic prince to commit bigamy. It also ignores Charles' wretchedly infirm condition from before that date until his death three years later. Likewise does it ignore the presence (and insult the memory) of Charles' daughter and sole heir, Charlotte, who was daily at her father's side, nursing him right up to the moment of his death despite her own cancer. Professing direct descent on the female line from this 'marriage' the same claimant equally fails to provide any evidence, proper references or verifiable source documents for his additional assertion of descent on the male line from not one, but both daughters of Charlotte Stuart. Professor Lenman describes all of this as: 'The industry of Stuart charlatanism'.

Lafosse has also stated that he was "President of the European Council of Princes", following Archduke Otto of Austria's tenure in that position. Archduke Otto has said that he had never been president of any such body, or a member of any such body, and that, in fact, he had never heard of it.

Although she claims she wrote The Expected One as fiction, she also claims that it is really about her, and she really is the Grail child..
Academics are highly skeptical of claims that Mary Magdalene traveled to France and that she and Jesus had a child. Bart Ehrman, chair of the department of religious studies at the University of North Carolina and author of Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend, said: “You can survey anyone who is a scholar of early Christianity and they will tell you the same thing – it’s completely bogus. There are no records. We have no account of Mary Magdalene even going to France until the Middle Ages and the legend about her going to France sprung up because there was a cult to Mary Magdalene in southern France.”

Ms McGowan’s claim to be descended from a child of Mary and Jesus is outlined in the afterword to what she says is a partly autobiographical novel.

She has offered no proof of her heritage but said she had traced it to an ancient French lineage that claimed to trace its roots to the pair.

There is a Wiki page that spoke of the three claimants to the title of Grail child.. persons who have publicly claimed to be from a Jesus bloodline my name is notably absent- wonder why?):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_bloodline

1. Basharat Saleem, the late Kashmiri caretaker of the Martyr's Tomb of Yuz Asaf in Srinagar.
2. Michel Roger Lafosse, a Belgian false pretender to the throne of the former Kingdom of Scotland.
3. Kathleen McGowan, an American author, lyricist, screenwriter
1. Bashrat Saleem (also known as Bashrat Shaheen) is the man in Kashmir (now deceased and believed murdered) who had the genealogy scroll he claims went directly back to Jesus and Marjan (not Magdalene). This is who I was working with in Kashmir and it was his granddaughter who might have been touted as the 'Grail child" had McGowan not read about her on my forum and beat her to it. My research and my journey centering around Kashmir goes back to about 1997-98. At that time in New Zealand, L.G. and his web mistress became friends with me and sent L.G.'s book 'Bloodline of the Holy Grail when it was published. It was very exciting to see Merovingians and mention of some of my own ancestors...L.G. and I had numerous emails through the years. I had no way to check his book or research....but I can say that although he never agreed with the Jesus in India tomb, he was always supportive of the direction my own research was taking me. Now I don't give two hoots if you want to blast his name to hell and back.. I will neither bad mouth him nor go along with anyone who does. He was the one who advised me to try to research and grant money with Nat Geo......I sent several letters to them, and made two appearances at their Washington offices.....but I could not make any guarantees about the situation there, which was terrible at that time (right after 9-11)....so let's move on to the next claimant. Oh! Before I do, I want to emphasize that the claimant in Kashmir never intended to write a book, never took a dime, never stole or removed an artifact from the tomb, was involved in several local court cases to support his claim, and won them, and he risked his life to save the tomb. His claims to be descended from Yuz Asaf have never been disproved. Only the DNA can prove that claim..

2. Michel Roger Lafosse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Roger_Lafosse

Quote:
The Royal House of Stuart became extinct in the male line with the death in 1807 of Henry Benedict Stuart, called "King Henry IX" by Jacobites, who succeeded his elder brother Charles Edward Stuart in 1788. Charles was survived only by an illegitimate daughter, Charlotte Stuart, Duchess of Albany. The Jacobite claim then passed to members of various continental Catholic dynasties, most recently to Franz, Duke of Bavaria, head of the Wittelsbach dynasty.

