Arcadia Discussion Zone

Whoah there Spartacus...... back up. You have no right to say that I made 'bogus' claims.
I made it very clear that there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of genealogy charts to choose from..
I do not know which one the Museum and the family websites have relied upon.
To assume that either is bogus is completely misleading. That remark is so unfair! If only you knew how long and hard they have worked to try and make these as accurate as possible.

Any glance at any one of the charts, whether from this line of Des Marets or that line, shows the branches to kings, queens, and princes...that fact is not altered by the use of one genealogy chart over another.....this again emphasizes the need for DNA profiles.

Now let me ask you a question. Why would you use a word like 'bogus" in the first place?
It suggests there will be no fair dialogue between us now or in the future because you
have already pre-determined a different outcome regardless what I say.

Shasta

Regarding the Baldwins and the Des Marets, my error, Spartacus, due in part to repeating the error of many others..
Further, I should have said 'relatives' not descendents. I understand how this led to confusion.

Spartacus, do you have a comprehension disability? I wont even bother answering you again because that has been answered several times above..

...the poor scholarship and comprehension seems to be on your side of the ball park, not mine.

Thank you, Richard. I appreciate that you understand this problem so well. The Ahmaddis are deeply involved in the outcome of this research. I know so many of them worldwide and have the deepest respect for them. I could never be a Muslim, but if I were, I would not hesitate to be an Ahmadii, I have that much respect for them. However, it is also a great hinderance to have any association with them when dealing with fundamentalist Islam, who deny the Ahmaddis. I am member of several of their forums, and know weekly of the deaths around the world, but especially in Pakistan, Ahmaddis being killed by Sunni Muslims. My heart aches for the plight they are in..
I got goosebumps of fear when rain started posting Ahmaddi excerpts here. I know that most people in the USA are very sheltered and sanitized from the harsh realities in the rest of the world. That's when I made the decision to delete all my posts and leave this forum...I was worried the bad directions it was going...
I appreciate that someone here is aware of these dilemmas to the ongoing research. Thank You.

Shasta

Ideas about Jesus going to Kashmir during his “lost years”, and perhaps subsequent to the crucifixion as well, have existed in western thought since as far back as the late nineteenth century, and the author of this book collects together a vast array of sources and evidence – from history, from scripture, from art, from apocryphal texts, from legend, from folklore and from oral histories and personal testimony – documenting how embedded these ideas are in parts of the Indian subcontinent, and within certain religious communities there. This is certainly no wild theory on the part of the author. In fact, this is well travelled ground, which the author endeavours to make sense of, and explain to a modern readership. For this particular modern reader, not being a person of faith, and with only a fragmentary understanding of some of the subject matter that is presented, there was an awful lot to absorb and take on board, and I can’t pretend that I finished the book with a full understanding of everything that is discussed in it, but that’s much more on account of the deficiency of this reader, rather than the writer. I was though very impressed at the way in which the author was able to address her enquiries to such a wide theological area, looking at Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism, and this can only be the result of many years of dedicated study. The book is extensively footnoted and includes a lengthy bibliography. There are also a great many illustrations and photographs.

Richard, Rain is confused by your review...especially the part where you said the claims about the tomb go back to the 19th century...Since you already have the book before you, could you please clarify to rain just how far back this topic was researched in my book? Thank you.

Metz is the capital of the Lorraine region and prefecture of the Moselle department. Located near the tripoint along the junction of France, Germany, and Luxembourg, Metz forms a central place of the European Greater Region and of the SaarLorLux Euroregion. So, Metz is a fellow member of the QuattroPole union of cities, along with Luxembourg City and German Saarbrücken and Trier.

A Celtic oppidum, an important Gallo-Roman city, the Merovingian capital of the Austrasia kingdom, the birthplace of the Carolingian dynasty, a cradle of the Gregorian chant, and one of the oldest republics of the common era in Europe, Metz has a rich 3,000 year history. The city has been steeped in Romance culture, but has been strongly influenced by Germanic culture due to its location and history. A basin of urban ecology, pioneered under the leadership of people like Jean-Marie Pelt, Metz gained its nickname, The Green City, boasting over 37 m2 (398 sq ft) of open ground per inhabitant and the city's historic downtown also displays one of the largest commercial, pedestrian areas in France.

Metz possesses one of the largest urban-conservation area in France covering 162.9 ha (402.53 acres) and more than 100 buildings of the city are classified on the monument historique list. Because of its tremendous historical and cultural background, Metz benefits from its designation as a town of art and history. The city is home to some world-class venues such as the Arsenal concert hall, the Centre Pompidou-Metz museum, and the National Opera of Lorraine (along with Nancy Opera).

