The Jesus - and consequently RLC - myth

VeryAngryMother · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2012 2:37 pm

cj wrote:

if the Jesus fella was an invention then what we are left with now is a powerful archetype for those who need it to tap, mind Santa Claus is probably just as valid an archetype too for all the years kids have believed in him before they grew up!!

VAM

rain · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2012 3:01 pm

Quote:

Quote:
2. The pictorial cipher. Any picture or drawing with other than its obvious meaning may be considered a pictorial cryptogram. Instances of pictorial cipher are frequently found in Egyptian symbolism and early religious art. The diagrams of alchemists and Hermetic philosophers are invariably pictorial ciphers. In addition to the simple pictorial cipher, there is a more technical form in which words or letters are concealed by the number of stones in a wall, by the spread of birds' wings in flight, by ripples on the surface of water, or by the length and order of lines used in shading. Such cryptograms are not obvious, and must be decoded with the aid of an arbitrary measuring scale, the length of the lines determining the letter or word concealed. The shape and proportion of a building, the height of a tower, the number of bars in a window, the folds of a man's garments--even the proportions or attitude of the human body--were used to conceal definite figures or characters which could be exchanged for letters or words by a person acquainted with the code.

Initial letters of names were secreted in architectural arches and spans. A notable example of this practice is found on the title page of Montaigue's Essays, third edition, where an initial B is formed by two arches and an F by a broken arch. Pictorial cryptograms are sometimes accompanied by the key necessary for their decipherment. A figure may point toward the starting point of the cipher or carry in its hand some implement disclosing the system of measurement used. There are also frequent instances in which the cryptographer purposely distorted or improperly clothed some figure in his drawing by placing the hat on backwards, the sword on the wrong side, or the shield on the wrong arm, or by employing some similar artifice. The much-discussed fifth finger on the Pope's hand in Raphael's Sistine Madonna and the sixth toe on Joseph's foot in the same artist's Marriage of the Virgin are cunningly concealed cryptograms.

3. The acroamatic cipher. The religious and philosophical writings of all nations abound with acroamatic cryptograms, that is, parables and allegories. The acroamatic is unique in that the document containing it may be translated or reprinted without affecting the cryptogram. Parables and allegories have been used since remote antiquity to present moral truths in an attractive and understandable manner. The acroamatic cryptogram is a pictorial cipher drawn in words and its symbolism must be so interpreted. The Old and New Testaments of the Jews, the writings of Plato and Aristotle, Homer's Odyssey and Iliad, Virgil's Æneid, The Metamorphosis of Apuleius, and Æsop's Fables are outstanding examples of acroamatic cryptography in which are concealed the deepest and most sublime truths of ancient mystical philosophy.

The acroamatic cipher is the most subtle of all, for the parable or allegory is susceptible of several interpretations. Bible students for centuries have been confronted by this difficultly. They are satisfied with the moral interpretation of the parable and forget that each parable and allegory is capable of seven interpretations, of which the seventh--the highest--is complete and all-inclusive, whereas the other six (and lesser) interpretations are fragmentary, revealing but part of the mystery. The creation myths of the world are acroamatic cryptograms, and the deities of the various pantheons are only cryptic characters which, if properly understood, become the constituents of a divine alphabet. The initiated few comprehend the true nature of this alphabet, but the uninitiated many worship the letters of it as gods.

Shasta · **Joined:** 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am **Posts:** 1702

Cj, well said!

When I lived in India, I wondered that people could worship a god like Ganesh, represented as a child with the head of an elephant. Yet Ganesh represents the highest ideals of man and life. There is the monkey god, Hanuman, and many other examples..
Christians and Muslims don't understand how one can disassociate himself/herself from reality and attach spiritualism to obviously ridiculous and impossible figures. They are 'pagans; to a Christian.

Then we get to Islam, which prides itself on not having "idols" or belief in fairy tales.. yet accept as blind faith, with no doubt whatsoever, that Muhammad rode to Heaven on a beast named Baraq...It has the head of a woman, the wings of a bird, and the tale of a peacock.