Lafosse claims that this history is inaccurate and that the Stuart line did not end with the death of Henry Benedict Stuart. Instead, Lafosse says that Charles Edward Stuart secretly obtained a papal annulment of his marriage to Princess Louise of Stolberg-Gedern, and subsequently, in a secret ceremony, married a woman called Marguerite O'Dea d'Audibert de Lussan, Comtesse de Massillan. He says this union produced an heir in 1786, a son, Edward James Stuart, Count Stuarton, Count of Albany, from whom he says he is descended.

Lafosse says he is the son of "HRH Princess Renee Stewart, Lady Derneley" (according to Lafosse, the senior descendant in the female line of Edward James Stuart), and "Gustave Lafosse de Chatry, 5th Baron de Chatry". These individuals, as well as others, are listed in an extensive genealogy presented by Lafosse as evidence that he is descended from the last Stuart King of Scotland.

There is some disagreement over who Lafosse's parents and ancestors were. Lafosse says he was born on 21 April 1958 in the Ville de Bruxelles district, and that his parents were Baron Gustave Joseph Fernand Clément Lafosse and Princess Renée Julienne Stewart. In 2002, Brussels authorities stated that this certificate is a forgery, and that they have a birth certificate showing that Lafosse was born in Brussels on 21 April 1958, in the Watermael-Boitsfort district to Gustave Joseph Clément Fernand Lafosse, a shopkeeper, and Renée Julienne Dée, a business employee.

Peter Piniski, in The Stuarts' Last Secret, says of Lafosse's assertion:

One recent, heroically unsubstantiated claim is that Prince Charles married in 1785 and fathered a legitimate child. This 'fact' (which has escaped the notice of every historian for over two hundred years!), is particularly imaginative considering the prince was married at the time, being only separated from Louise von Stolberg-Gedern, after April 3rd 1784, who remained under the protection of the Pope. Nor was eighteenth century Rome the best of cities for an internationally known Roman Catholic prince to commit bigamy. It also ignores Charles' wretchedly infirm condition from before that date until his death three years later. Likewise does it ignore the presence (and insult the memory) of Charles' daughter and sole heir, Charlotte, who was daily at her father's side, nursing him right up to the moment of his death despite her own cancer. Professing direct descent on the female line from this 'marriage' the same claimant equally fails to provide any evidence, proper references or verifiable source documents for his additional assertion of descent on the male line from not one, but both daughters of Charlotte Stuart. Professor Lenman describes all of this as: 'The industry of Stuart charlatanism'.

Lafosse has also stated that he was "President of the European Council of Princes", following Archduke Otto of Austria's tenure in that position. Archduke Otto has said that he had never been president of any such body, or a member of any such body, and that, in fact, he had never heard of it.


I know that L.G. was also involved in this.....but I have the feeling from what little he told me that felt kinda duped and taken in, much the same way that you might have been when you sought your own 'Coat of Arms'. I simply don't know the full story. I only know that La Fosse made a very deliberate attempt to falsify his past in order to make future claims, in order to enrich himself through this falsehood. It was a consciously contrived fraud, no accident or poor research...

3.) Kathleen McGowan http://www.religionnewsblog.com/15338/k ... descendant
Quote:
Although she claims she wrote The Expected One as fiction, she also claims that it is really about her, and she really is the Grail child..
Academics are highly skeptical of claims that Mary Magdalene traveled to France and that she and Jesus had a child. Bart Ehrman, chair of the department of religious studies at the University of North Carolina and author of Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend, said: “You can survey anyone who is a scholar of early Christianity and they will tell you the same thing – it’s completely bogus. There are no records. We have no account of Mary Magdalene even going to France until the Middle Ages and the legend about her going to France sprung up because there was a cult to Mary Magdalene in southern France.”

Ms McGowan’s claim to be descended from a child of Mary and Jesus is outlined in the afterword to what she says is a partly autobiographical novel.

