Arcadia Discussion Zone

Having noticed the recent post resurrecting (pun intended) the argument that Jesus' tomb may actually be at Kashmir, I think maybe its time we gave serious consideration to the fact that Theologians have known for the last 200 years that there was NO Jesus, the lack of any evidence in Roman and Hebrew records surely ringing the alarm bells.

If there was no Jesus - perhaps a Council of Nicea fiction to ensure a male figure to propagate male supremacy - then the entire 'Jesus tomb at RLC' must be a myth, too, also that of a Bloodline. For what its worth, my own ever changing thoughts are that the 'Jesus' figure may have been styled on an actual living powerful female figure who did come a cropper for not knowing her place. She has become known to us as 'Mary Magdalene' and this aspect of the RLC mystery retains a validity.

A few years ago I was on the same SKY Tv show as a fella called Ken Humphreys who is reponsible for the following 'Jesus never existed' site;

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

Perhaps surprisingly, Ken isn't the only one with such an argument, his research is dedicated and persuasive, and, as Henry Lincoln would approve, checkable.

Perhaps the game is approaching UP.

Jesus - another fake, just like the "donation of Constantine"? It seems to be the way things used to work out for early Christians in Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

We do know, however, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger, that there was a Jesus "movement" in the mid to late 1st century. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if, at that time, there was any doubt about the existence of the man himself having lived just a few decades before, someone would have inserted those doubts into their narratives?



I think it's reasonable to conclude that the post-Nicene Jesus is largely fictionalized. However I'm not sure that Romans would have embraced, let alone deified, a Jewish woman; or if they had, that they would have felt it necessary to change her gender, given the fact that the extended Roman pantheon included female deities conscripted from subject cultures (Isis, Cybele, Magna Mater, etc.).

TCP

Yes, but aren't these references entirely thin in detail even to the point that the names used are not as we have them today.

And of course there is also the Piso family conspiracy claims.

Not sure about the names (can you be more specific?) but certainly these references are not long on detail, and show some signs of later embellishment. But at bare minimum, they indicate a movement. Maybe not what we know as Christianity today, but a movement.



Oh man, there's a blast from the past. Haven't thought about that one in a long time.

TCP

I think Tacitus referred to a Chrestus being crucified at the hand of Pilate during the reign of Tiberius (14-37AD).

Suetonius referred to a Chrestus acting in Rome as a leader of insurgents at the time of Claudius (emporer 41-54AD).

The Jesus passage in The Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus is said to have been inserted by Eusebius (prior versions of The Antiquities don't have the passage). I believe the Church has even admitted such.

"First and foremost, Mormon was a prophet to his people, urging them to "repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus,
and lay hold upon the gospel of Christ" (Morm. 7:8). He taught that they were "a remnant of the seed of Jacob" (7:10)
and could have the blessings of Israel if they would live for them. He also underscored the supporting relationship of the
Bible and the Book of Mormon: "For behold, this [record, the Book of Mormon] is written for the intent that ye may believe
that [record, the Bible]; and if ye believe that ye will believe this also" (7:9)."



"Jesus' mission in Samaria and Perea on a day to day basis is not as clearly recorded as the Galilean ministry. This may be due, in part,
to the fact that His apostles may have been sent away on missions of their own during parts of this time. As to Luke's account, few citys
and places are cited by him. It was not Luke's style to give a travellog. Often we do not know where Jesus taught when Luke records his
words or where he stayed or the actual time he spent, but it appears to be a period of about 6 months. Luke tells us that He taught as 'he
went to Jerusalem' while 'he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee' (Luke 17:11). Samaria in those days stretched east to the Jordan River
and it is most likely that he made a circuit through Samaria ending up following the Jordan River down to Jericho. "And it came to pass that as he was
come nigh unto Jericho a certain blind man sat by the way side begging" Luke 18:35."

How much evidence do you need?

Yes, images of earnest prophets and a strikingly handsome Jesus are entirely compelling.

The quote from Tacitus is:

""Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

In the earliest extant version of Annals the word transliterated here as "Christians" (christianoi) was originally spelled chrestianoi but that the e was crossed out and replaced with an i. There have been a number of explanations for this from scribal error to deliberate forgery. It may merely be an archaic spelling: Chrestianoi is used consistently by the Codex Sinaiticus. There is no indication that Christus was ever spelled differently in any version of Annals.

Father Silence

The main issues of the Council of Nicea was to settle the dispute as to whether or not Jesus was the same person as God and to find a system to determine the date of Easter independent of the Jewish calendar.