Christianity has Santa Clause, and thousands of saints that perform miracles, and spirit being like angels, and flights on clouds..

( at least in India they were ascending in solidly made vehicles, not on clouds).

So you come away realizing that these 'symbols', however incredulous they are, serve a purpose, explained somewhat in Buddhism. There is "a place" the mind goes during prayer or spiritual awareness, or deep meditation and contemplation, or utter relaxation.

The rosary beads, the statues, the associations, they are just tools to help us focus and get to the next higher levels.
A Buddhist or a Hindu or a Muslim, or witch doctor in Borneo can experience-produce miracles through prayer just like a Christian.....so the power is NOT in the idols or in the religion, but in our own minds..

Choosing a religion, if indeed we have a choice at all in our family and culture, is really about choosing the symbols, beliefs,
and life style most comfortable for you...

There is the unexplainable in the Universe... ESP, prayers, flashes of insight, miracles seem to be a speed-of-light communication with that greater force...we realize God, and God becomes aware of us and responds in ways that change us forever.

'God' has no religion. But I sure have a problem with the way some religions interpret God.
Shasta

lovuian · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2012 3:18 pm

lovuian wrote:

"]

lovuian wrote:

How in the world do we know that there are dinosaurs?
We don't have eye witnesses
no documents exist?

They did exist

We have their bones....if we didn't though how would we know they existed
we wouldn't but that doesn't mean they didn't exist

Dinosaurs can't write and they don't talk the same language as us
.........

But Lov it's a hell of a gap between showing a different species existed to showing that one individual person did.

I agree that it's unlikely that they'll ever prove His existance either way.

But, if someone positted today that Hercules had actually existed, would you be sceptical? Do you think that 2,500 years ago you may have given a different answer? Do you think that in another 2,500 years people may believe that Harry Potter was real (or even that Topny Blair was a god)?

It's odd how beliefs come and go. I would bet those who believd in Anu, Isis, Horus, Zeus, Jupiter....never thought it would change.
.....

......
I don't know if they were good men or if they were bad men
I just know that they put lots of money time resources into building this Temple
to a god or goddess they BELIEVED in

To me when you ask if Jesus was real
I equate to asking was Horus real

Knock yourself out

The people BELIEVED they were real

Jesus has his Temples
just like Horus does
and Jupiter

His is Notre Dame in Paris
Was he real? The people who built this Cathedral BELIEVED he was real

If he isn't real then it doesn't stop the fact that they built Notre Dame
If he is real then they built Notre Dame

Notre Dame stands as testimony to what people believed and still do
like the Temple at Karnak

Lov,
I'm not so sure. I'm not convinced that the 'common person' hasn't always been 'told' what to believe. And you have to divorce the building of the structures, the people who commissioned the buildings, and those who did the work.
If you think of the current religions, these no 'gnosis' ie no one wakes up one morning and thinks '...I now believe in Christ....' without have been taught about Christ. There's no innate awakening, just being told. I went to school and we had RE, I went to Sunday School. I bet if I had been born 2,500 years ago in Egypt, I would have a different understanding. In both cases, I wouldn't have a choice or 'action' about what I learnt. I would have had a certain set of ideas presented to me.

It's the same as the flat world scenario - ie they say that people believed the world was flat. IMHO, no not really. Certain 'learned' people may have believed that, the run of the mill man was too busy trying to eke out a living to care either way. They simply went with the flow and still do.[/quote]

I will right this again
Go ahead argue if he existed or not
I don't think you prove anything either way
He existed in history do to the fact that people believed in the oral tradition passed on from family to family
and this is REALLY the amazing truth about the POWER of a Story
It is the lesson of Love one Another and treat one another like you would want to be treated
A lesson not learned even to this day as attested here right now in these times

Yes Jlockest
we were told a Story A Myth A Legend
we are told it when we are a child but then we become adults
You make a decision

In America we fought for the Right of Religious Freedom
In Europe and other countries for centuries people fought wars over religion ...they TOLD you what to believe
or you died. It was used to control people