She has offered no proof of her heritage but said she had traced it to an ancient French lineage that claimed to trace its roots to the pair.
However, although she promised proof, and she alluded to 'secret scrolls' (see Bashrat Shaheen above for where she got that idea) no proof and no scrolls were ever forthcoming..she has always been regarded as a fraud seeking publicity and money...making deliberate fabrications...Now please recall Tim, that at the time a whole slew of supporting evidence fro others came out...her problems with claims to the Linda Goodman files...her problems with several other writing/publishing attempts...plus other issues of credulity such as claiming that she was an ordained minister to her publishers, and yet admitting on Facebook that she "ordained" herself one night in the moonlight...err....ahem....and this is legal 'religious freedom' in the USA..(by the way, we are not friends on Facebook...I get the occasional post from others who are).

I have never made fraudulent claims...if I err about the lineage because all those Merovingian Des Marets ancestors are confusing to me, that is an honest error, not a deliberate fraud... If I investigate the claims made by others about my family lineage, that is not self serving publicity, nor ego driven dillusion....that is an honest attempt to find out what the heck is going on!

Tim, you have been so very unfair about all this...You have tried to twist this around into some hideous agenda that you 'think' I have, whether jealousy, ego, revenge, publicity. Wrong on all counts. If I am out to lie or commit fraud here, then I am the dumbest of the dumb! I have stumbled more than succeeded, I would say. I have failed. All these years and all these words are wasted....You could never beat me up as much as I beat myself up over how badly I've handled all this. But that doesn't make me a fraud or a liar....

Shasta

As I recall,I wrote that edition in the wake of KMG's claims. I was extremely careful to avoid the pitfalls of making such claims..My intention was never to get attention as a 'Grail Child'...

but rather to advance the idea that DNA might be the best way to go...

and I had no legitimate reason for putting the Project together (remember I was facing fundamentalists who controlled the tomb) except to say that our interest lay in our family name...According to Islamic law, that was/is one of the few reasons they would allow the DNA to be retrieved. So to be very clear, on one hand I avoided making such claims except as generalizations involving the entire family line, and second, I had to make some statements to justify to the Mullahs why they would allow the opening of the grave. It was a fine line, and from the angle of your questioning here, it appears that you think I crossed that line, which was never my intention..

What I have said in both the old and the new edition, is to identify my family line, then explain how OTHERS in the world made claims that descendents from Merovich, Clovis and Clothilde were somehow connected with the desposyni of Jesus. This is the reason for my initial interest. No claims were made....just a few "what if's" to lead the reader into the next train of thought. I tried to answer the questions as though all of us may be descended from this bloodline...how should we approach the research, what should we do to advance the research? That led to gathering the DNA from as many ancient Biblical graves as possible and narrowing the gathered results into some assumptions about the Jesus bloodline.

Further, in your choice of wording in asking the questions, you failed to include the fact that I acknowledged how many fakes and hopefuls have entered this field, and why it is so critical that solid proof be established....or at least the best we can do to narrow the filed down. I don't have handy a copy of the same edition that you have, so I cannot grab a page number for reference, but hadn't I included examples about Anna Anderson and Michael LaFosse?

I became interested in this line of research because of my family name. I didn't establish those links. Others had already done so.

I was painfully aware of those who had gone before and sullied the research. I actually lived at a place where the 'other' alleged tomb of Jesus exists (Kashmir, India). I met people there who claimed to be direct descendents of Jesus. They even had ancient 'scrolls' with a genealogy. We discussed about finding out some day-through DNA tests- that we might be related. We even called one another 'cousins' in a light-hearted way...they helped me and I helped them forward the DNA project...and that's when and how all this started about me making claims to be descended from Jesus. No. I made claims to initiating the DNA Project. Nothing more. However, many people, like Professor Hassnain, jumped on the idea that I might be a descendant of Jesus and released many statements to the press. If you search, you can also find claims that I broke into the tomb and tried to steal the DNA with a teaspoon.!!

The DNA of God Project is not the same as the initial effort to get DNA from the tomb of Roza Bal...this idea developed later, over time, as I realized these tombs were all under threat of imminent destruction by fundamentalists..if we can get DNA from one alleged Biblical tomb, then why not all of them! That's how the Project was born. I never claimed to have the DNA of God.
Your choice of words saddens me.

If you still have an interest, I can send you the revised edition as an email attachment..it represents a major overhaul and may help clarify your questions and their relevancy.