A historical Garrison town, Metz is the economic heart of the Lorraine region

In ancient times, Metz was called Divodurum (meaning Holy Village or Holy Fortress in Latin), and was the capital of the Celtic Mediomatrici. The abbreviated name of this tribe, Mettis, gave rise to the name Metz. At the beginning of the Christian Era, the site was already occupied by the Romans. Metz became one of the principal towns of Gallia, more populous than Lutetia (ancestor of present-day Paris)Though the first Christian churches were to be found outside the city, the existence in the 5th century of the oratory of Saint Stephen within the city walls has been fully proved. In the beginning of the 7th century the oldest monastic establishments were those of Saint Glossinde and Saint Peter. Since King Sigibert I, Metz was frequently the residence of the Merovingian kings of Austrasia and the reign of Queen Brunhilda in particular imbued the town with great splendour. The town preserved the good-will of the rulers, when the Carolingians acceded to the Frankish throne, as it had long been a base of their family and one of their primal ancestors, Saint Arnuff, as well as his son Chlodulf, had been bishops of Metz. Emperor Charlemagne considered making Metz his chief residence before he finally decided in favour of Aachen.

Richard, Rain is confused by your review...especially the part where you said the claims about the tomb go back to the 19th century...Since you already have the book before you, could you please clarify to rain just how far back this topic was researched in my book? Thank you.

Rain said: And we all know where the information cough cough bullshit - came from don't we.

No comprehension disability, I'm afraid? What I comprehend is this... Tim, without reading your book, guessed that you were probably conflating Baldwin I des Marets (c.1076-c.1140), Baldwin II des Marets (c. 1113-c.1145)... etc. etc. with Baldwin de Boulogne, King of Jerusalem, and he called you out on it! You refused to answer because you claimed 'this was not part of your book'. I then showed that it was part of the 2010 Revised Ed. of your book. You then said that it [the Baldwin de Boulogne/'Baldwin Des Marets' claim] was an error based on the errors of others and that you should have said 'relative' not 'descendant'.

But now you are claiming that SOME 'genealogical charts' do support your original claim (did you have a quick google?), and that perhap's you might look to them to save your 'Jesus Bloodline' pretensions! Have I 'comprehend-ed' you wrong?

Thanks for buying the book Spartacus. You made the sacrifice where I couldn't.

I doubt she'll answer - she's been busted over it clearly and she can't delete it so now it'll come down to Roscoquese ad hominem attacks. Wait for it ....

Rain, sorry you feel that way.... maybe you ought to leave the conversation if it is all 'cough cough' bullshit in your eyes....
Or, you could try examining all the other sources such as the Government of India and the writings of Saint Thomas in India..oh, but that would take away all the fun of targeting me ...well then, have at it dear..

OK rain....sorry to confuse you so easily...why dont you go back abd read what I actually posted? The links to sites about Metz, Boullogne, and Lower Lorraine? You see dear, they were all the same family ruling in the same region...Gosh...I dont know how else to help you through this......just look at the maps and study a little history. Godfrey de Boullogn was related to the Godfreys of Lorraine...

I am still on the search for which genealogy exactly that the family is referring to.I have stated several times that it is confusing for several reasons. First, the names Baldwin, Godfrey, and Reginald appear in history through several family lines. The kings of Lower Lorraine and Metz are the only ones of concern to us ....they are all cousins or related in some way.. all from the same region. The name des Marets comes from Metz...this is why all the confusion arises.

rain said: I have two words for you Dear --- The Vatican.

Oh I forgot you pretended to be in contact with them as well but it didn't work so well when you were confronted with evidence that they didn't deal with your particular problem - therefore implicit was the fact that you "creatively" developed a story about contacting them.

No rain...I never said that and you are a liar.

OK rain....sorry to confuse you so easily...why dont you go back abd read what I actually posted? The links to sites about Metz, Boullogne, and Lower Lorraine? You see dear, they were all the same family ruling in the same region...Gosh...I dont know how else to help you through this......just look at the maps and study a little history. Godfrey de Boullogn was related to the Godfreys of Lorraine...the genaeology charts for each family reflect this, but it involves linking together a dozen of them to understand....and as I said, I leave that to experts and I make no claims to be one when it comes to this....I can say that many family members make pilgriages back to that region and visit the old castles and manor house...I cant afford that.

Spartacus, that's a rather weak come back....don't you want to help sort out the Dukes of Lower Lorraine from the Dukes of Boullogn? Oh I forgot....you are waiting for Tim to do that...

I doubt she'll answer - she's been busted over it clearly and she can't delete it so now it'll come down to Roscoquese ad hominem attacks. Wait for it ....

Rain, are you a fundamentalist Christian.? Catholic? Baptist? and look at this quote from Spartacus:
‘Absolute authenticity of detail is essential to our Work. Anything else is mere quackery’. The Magic Christian!
Magic Christian? This explains a lot of the problems you two are having here.....


No rain....I never said I was descended from Jesus the son of God....I said this is a theory that I explored.... you are lying again.