It is a Religion
Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

It is a way of life
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect

Anthropologists John Monoghan and Peter Just state that, "it seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

Why stop at proving Jesus exists?
while your at it prove God exists
Good Luck

Each person chooses their path
You choose to not belief in his existence
Others belief that he did

You can't prove that he didn't exist as well as if he did
Stories or Myths are very powerful
the Bards of old knew how powerful they were
The Troubadours knew their power
Freemasons know it

Hollywood knows their power
The Bible knows the Power of the Word

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Our eyes are limited in what they see ...you do realize that
Hercules exists up in the sky as a star constellation
Mu Herculis is 27.4 light years from Earth
So I ask you does Hercules exists?
Ptolemy named it
Here he is

Renne · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2012 11:19 pm

Nephi III
The Book of Nephi, the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman.

Jesus Christ did show himself unto the people of Nephi, as the multitude were gathered together in the land Bountiful, and did minister unto them; and on this wise did he show himself unto them - comprising chapters 11 to 26 inclusive.

Chapter 11
The Father testifies of his Beloved Son—Christ appears and proclaims his atonement—The people feel the wound marks in his hands and feet and side—They cry Hosanna—He sets forth the mode and manner of baptism—The spirit of contention is of the devil—Christ’s doctrine is that men should believe and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. About A.D. 34.

1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude agathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place.

2 And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the asign had been given concerning his death.

3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a avoice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they aunderstood it not.

5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.

6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:

7 Behold my Beloved Son, bin whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. - from "The Book of Mormon".

Renne · **Posted:** 22 Apr 2012 11:24 pm

At the time of the crucifixion, the veil of the temple was rent. The veil was a heavy

tapestry. Darkness covered the face of the earth also. In the Americas there was thick

darkness for days and the face of the land changed. There were cities that sank into the sea.

What could cause that kind of destruction triggering volcanoes across the continents and covering the earth

with darkness and earthquakes? This is Meteor Crater in Arizona, that line is the road and visitors` center.

jlockest · **Joined:** 13 Aug 2010 5:37 pm **Posts:** 961

lovuian wrote:

jlockets wrote:

"

.....
Lov,
I'm not so sure. I'm not convinced that the 'common person' hasn't always been 'told' what to believe. And you have to divorce the building of the structures, the people who commissioned the buildings, and those who did the work.
If you think of the current religions, these no 'gnosis' ie no one wakes up one morning and thinks '...I now believe in Christ....' without have been taught about Christ. There's no innate awakening, just being told. I went to school and we had RE, I went to Sunday School. I bet if I had been born 2,500 years ago in Egypt, I would have a different understanding. In both cases, I wouldn't have a choice or 'action' about what I learnt. I would have had a certain set of ideas presented to me.

It's the same as the flat world scenario - ie they say that people believed the world was flat. IMHO, no not really. Certain 'learned' people may have believed that, the run of the mill man was too busy trying to eke out a living to care either way. They simply went with the flow and still do.

I will right this again
Go ahead argue if he existed or not
I don't think you prove anything either way
He existed in history do to the fact that people believed in the oral tradition passed on from family to family
and this is REALLY the amazing truth about the POWER of a Story
It is the lesson of Love one Another and treat one another like you would want to be treated
A lesson not learned even to this day as attested here right now in these times

Yes Jlockest
we were told a Story A Myth A Legend
we are told it when we are a child but then we become adults
You make a decision

In America we fought for the Right of Religious Freedom
In Europe and other countries for centuries people fought wars over religion ...they TOLD you what to believe
or you died. It was used to control people

It is a Religion
Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

It is a way of life
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect

Anthropologists John Monoghan and Peter Just state that, "it seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

Why stop at proving Jesus exists?
while your at it prove God exists
Good Luck

Each person chooses their path
You choose to not belief in his existence
Others belief that he did

You can't prove that he didn't exist as well as if he did
Stories or Myths are very powerful
the Bards of old knew how powerful they were
The Troubadours knew their power
Freemasons know it

Hollywood knows their power
The Bible knows the Power of the Word

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Our eyes are limited in what they see ...you do realize that
Hercules exists up in the sky as a star constellation
Mu Herculis is 27.4 light years from Earth
So I ask you does Hercules exists?
Ptolemy named it
Here he is
.....