There is no need for name-calling, assumptions, and false accusations, nor a need to completely misrepresent the information in my book. I am glad for any opportunity to help clarify some things, at least to the best of my ability.

Shasta

Hey TCP, nothing personal....as i said, i'm not following this thread and i certainly know nothing about the subject matter, but.... there seems to be a lot of heavyweights lined up against the lass and i don't think that's fair....just chill for a bit, because you know darned well that people are following your moves and snapping at her heels and that, in my book, is just not on.

There is a Wiki page that spoke of the three claimants to the title of Grail child.. persons who have publicly claimed to be from a Jesus bloodline my name is notably absent- wonder why?):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_bloodline

1. Basharat Saleem, the late Kashmiri caretaker of the Martyr's Tomb of Yuz Asaf in Srinagar.
2. Michel Roger Lafosse, a Belgian false pretender to the throne of the former Kingdom of Scotland.
3. Kathleen McGowan, an American author, lyricist, screenwriter

no...i'm just more of a gentleman than you are.

I know that L.G. was also involved in this.....but I have the feeling from what little he told me that felt kinda duped and taken in, much the same way that you might have been when you sought your own 'Coat of Arms'.

I have never made fraudulent claims...if I err about the lineage because all those Merovingian Des Marets ancestors are confusing to me, that is an honest error, not a deliberate fraud... If I investigate the claims made by others about my family lineage, that is not self serving publicity, nor ego driven dillusion....that is an honest attempt to find out what the heck is going on!

Tim, you have been so very unfair about all this...You have tried to twist this around into some hideous agenda that you 'think' I have, whether jealousy, ego, revenge, publicity. Wrong on all counts. If I am out to lie or commit fraud here, then I am the dumbest of the dumb! I have stumbled more than succeeded, I would say. I have failed. All these years and all these words are wasted....You could never beat me up as much as I beat myself up over how badly I've handled all this. But that doesn't make me a fraud or a liar....

Le cliche caricatural du stereotype du petit inverti vicieux n'est pas une chose a laquelle on doit aspirer, dans la vie, et s'acharner sur une dame d'un certain age, ca manque un peu de gloire.

1] Arretez de m'appeler Roger

2] N'essayez pas de transformer le fait que je vous previens du fait que vous essayez de votre mieux d'incarner un certain cliche (qui est en effet utilise pour stigmatiser ce genre de personne) en une espece d'attaque homophobe. En fait, c'est votre acte, en incarnant ce cliche, qui est homophobe a la base.

Vous maniez tres bien la mode du politiquement correct, mais je doute que cela reussise a obscurcir votre comportement.

3] Votre acharnement contre cette dame commence a serieusement nous emmerder. Vous vous etes deja repete plus de 5 ou 6 fois dans vos diverses accusations, et maintenant vous radotez. Basta!

Hold on a minute boys, this is not good...just chill and leave it there please, and since the Moderator seems to be on his yearly jaunt topping up the tan in Acapulco, can i please take a wee moment to say enough is enough, we don't need to read this, it's not good for your souls so please shut the fuck up, and both of you PAX DCLXXXI before you wake up in the morning regretting the damage you've done to your karma.

that applies to anyone wanting to post up their pennyworth...you too Shasta, just forget it and let it lie.

so, if anybody's going to get green inked round here it'll probably be me.

Never fear, Sheila, I've telepathed my zombie minions Spartacus Paraclete and Rain to return to the Batcave.

Now would you do something with yours, please?

TCP

IMHO, that is the last place I would go if I found a Tomb of Jesus.

Sparty and Rain work for TCP

Sending all my love to you telepathically!!!
Rain.

Stupid is as stupid does

The shrine itself, at the edge of a winding alley in the backstreets of old Srinagar, first came into the limelight when a local journalist, Aziz Kashmiri, argued in his 1973 book, Christ in Kashmir, that Jesus survived crucifixion some 2,000 years ago, migrated to Kashmir and was buried in Srinagar. The modest stone building with traditional multi-tiered roof slipped into oblivion but came into focus again in 2002 when Olsson arrived in Srinagar, claiming to be Christ's '59th descendant' and seeking DNA testing of the shrine's remains.