The idea that the Council was called by Constantine to invent a "new god" whose name was based on the Celtic god Hesus and the Hindu Krishna is derived from "God's Book of Eskra" a 19th Century work by an American dentist named John Ballou Newbrough which he produced by "automatic writing" as part od the Spiritualist "Oahspe: A New Bible".

FS

How in the world do we know that there are dinosaurs?
We don't have eye witnesses
no documents exist?

They did exist


We have their bones....if we didn't though how would we know they existed
we wouldn't but that doesn't mean they didn't exist

Dinosaurs can't write and they don't talk the same language as us

Did Jupiter exist or Athena ? Did Isis exist?
The big fact for me is that these gods and goddesses held a important place in the religious and spiritual mind of mankind
And when I look at the Temples created in their honor by mankind
I'm in Awe
The Cathedrals and even Stonehenge Awe me
The Mayan pyramids awe me

Did these gods exist? I don't know but they sure held a HUGE important part in the life of man at that time

Isn't that got anything to do with history?

Jesus plays an important part in History whether you believe he existed or not
It is the men and women who believe in him that changed the world
History is very limited in its explanation of
what happen in the past
It is affected by writers who wrote for the WINNERS
It isn't objective ...It is BIASED
What wasn't approved and stamped by the government
was burned to a crisp

Religion has been a major part in mankind's life from the stone age
that is a fact
Whether the god is true or not true ....the people of the time BELIEVED it was true
and it affected their actions

Go ahead argue if he existed or not
I don't think you prove anything either way
He existed in history do to the fact that people believed in the oral tradition passed on from family to family
and this is REALLY the amazing truth about the POWER of a Story
It is the lesson of Love one Another and treat one another like you would want to be treated
A lesson not learned even to this day as attested here right now in these times

Good dialogue, Lovuian......well made points.

But Lov it's a hell of a gap between showing a different species existed to showing that one individual person did.

I agree that it's unlikely that they'll ever prove His existance either way.

But, if someone positted today that Hercules had actually existed, would you be sceptical? Do you think that 2,500 years ago you may have given a different answer? Do you think that in another 2,500 years people may believe that Harry Potter was real (or even that Topny Blair was a god)?

It's odd how beliefs come and go. I would bet those who believd in Anu, Isis, Horus, Zeus, Jupiter....never thought it would change.

Does it matter what you believe? Doesn't it matter more what you are? I've met religious people who I thought were aweful, and people who had no belief per se who were genuinely 'good' people and the whole spectrum in between. What is a belief other than an opinion?

Horus, Zeus, Jupiter.....they were also worshipped as gods in India and across central asia, but under different names.....
Zeus is based upon the Biblical Lamech...whose three sons parallel Zeus's three sons...Noah has a different name in each culture. Melchizadec may have been the same man as Krishna. Krishna was also known as a magician,Sadhaka. As a king he would have been addresed as Malika (King) Sadakha-or Melchisadec

..These men were prophets to one culture, but gods to another...and so forth...
there were not 'many' gods in this example, but one source who may have been a living human being...

Does it matter what you believe? Doesn't it matter more what you are? I've met religious people who I thought were aweful, and people who had no belief per se who were genuinely 'good' people and the whole spectrum in between. What is a belief other than an opinion?

When you look at the Temple of Karnak



The Temple is there
I have to give the Builders of the Ancient World immense credit
they knew that papers could be burned people killed
but the stone structures were built to endure for thousands of years

I don't know if they were good men or if they were bad men
I just know that they put lots of money time resources into building this Temple
to a god or goddess they BELIEVED in

To me when you ask if Jesus was real
I equate to asking was Horus real

Knock yourself out

The people BELIEVED they were real


Jesus has his Temples
just like Horus does
and Jupiter

His is Notre Dame in Paris
Was he real? The people who built this Cathedral BELIEVED he was real

If he isn't real then it doesn't stop the fact that they built Notre Dame
If he is real then they built Notre Dame

Notre Dame stands as testimony to what people believed and still do
like the Temple at Karnak

Rev. Peloubet’s chart from Select Notes (published 1918) outlines the twelve Biblical sightings of Jesus after the crucifixion.

