Arcadia Discussion Zone

Way back in 2000 or 2001, when I lived in Kashmir, a young man visited the tomb of Yuz Asaf and asked me some questions about my work there....it was right around the time that Bashrat Shaheen died and we were all still quite upset about the circumstances..plus the fact that some fundamentalists had made threats to my life at the time....the man's name was Simon Price, and he is the one who dubbed me "Indiana Sue" because I refused to leave in fear and instead I stood up to them.... he wrote an article about me that appeared in Fortean Times...I never heard of the magazine before then, I didn't even see the article until several years later, and I never used that nickname....it just stuck to me thanks to him..


The DNA of Roza Bal tomb was first suggested way back in the 1990's to then caretaker, Bashrat Shaheen. He claimed he was descended from Yuz Asaf, and claimed he had scrolls showing this lineage, and claimed this was indeed the tomb of Jesus. Then Bashrat Shaheen died suddenly under mysterious circumstances, and his office was robbed of these ancient artifacts. He left two sons, both of whom would agree to DNA testing. However, they remain in the background due to personal threats from fundamentalists...the same fundamentalists suspected of stealing the ancient proof from Bashrat Shaheen's library that day..
The fundamentalists have since siezed the tomb and keep everyone away...I have been asked to return to India and continue, but the situation at the tomb has got worse, and I fear eventually they will succeed in destroying it altogether..

[url]
http://www.viewpointonline.net/jesus-in-srinagar.html[/url]


This tomb, like so many other Christian and Jewish sites, only came under Muslim rule after conquests...and include such prominent places as Dome of the Rock and the Tombs of Abraham, Sarah, Leah, and Joseph....and much more, but that is another whole story I did touch upon in my book..such as the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and how this led to the First Crusades...(cultural terrorism)

When I entered Kashmir, I had no idea about DNA testing as a possible research tool. It was suggested that someone outside the Valley politics would have more luck and a warmer reception among the locals.. Due to Islamic law, only a family member would have the right to ask for such tests....and that is when it became imperative to include my own Merovingian descent in the DNA-bloodline quest. This helped establish a tentative relationship with Yuz Asaf and a valid reason for my request...Thus, my bloodline became imperative to this entire project in India...it was never about "playing to an audience" in the aftermath of "The DaVinci Code" dramas....but about establishing my own personal connection that would validate opening the tomb for DNA testing, and yet conform to Islamic religious requirements..

Now regarding the allusion to "another author" who touted this theme, I would remind you all that it was taken directly from my forum...a place where I freely discussed this project with others...precisely because I have a valid bloodline established back through the Des Marets to the first Merovingian kings of Jerusalem. I am sorry that I gave so much away publicly before I had published all the information in my book. That enabled others to outright steal it and ruch to publishers, and that's exactly what happened. I did in fact start a lawsuite, but lacking funds, I filed the intial court papers myself and did it wrong. When I plunked down nearly ten thousand dollars to an attorney, I found out, too late, that I filed the initial papers wrong, and did not include enough information....I would lose the case, and my home and all future publishing rights to the lawyers.....And so I withdrew and have not been able to resume since then,. The lawyers wanted me to sign over all my property rights to them in lieu of their heavy fees, and I did not want to do that....and so the court case ended and the "perpetrator" won by default...It hurt. Believe me, it hurt deeply..my entire family was upset with me for providing the opportunity at my forum to have the concept stolen on several levels..every time I read some of my thoughts and words in someone else's book (s) , I cried for my own trusting foolishness..

There is absolutely nothing wrong or ego-centric in including the facts about my bloodline ..it is vital and necessary if I am to continue with this research..and gives me the entire reason for doing so. Furthermore, there are hundreds, if not thousands of Des Marets worldwide who are a part of this...I am not standing here alone......I make no claims to be unique in any way. As has been said so often, if Jesus has descendents, then they may number in the thousands or even in the millions today...Yes. And most of them are my cousins, watching carefully everything that I do to help this project forward. If I lie, if I fail, if I muck up, then I shame not only myself, but many others as well...and I dont want to do that. I was hoping to bring respectability and common sense back to research into bloodlines....The theory is a good one, and I found supporting evidence for a son of Jesus named Eli-Kim (Alain) in India...however, Magdalene was NOT their mother, which puts me in direct contradiction with those of the Magdalene camp.....we need to bring common sense back into this research that has been sullied by frauds and greed and nonsense...