Edited: Hit submit instead of preview!

Lov,
Again I think that there's a difference between 'proving' G_d exists and proving whether a character called Jesus who had a 'profile' akin to that presented in the gospels, actually existed in history. I would agree though that even if there was proof of an historical Jesus that matched the profile, proving that Jesus was G_d is a completely different matter.

I would also still separate the commissioners of the buildings from the people who built them and those who subsequently used them - what the motives and beliefs were of each of the groups were I'm not sure but It would appear to me that in all religions there is an element of control.

wayward · **Posted:** 23 Apr 2012 11:22 am

jlockest wrote:

Lov,
Again I think that there's a difference between 'proving' G_d exists and proving whether a character called Jesus who had a 'profile' akin to that presented in the gospels, actually existed in history. I would agree though that even if there was proof of an historical Jesus that matched the profile, proving that Jesus was G_d is a completely different matter.

I would also still separate the commissioners of the buildings from the people who built them and those who subsequently used them - what the motives and beliefs were of each of the groups were I'm not sure but It would appear to me that in all religions there is an element of control.

I have noticed that you do not complete the word "God". Could this indicate that you profess a religion that would have an ulterior motive for proving Jesus never existed?

lovuian · **Posted:** 23 Apr 2012 11:43 am

wayward wrote:

jlockest wrote:

Lov,
Again I think that there's a difference between 'proving' G_d exists and proving whether a character called Jesus who had a 'profile' akin to that presented in the gospels, actually existed in history. I would agree though that even if there was proof of an historical Jesus that matched the profile, proving that Jesus was G_d is a completely different matter.

I would also still separate the commissioners of the buildings from the people who built them and those who subsequently used them - what the motives and beliefs were of each of the groups were I'm not sure but It would appear to me that in all religions there is an element of control.

I have noticed that you do not complete the word "God". Could this indicate that you profess a religion that would have an ulterior motive for proving Jesus never existed?

I noticed that too Wayward :wink:

The custom of substituting the word "God" with G-d in English is based on the traditional practice in Jewish law of giving God's Hebrew name a high degree of respect and reverence. When written or printed, God's Hebrew name (and many of the stand in names used to refer to God) cannot be erased or destroyed.

In the Bible
we get a profile of God too
He gets angry when the Israelites disobey him
He is vengeful and expects sacrifices in honor to him
He kicked us out of the Garden of Eden for eating an apple
He punished us for disobedience
He rescued the Israelites out of Egypt but then he had them wander for punishment

I think we have a profile of HIM

Shasta · **Joined:** 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am **Posts:** 1702

Jesus In Kashmir, The Lost Tomb; pages 15-16

Quote:

We need to grasp the epistemological relevance of Jesus’ knowledge if we are to believe in him as a sincere and accurate messenger. We need to see what he saw, or at least find something believable about the experiences he had with a God that he described as a God of light. What is this God of light if it is not made of carbon like us? Carbon can harbor intelligent life. We are the example of that. Intelligence can come in other packages too.
Silicon intelligence may already exist in the Universe (as in robots and computer-generated intelligence) but nothing indicates that Moses or Jesus encountered silicon or artificial intelligence.
This leaves us with just one other explanation; the one already provided to us in the Bible, that God is ‘intelligent light’. Scientists already predict that light-based intelligence is highly probable and may also exist in the universe. Light-based intelligence would not be subjected to death, like silicon, or like our carbon-based life. It would be the closest thing we can imagine to ‘eternal life.’
Throughout the Bible, we are constantly aware of two kinds of heavenly encounters: meeting the gods who eat, sleep, and have a visible physical form, and meeting God, who is described as image-less. This then, must be the intelligent light that made contact with Jesus.

1st Epistle of John, Ch. 1…
This is the message we have received from Him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all.