In a series of letters to the shrine's caretakers, Olsson said she considers Rozabal a "private family tomb" . She further wrote: "My family has it (sic) origins in France, where Jesus and his wife Mary Magdalene lived for 30 years after the crucifixion. There they had two sons and one daughter. We're descendants of the son. And if you wish to know more, I refer you to a book called Bloodline of the Holy Grail by Sir Lawrence Gardner." Olsson went on to add that she was considering moving court to press her claim and secure the right to exhume the tomb. "We feel any claims you make about the sanctity of the grave are invalid ... we would prefer to move our grandfather (out of Srinagar).''

Why Thank You Sparatcus....I had almost forgotten these news articles. "In a series of letters to the shrine's caretakers"....yup. But did they publish the actual "letters"? Or what was happening behind the scenes? No. And why didn't you include the article that I dug the tomb up with a teaspoon to steal the DNA? That is so much more interesting! 59th descendent from jesus Christ? Why that came from Laurence Gardner originally! But of course he and his books are also discredited , although at the time, he was riding high and spoke of many such conclusions publicly..I'm sure that many others in addition to myself have similar conclusions...otherwise why all the hype?

There's certainly a lot more background info than you've published here...the caretaker who initially was going to get the DNA was killed a few weeks before. We were in a panic. They had got death threats before I arrived there. His entire family had to stay far in the background because of death threats..and they still do. The shrine was being stripped bare and robbed by a new caretaker who was covering his trail and trying to get people away from the tomb. No, you wouldn't know about all that led up to a court case over the tomb......nor what we were going through to save the tomb and the ancient relics. I certainly could not keep them! But they had been in care of a private family for generations, and legally it was/is still theres. By now the same tomb has been taken over by a WAQF, a type of Islamic Trust ...this one is controlled by the Farooq Abdullah family and many articles have appeared in newspapers how much they have enriched themselves with the proceeds..No worries. The entire world has lost the tomb and the valuable relics now.. Why didn't you ask me about the background info? The article is not accurate. The source was the very person who was robbing the tomb..and he was not even an "official' caretaker...he was an usurper trying to get what he could. He damaged the reputations on not only me, but the 4 offical caretakers (appointed to serve on a Board) as well..

I have no idea what Baldwin I am descended from....They were all cousins. I based my info on the research of others...and even those conclusions have changed for the past 15 years as new info is added to their research..my solicitor even suggested that I bring a copy of "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" into court for benefit of the judge.....we were desperate to get that theif away from the tomb legally...there had been a similar court case about 300 years before...why didn't you ask me about that as well? Oh that's right. It wouldn't forward your agenda to discredit me..stupid? I take full credit. If I had been smarter, we may have saved the tomb....but I failed. That should really give your moral a boost!

You have a nice day.

OH! And just to get things in perspective for you....all this was happening about the same time the Bamiyan Buddha was being blown up by Taliban fundamentalists....and guess what the 'caretaker's ' affiliations are? Yup...Fundamentalist Islam that doesn't believe in tombs and wants to blow them all up.

59th descendent from jesus Christ? Why that came from Laurence Gardner originally! But of course he and his books are also discredited , although at the time, he was riding high and spoke of many such conclusions publicly..I'm sure that many others in addition to myself have similar conclusions

In the course of our investigation we had run across the Grail in numerous other contexts as well. Some had been relatively recent, such as the occult circles of Josephin Peladan and Claude Debussy at the end of the nineteenth century. Others were considerably older. Godfroi de Bouillon, for instance, was descended according to medieval legend and folklore from Lohengrin, the Knight of the Swan; and Lohengrin, in the romances, was the son of Perceval or Parzival, protagonist of all the early Grail stories.

Yes, I can name a few (I have been following their 'careers' with interest).

Perhaps, and Kathleen McGowan, Michael Lafosse, poor Nick Weir, Laura Magdalane Eisenhower (she teleported to Mars, you know, with Obama I think), and Suzanne Olsson tried to make a career out of it. That's fair enough, but surely you must expect the claim to be examined and challenged

Laura Magdalane Eisenhower (she teleported to Mars, you know, with Obama I think!)...