We have lost our way and need to get back on track.

I think it is important historically if we can do this, then let's give it a try....It's a lot more solid proof than false genealogy papers like Michael LaFosse produced, or the planting of false evidence and tombs like the recent farce that was exposed here...and a heck of a lot better than the histrionics of a certain middle-aged menopausal woman having hot flashes and visions that she declared as holiness and mystical bloodlines, based on her wishful thinking after getting the idea from my forum .....

I am willing to bet on the DNA as the proof we need.....this CAN be done. There are so many potential sites we can retrieve DNA from....graves of Hebrew Patriarchs in the Holy Land, Egyptian pharaohs (some of whom were thought to be Hebrew Kings) and perhaps one day even DNA from the Shroud of Turin! The prominent DNA Haplo Group of Central Asia (including Hebrews) is not Semitic or Asian, but Indo-European variants of R-1, and I believe this will prove to be the DNA of Jesus as well.....

We have to start somewhere.

I am taking it back, owning it as its originator, and certainly hoping for eventual success.There are so many ways to approach this for starters, not limited to "royal" Merovingian bloodlines. I should think that anyone interested in bloodlines would be excited to know that such a project is possible.....if for no other reason than to disprove the theory of the tomb of Jesus in Kashmir. One way or another, such a project would be a solid step forward for any serious researcher....

Hi Sue,

Sorry, I haven't read your book so I'm a bit lost. In what way do you feel the Merovingian dynasty has any relevance to a possible Jesus bloodline located in India?

Regards,

Spartacus

Hi Spartacus,

"GENEALOGY WITHOUT PROOF IS MYTHOLOGY" (a quote from my book)

Well then, you should read my book! The answers are all in there...the string of events runs something like this:

1. Jesus went to India (before and after crucifixion)
2. He married a local kashmir-Jewish girl and they had at least one son. This girl died young, hence the confusion with Magdalene as the Grail mother. The real mother was lost early to history.
3. This son is verified in several ways:
a. He was met by Saul on the road to Damascus
b. Yuz Asaf/ Jesus and Thomas dedicated temple repairs to this son in Kashmir...
c. the son's name in India and the Holy Land was Eli Mas or Eli Kim. His son ( who would be the grandson of Jesus) is the one who actually became the Grail child when escaping India and probably arriving in Europe with his uncle at an early age...
d. The Merovingian bloodline is connected through this son (or the grandson of the same name) , the name becomes Alain in the European genealogies...thus the connection..

I am especially proud of being the first to make these connections... I hope others will verify through their own research.

Well, i must admit i know nothing about, or have any interest in bloodlines, but you sound like a strong courageous woman and i wish you happiness and fulfillment in your quest.

@ Sheila...thanks for your kind words....I wish I didn't have to sound so hostile and fight for every word I believe in.... but thanks....
extending my hand in friendship....

you don't come over as hostile, you come over as a woman with a mission.

hostile??
you're a fluffy ickle kitten compared to quite a few on this site but anything to raise the level of respect and dignity here is welcome in my book

So is this your subtle way of telling us that you have a Y-chromosome and are, in fact, a man?

You know how DNA analysis works, Sue. Maybe you're playing off the hope that some of the more "gullible" posters here don't know the difference between Y-DNA and mtDNA and will laud you as a "grail child" but I think everyone here is way beyond that level of ignorance by now.



Hey Sue, look at this:

These are returns from a relationship calculator on a genealogical database I use, for two ancestors of mine in the database (one paternal, one maternal) showing lines of descent from Clovis I, the gateway ancestor to the Merovingian dynasty:

Relationship

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is a descendant of the 29th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 9 branches: click here.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 30th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 72 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 31st generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 413 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 32nd generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 2,344 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 33rd generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 8,615 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 34th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 19,052 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 35th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 26,627 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 36th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 24,998 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 37th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 15,190 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 38th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 5,861 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 39th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 1,308 branches: click here to see the first one.