Spartacus: And who'd have thought that Rain and myself would become partners in crime after Slurgate?

Heating up now!

Shasta wrote:
and the bloodline of many famous and royal rulers are there...I proposed that project several years ago...(getting their DNA)...and I still
have not met any resistance from any Church when the projects are mentioned. I have to go to France and make formal application through the Catholic Church, as they make the final decision what happens on their Church property...once formalities are followed, the DNA Project can begin there...I lack time and money to continue..


I find that rather difficult to take seriously, Sue, given that the Catholic Church hasn't owned the Basilica of Saint-Denis since 1790. The property is owned by the State and managed under the direction of the Centre des Monuments Nationaux. Also there are no actual human remains beneath the sarcophagi anymore, the bones of France's monarchs were disinterred during the Revolution and thrown into giant pits full of quicklime where they dissolved for the most part. What could be salvaged thirty years later was put into an ossuary, with no means of identifying whose bones were whose in the meager haul. Call me a skeptic, but I sincerely doubt you've ever made inquiries or proposals in this regard.

TCP

Shasta wrote:
TCP You must have read that information on the same link that I posted above, as it's all part of the same article...most of the bodies were thrown into a mass grave during the French Revolution...however, not all the bodies met this fate...and not all royals with a Merovingian or Carolinian (actually branches of the same family) were buried at St. Denis. Where ever there exists even a slim chance to recover DNA, I think it should be undertaken.....and yes, there are bodies at St. Denis....royals who died AFTER the Revolution were also interred there..

The bodies of Louis XVIII and Charles, Duc de Berry, the heart of Louis XVII, and bone fragments thought to be those of Louis XVI. That's it as far as identifiable remains go for dead Capetians interred at Saint-Denis after the Revolution. Everything else is in a jumble in a bone-box, unidentifiable. The post-revolution Orléans necropolis is at Dreux. Capetian remains aren't going to get you an isolated "Merovinigian" Y-DNA strand, sorry.

Some Merovingians were interred elsewhere - Clovis I, Childebert I, Chilperic I, Chlothaire II and Childeric II (at St. Germain-des-Prés) and Chlothaire III (thought originally to be at Chelles though now questionable). The Normans sacked and burned Saint-Germain-des-Prés in 885 and looted the royal graves. The church wasn't rebuilt for another century, and the funeral monuments for the Merovingian rulers, which date only to the 12th century, may not align with the original (now empty) tomb sites. The burial mound of Childeric I was found near Saint Brice de Tournai in 1653 and looted for its contents. It isn't known whether or not the human remains were re-interred there or elsewhere (he was a pagan and thus disqualified for Christian burial) or discarded, or simply lost.

So whether or not you feel that DNA "ought" to be recovered is immaterial; you'd be hard-pressed to actually find identifiable male remains from which to extract a Y-DNA sample, and you're certainly not going to get permission to go digging from the Catholic Church as the properties are owned by the French State.


Shasta wrote:
Some of what was taken from St. Denis was returned to the Church..


Yes, a jumble of unidentified bones fished out of two large pits covered with quicklime for three decades. On the off-chance that viable samples could be extracted, you'd need a verified sample from a male Merovingian for comparison in order to ID them. Again, one can reasonably assume that the majority of the remains from which Y-DNA could be recovered would be from Capetians, which isn't going to help ID Merovingians. If it were an "either-or" scenario that would be one thing, but it isn't.


Shasta wrote:
I have made my inquiries through family members who are also interested in the DNA Project (of course)

Really, which "family members" would those be? And since you've already identified them, why don't you simply ask them for a blood sample? If you're satisfied that you're dealing with bona fide "Merovingians" you'd get a much cleaner and more complete sequence from living people. Then you'd have a control sample with which to compare all those bones in the Saint Denis ossuary once you've raised the tens of millions of dollars you'd need for this operation. Then perhaps the Centre des Monuments Nationaux might be willing to talk to you.


Shasta wrote:
St. Denis is but a small part of what is still currently available worldwide for DNA studies..for example, there are bone relics purportedly of Magdalene and of St. Thomas that could yield DNA...


And if they did, all you would have are a couple of DNA sequences and no means of making an identification without a control sample. Which I've explained in painstaking detail to you more than once, but I suppose you're still operating under the same misconceptions by choice.


Shasta wrote:
all of this must go through the Church...it is a huge and daunting task, certainly one that I am not in a position to take on...I merely make the suggestions about the possibilities, and make initial inquiries..


Nope. In France those remains are state property, not church property. You may come up with suggestions but you're painfully ill-equipped to consider possibilities. What you're thinking is possible is impossible.

TCP

Shasta wrote:
all of this must go through the Church...it is a huge and daunting task, certainly one that I am not in a position to take on...I merely make the suggestions about the possibilities, and make initial inquiries..