Is this intelligent light exclusive to God, or can such a speck of intelligent light exist in the structure of every living thing, behaving like two cognitive entities sharing one space? Is this the key to all of our thought processes, our memories, and our passions? Is it probable that a speck of light acts just like the CPU in our computers, that our memory and experiences are etched into its surface? We already use our eyes and brains to think and compute at the speed of light. By what process do photons act to make this happen? If this light can survive after death and retain some cognitive recognition, then this is our soul.Whatever we believe about God/Allah, heaven and hell, paradise or nirvana will be with us for eternity, played out over and over again in the program we ourselves etched onto our little photon.
Does a flower, a tree, a dinosaur or a dog have a speck of light capable of being imbued with lasting memory, cognitive abilities, and, therefore, a soul? Yes. Why not? What laws apply for one life form must apply for all. The difference is in the level of intelligence necessary to realize that one has intelligence, and in how that intelligence is applied. Death for viral bacteria, a worm, a fish, a flea or ant or an embryo does not have the same implications as death of, perhaps, a dolphin, a dog, or a man. Buddhists believe that even the lowest life forms share a place of respect with the highest-which is noble for mankind, but starvation and death for carnivores.
The logical assumption would be that the higher the intelligence of the species, the more cognitively aware it becomes, which changes the ‘imprints’, the memories it leaves on those photons. At the most advanced levels of intelligence, we finally perceive God, and God communicates his awareness of us back to us.
Everything in the world is made up of energy, even light, and our energy can be controlled by our thoughts and feelings. This kind of ‘thought’ energy can seemingly travel long distances faster than the speed of light, and yet still follow the laws of the universe.
‘Prayer’ is like ESP, telepathic, high-speed inter-galactic communi-cations between minds, between us and the vaster streams of light-consciousness: a means of rapid travel between two points. It happens at the speed of light in ways we don’t understand.
We represent just one small example of the potential for the entire universe. God is our concept of the best of us, the brightest of us, the most loving and noble, but on a grander scale. The universe becomes a playground for the mind, for our minds and for the mind of God. This creativity, His and ours, is evident everywhere. Perhaps each section of the Universe has its own God. God too may have occurred naturally, in multiples, in the Universe.

jlockest · **Joined:** 13 Aug 2010 5:37 pm **Posts:** 961

wayward wrote:

jlockest wrote:

Lov,
Again I think that there's a difference between 'proving' G_d exists and proving whether a character called Jesus who had a 'profile' akin to that presented in the gospels, actually existed in history. I would agree though that even if there was proof of an historical Jesus that matched the profile, proving that Jesus was G_d is a completely different matter.

I would also still separate the commissioners of the buildings from the people who built them and those who subsequently used them - what the motives and beliefs were of each of the groups were I'm not sure but It would appear to me that in all religions there is an element of control.

I have noticed that you do not complete the word "God". Could this indicate that you profess a religion that would have an ulterior motive for proving Jesus never existed?

Wayward,
I have a belief in my G_d but that belief follows no religion per se. As I said elsewhere, I went to a C of E school, but apart from harvest festival and Christmas services from school, I have never been an active 'Christian'. I don't have a clue if Jesus did or did not exist. To me the jury's out. BUT at this point, even it if were proven that Jesus did exist, then I'd find it difficult to 'believe' that 'my' G_d (who is omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful) needed to incarnate to experience the human condition, so I would tend to see Jesus as a very talented teacher. To me the sense is in what Jesus's alleged teachings say, rather than what He was.
The G_d things is just a stupid foible based on what I was taught (ie not to take His name in vain) - so it simply became a habit.

My interest in whether Jesus existed - and what Shasta was trying to 'prove' - was borne out of HBHG - as as I said elsewhere I never understood the bloodline bit. I never quite followed if they meant by that that there were countless mini-gods running around the planet all with super powers, or just normal people and what they thought the implication of 'descendants' then implied for each of the differing 'inheritance' scenarios.