1 Sunday, early in the morning To Mary Magdalene
Near The Sepulcher Mark 16:9; John 20:11-18

2 Sunday Morning To the women Near Jerusalem Matt 28:9,10

3 Sunday To Simon Peter alone Near Jerusalem Luke 24:34

4 Sunday Afternoon To two disciples going to Emmaus Jerusalem and Emmaus Luke 24:13-31; Mark 16:14

5 Sunday Evening To the apostles Jerusalem John 20:19-23 Mark 16:14

6 Sunday Evening-April Jerusalem John 20:26-29

7 Last of April or first of May To seven disciples on a mountain Sea of Galilee John 21:1-13

8 Last Of April or first of May To the eleven disciples on a mountain Galilee Matt 28:16-20; Mark 16:15-18

9 Last of April or first of May To five hundred brethren Galilee 1 Cor 15; 6

10 May To James only Jerusalem, Probably 1 Cor 15:7

11 Thursday, May 18 To all the apostles Mount of Olives, near Bethany Mark 16:19-20; Luke 24:30, 31; Acts 1:6-12

12 39 AD. To Paul Near
Damascus Acts 9:3,4; 1 Cor 15:8

13 Saturday, 21 April 2012 In a pub in Watford with Elvis and Bruce Lee, Nic 22:18-91
Regards
Nic

Totes my fave!

VAM

I seem to remember reading that the "e" was over written by an "i" and appeared more of an attempt to disguise the original spelling.

FS, when you say this There is no indication that Christus was ever spelled differently in any version of Annals. do you mean it is spelt "Christus" or "Chrestus"?

Do not forget the appearance of Jesus Christ in Mexico after his crucifixion and Ressurection.

After days of thick darkness, he descended from the sky. The legends about the darkness and

the white god who shall return are still told to this day. He preached to the people and ordained

apostles - III Nephi.

Renne,

Do you have any references for this?

It is spelled Christus. The original spelling is chrestianoi (with an e) for the group blamed for the fire and christus (with an i) for the person after whom the group was named.

FS

Are you aware of any reason for christus being spelt with the "i" and chrestianoi being spelt with an "e".

Why would chrestianoi be spelt with and "e" if their leader's name is spelt with an "i"?

A Wiki reference says "Chrestus was itself a common name, particularly for slaves, meaning good or useful"

The Wiki references also Suetonius - ""As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [ Claudius ] expelled them [the Jews] from Rome"."

This seems to suggest that "Chrestus" was a live at the time of Emperor Claudius which is some years after the time of the crucifixion. Note also, the name is "Chrestus" and not "Christus".

The Talmudic references are also interesting.

All very confusing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Lov,
I'm not so sure. I'm not convinced that the 'common person' hasn't always been 'told' what to believe. And you have to divorce the building of the structures, the people who commissioned the buildings, and those who did the work.
If you think of the current religions, these no 'gnosis' ie no one wakes up one morning and thinks '...I now believe in Christ....' without have been taught about Christ. There's no innate awakening, just being told. I went to school and we had RE, I went to Sunday School. I bet if I had been born 2,500 years ago in Egypt, I would have a different understanding. In both cases, I wouldn't have a choice or 'action' about what I learnt. I would have had a certain set of ideas presented to me.

It's the same as the flat world scenario - ie they say that people believed the world was flat. IMHO, no not really. Certain 'learned' people may have believed that, the run of the mill man was too busy trying to eke out a living to care either way. They simply went with the flow and still do.

Since I set this stone, I mean ball,rolling thought I should pop back after taking in all your earnest efforts thus far. Recently I was in conversion with RLC researcher Ian Campbell who stated me that you could never prove in a Court of Law that Jesus existed, and I think this precipitaed my post as much as Ken Humphreys work - I know enough of Ken take him very seriously y'ken. if the Jesus fella was an invention then what we are left with now is a powerful archetype for those who need it to tap, mind Santa Claus is probably just as valid an archetype too for all the years kids have believed in him before they grew up!!

The generation we have now are just as suss, oh yes they'll enjoy Christmas and Easter for all the trappings they promise, but hey they didn't roll a chocolate egg away from the tomb, I think someone should tell them. No, they'll embrace these, what in truth are now truth Bank holidays, without the religious aspect which they have no interest in whatsover....it's gone. To this end I feel quite dismayed that we refer to Christmas as precisely that...if we aren't going to accept the fella who started it all we shouldn't be calling it that any longer. How about Santamas?

Seriously tho' its ok to say that if Jesus was a fiction then ok, but its not ok - its brainwashing and a ploy to ensure that those silly buggers, or should that be buggerers, held power over the masses and,worse still, supplanted a female Mother God and her priestesses into the bargain.Its fact that 50% of the churches founded in Rome were by women etc etc.

Check out the murals in the St Priscilla catacombs of how it all originally started. Who was that mystery female priestess that reappears throughout appearing to conduct proceedings and in the 'Orantes'pose is wearing the red of 'Mary Magdalene' ?

If we've been lied to, I for one are not happy....yes its an enormous cliche but I am one of those 'Truth Seekers', and if this generation are the one who have witnessed the Emperor's Clothes in action, so be it.

Here's two more interesting links;

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christi ... jesus.html

http://www.thegodmovie.com/