Shasta · **Joined:** 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am **Posts:** 1702

jlokest said:

Quote:

My interest in whether Jesus existed - and what Shasta was trying to 'prove' - was borne out of HBHG - as as I said elsewhere I never understood the bloodline bit. I never quite followed if they meant by that that there were countless mini-gods running around the planet all with super powers, or just normal people and what they thought the implication of 'descendants' then implied for each of the differing 'inheritance' scenarios.

Please let's be clear. Shasta is not trying to 'prove' anything. Shasta has drawn conclusions, same as everyone else, and wrote about the sources that led to these conclusions...You are free to accept or reject, depending upon how well Shasta or anyone else conveyed those ideas...the 'bloodline bit' is not about 'proving' Shasta or you are from a bloodline...that becomes secondary and no doubt if one 'descendant' can be 'proven' then so can thousands, or millions...We are trying to establish certain historical facts about Jesus. The rest is secondary...and depends upon the first conclusions..it's a logical order of events we are seeking...

jlockest · **Joined:** 13 Aug 2010 5:37 pm **Posts:** 961

Shasta wrote:

jlokest said:

Quote:

My interest in whether Jesus existed - and what Shasta was trying to 'prove' - was borne out of HBHG - as as I said elsewhere I never understood the bloodline bit. I never quite followed if they meant by that that there were countless mini-gods running around the planet all with super powers, or just normal people and what they thought the implication of 'descendants' then implied for each of the differing 'inheritance' scenarios.

Please let's be clear. Shasta is not trying to 'prove' anything. Shasta has drawn conclusions, same as everyone else, and wrote about the sources that led to these conclusions...You are free to accept or reject, depending upon how well Shasta or anyone else conveyed those ideas...the 'bloodline bit' is not about 'proving' Shasta or you are from a bloodline...that becomes secondary and no doubt if one 'descendant' can be 'proven' then so can thousands, or millions...We are trying to establish certain historical facts about Jesus. The rest is secondary...and depends upon the first conclusions..it's a logical order of events we are seeking...

Shasta,
Again apologies if I misrepresented you. But As I said on the DNA thread I just read the posts on this forum and then comment on those posts if there's something I either find interesting or don't understand
.
On the DNA thread you said:

Shasta wrote:

.....
There is absolutely nothing wrong or ego-centric in including the facts about my bloodline ..it is vital and necessary if I am to continue with this research..and gives me the entire reason for doing so. Furthermore, there are hundreds, if not thousands of Des Marets worldwide who are a part of this...I am not standing here alone......I make no claims to be unique in any way. As has been said so often, if Jesus has descendents, then they may number in the thousands or even in the millions today...Yes. And most of them are my cousins, watching carefully everything that I do to help this project forward. If I lie, if I fail, if I muck up, then I shame not only myself, but many others as well...and I dont want to do that. I was hoping to bring respectability and common sense back to research into bloodlines....The theory is a good one, and I found supporting evidence for a son of Jesus named Eli-Kim (Alain) in India...however, Magdalene was NOT their mother, which puts me in direct contradiction with those of the Magdalene camp.....we need to bring common sense back into this research that has been sullied by frauds and greed and nonsense...

We have lost our way and need to get back on track.

I think it is important historically if we can do this, then let's give it a try....It's a lot more solid proof than false genealogy papers like Michael LaFosse produced, or the planting of false evidence and tombs like the recent farce that was exposed here...and a heck of a lot better than the histrionics of a certain middle-aged menopausal woman having hot flashes and visions that she declared as holiness and mystical bloodlines, based on her wishful thinking after getting the idea from my forum .....

I am willing to bet on the DNA as the proof we need.....this CAN be done. There are so many potential sites we can retrieve DNA from....graves of Hebrew Patriarchs in the Holy Land, Egyptian pharaohs (some of whom were thought to be Hebrew Kings) and perhaps one day even DNA from the Shroud of Turin! The prominent DNA Haplo Group of Central Asia (including Hebrews) is not Semitic or Asian, but Indo-European variants of R-1, and I believe this will prove to be the DNA of Jesus as well.....

Hence my asking you on that thread what it was exactly you were trying to 'prove'.
You're now saying that you're not trying to prove anything and I'm just a bit confused.

Shasta · **Joined:** 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am **Posts:** 1702

jlockest....

Quote:

"You're now saying that you're not trying to prove anything and I'm just a bit confused".

This is becoming something of a circular discussion. All RLC lore is based upon a bloodline of Jesus, presumably through Magdalene.
Books like HBHG have linked this bloodline to the Merovingian kings, whether rightly or wrongly..

That happens to be the bloodline that I, through the Des Marets line, and a few million others are descended from.. Of course we will examine the evidence and historical proofs and draw conclusions. I have stated repeatedly that without the DNA as a part of this research, then nothing can be established...Perhaps we can never know the DNA of Jesus....but we can draw better conclusions by getting as close to things associated with his bloodline as possible. Some breakthroughs may one day come through the DNA of Egyptian Pharaohs, or from DNA of ancient kings such as remains at St Denise and other sites....and perhaps one day even DNA from Shroud of Turin or the Sudarium of Oviedo (the facecloth). The tombs of Abraham and Sarah and many Biblical patriarchs still exist (I hope) thus even those DNA's are probable . Through these ancestors of Jesus, we can make some assumptions about his DNA.

TCP likes to argue that these things are not possible. Based on what I have researched, they are possible. Who is 'right'? It doesn't matter at this point because none of this has yet been done.

We can only keep trying....we HAVE to keep trying.

Shasta

jlockest · **Joined:** 13 Aug 2010 5:37 pm **Posts:** 961

Shasta wrote:

jlockest....

Quote:

"You're now saying that you're not trying to prove anything and I'm just a bit confused".

This is becoming something of a circular discussion. All RLC lore is based upon a bloodline of Jesus, presumably through Magdalene.
Books like HBHG have linked this bloodline to the Merovingian kings, whether rightly or wrongly..

That happens to be the bloodline that I, through the Des Marets line, and a few million others are descended from.. Of course we will examine the evidence and historical proofs and draw conclusions. I have stated repeatedly that without the DNA as a part of this research, then nothing can be established ...Perhaps we can never know the DNA of Jesus....but we can draw better conclusions by getting as close to things associated with his bloodline as possible. Some breakthroughs may one day come through the DNA of Egyptian Pharaohs, or from DNA of ancient kings such as remains at St Denise and other sites....and perhaps one day even DNA from Shroud of Turin or the Sudarium of Oviedo (the facecloth). The tombs of Abraham and Sarah and many Biblical patriarchs still exist (I hope) thus even those DNA's are probable . Through these ancestors of Jesus, we can make some assumptions about his DNA.

TCP likes to argue that these things are not possible. Based on what I have researched, they are possible. Who is 'right'? It doesn't matter at this point because none of this has yet been done.

We can only keep trying....we HAVE to keep trying.

Shasta

Shasta,
But what is possible? What are you trying to prove or establish or conclude (or whatever other word you want to use)? Are you trying to prove that Jesus existed? Are you trying to prove that the descendants that you met in Kashmir are actually descended from the person in the tomb (whoever that may be)?....
If you're not trying to prove anything, why do you need DNA?

Shasta · **Joined:** 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am **Posts:** 1702

jlockest...

Quote:

"If you're not trying to prove anything, why do you need DNA?"

It's a theory...that's all....just another historical theory, and probabilities are under discussion..
Some research may 'prove' or 'disprove' certain historical assumptions...I thought we were discussing historical options..
Did Jesus exist? Did he have children? Are there descendents? How can we establish this?
I suggest one way that may establish 'proof' for or against....I may be right or I may be wrong..

Period.

jlockest · **Joined:** 13 Aug 2010 5:37 pm **Posts:** 961

Shasta wrote:

jlockest...

Quote:

"If you're not trying to prove anything, why do you need DNA?"

It's a theory...that's all....just another historical theory, and probabilities are under discussion..
Some research may 'prove' or 'disprove' certain historical assumptions...I thought we were discussing historical options..
Did Jesus exist? Did he have children? Are there descendents? How can we establish this?
I suggest one way that may establish 'proof' for or against....I may be right or I may be wrong..

Period.

Shasta,
OK. So your theory is that Jesus didn't die and had children and that is what you want to prove by collecting DNA?

Question.

Shasta · **Joined:** 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am **Posts:** 1702

Quote:

Shasta,
OK. So your theory is that Jesus didn't die and had children and that is what you want to prove by collecting DNA?

Question.

Answer. No. I cannot prove anything. I am suggesting a way that perhaps can.

cj · **Joined:** 19 Oct 2006 3:21 pm **Posts:** 218

Just to be a real party poop, I guess some of you must've realised that if the whole Jesus thing was a fiction/hype, then there can't be a genuine 'Anti-Christ' type fella either. Wonderin', could I claim my cinema admission fees back for watching 'The Omen' trilogy?

Mind, as we've all noticed, in the battle of the Christmas archetypes,'Santa' is a pretty obvious anagram of Satan....hmmmm.

:shock:

Shasta · **Joined:** 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am **Posts:** 1702

cj...that is the theory of a book written by Acharya....I believe she has a forum to discuss those ideas..

BULLDOGNIC · **Joined:** 24 Apr 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1872

Renne wrote:

At the time of the crucifixion, the veil of the temple was rent. The veil was a heavy

tapestry. Darkness covered the face of the earth also. In the Americas there was thick

darkness for days and the face of the land changed. There were cities that sank into the sea.

What could cause that kind of destruction triggering volcanoes across the continents and covering the earth

with darkness and earthquakes? This is Meteor Crater in Arizona, that line is the road and visitors` center.

Hi Renne,
AFAIK the only "written" records from the Americas before and around 33 AD are Mesoamerican ( Maya, Olmec etc ).
Is there any evidence of a 1st CE American culture showing a global form of destruction as mentioned above ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... n_accounts
Regarding Meteor Crater in Arizona and "What could cause that kind of destruction triggering volcanoes across the continents and covering the earth with darkness and earthquakes?"
Do you not think the clue could be in the name, ie:- a meteor ?
During the Earths history there have been many major natural disasters, just look at how many earthquakes, tsunami's and volcanos have been active just over the last 10 years or so.
Regards
Nic

TCP · **Posted:** 24 Apr 2012 12:26 am

cj wrote:

Just to be a real party poop, I guess some of you must've realised that if the whole Jesus thing was a fiction/hype, then there can't be a genuine 'Anti-Christ' type fella either.

Personally I'm of the opinion that "Anti-Christ" is not/will not be an actual flesh-and-blood person; but rather an aberration of the Christ archetype, a re-interpretation tailored to suit the needs of the political and social far right-wing. Like the one we're seeing emerge now in American fundamentalism - a Jesus who is indifferent to the needs of the poor, has no love for racial or religious minorities, shuns social justice, loves guns, hates gays, votes Republican and warrants marginalization of all non-believers.

In fact, even the Bible is being re-written as we speak to weed out all that pesky liberal bias:

Conservative Bible Project

And here we all thought it was only the history textbooks being revised...

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 24 Apr 2012 12:28 am

Shasta wrote:

cj...that is the theory of a book written by Acharya....I believe she has a forum to discuss those ideas..

Perhaps you should consider that option too, Sue.

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 24 Apr 2012 12:29 am

Shasta wrote:

Quote:

Shasta,
OK. So your theory is that Jesus didn't die and had children and that is what you want to prove by collecting DNA?

Question.

Answer. No. I cannot prove anything. I am suggesting a way that perhaps can.

And that way is...?

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 24 Apr 2012 12:38 am

Shasta wrote:

TCP likes to argue that these things are not possible. Based on what I have researched, they are possible. Who is 'right'? It doesn't matter at this point because none of this has yet been done.

We can only keep trying....we HAVE to keep trying.

Shasta

I, for one, would love to hear how your research has led you to the conclusion that results are possible from the method you're proposing. I'm all ears.

TCP

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