Jean de Foix-Carmaing, vicomte de Caraman is also a descendant of the 40th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 184 branches: click here to see the first one.

Total: 104,673 relationship links

Relationship

William Warren is a descendant of the 35th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 12 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 36th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 941 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 37th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 7,074 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 38th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 23,158 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 39th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 47,331 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 40th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 61,416 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 41st generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 55,079 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 42nd generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 35,204 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 43rd generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 15,981 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 44th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 5,811 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 45th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 2,306 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 46th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 1,006 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 47th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 299 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 48th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 63 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 49th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 20 branches: click here to see the first one.

William Warren is also a descendant of the 50th generation of Clovis Ier le Grand (Mérovingiens), roi des Francs.

* 4 branches: click here.

Total: 255,705 relationship links

A combined total of 360,378 links of descent from Clovis I - 88,664 of which run through Dagobert II. And that's just from two lines in the span of 40-50 generations. But do you know what my percentage of consanguinity is? 0%. Do you know why? Because not one of these lines is direct male to male from beginning to end. Every chain is broken by a female. There is no possible way one could ever look at Clovis' Y-DNA and mine and conclude that we're even related. And I have a Y-chromosome that could potentially be compared to a sample from Clovis, something that you, as a woman, lack in your chemical makeup. You couldn't even establish a Y-link to your own father because you do not have a Y-chromosome.

Do you really think that even the most uninformed yet rationally sane adult couldn't grasp that simple, basic concept? Do you not understand that this is why you aren't taken seriously? The only possible way you could use DNA to provide a link between you and Clovis (or Jesus/Yuz Asaf, for that matter) would be if you could document a complete, unbroken, female-to-female line of descent from Clovis' mother or sister.

And I'll let you in on a little secret, Sue (and not for the first time either) - with at least 360,378 known links to Clovis, I am no stand-out in the Merovingian descent department. Anyone with even a dollop of European ancestry, princes and peasants alike, can trace their descent to at least one medieval monarch with Merovingian antecedents. That includes everyone on this list. That includes anyone you might encounter on the street today, tomorrow, or any other day. So congratulations, Sue, you can save yourself a boatload of money and effort - you ARE a Merovingian descendant, just like everyone else. The statistical odds guarantee it.



The other author in question (who should be familiar to everyone on this forum by now) has never, to my knowledge, claimed descent from "Yuz Asaf" or suggested her own imagined "grail lineage" originated in, or even passed through, Kashmir. Her story is quite different in every detail than yours, though they're both well-grounded in wishful thinking and presumptions of certainty that "fans" will never ask the hard questions that could blow your "claims" to smithereens. You seem to think you have some sort of proprietary rights over the concept of a potential physical bloodline descending from Jesus Christ. I'm afraid that construct was already published years ago by Baigent, Lincoln and Leigh - and when they tried to pursue damages against another author for co-opting their "thematic architecture" they were told in no uncertain terms that they had no legal leg to stand on. Twice.



I was there, Sue - remember? Let me offer you my interpretation. You were harassing the other author on multiple forums and on Amazon alleging that she plagiarized your work, which caused her to get her attorney to send you a cease-and-desist order on pain of a defamation suit for failure to comply. You tried to file a counter-suit yourself, without aid of legal advice, and when the situation snowballed and you had to seek the advice of counsel, you were advised to drop it before you got yourself into more trouble than you could argue your way out of. Remember how you used to fax me pages and pages of legal material? Remember that I gave you the same advice for free that you wound up paying an attorney to tell you? I wasn't about to get dragged into your legal hurricane because I no longer trusted you to leave me out of it after demonstrating to me very plainly that you simply weren't listening. That's why I cut off communication. You're dangerous, Sue, not because of some sinister plot to silence your bloodline claims but because you don't know when to quit. There comes a point where your pissing contests put you in the line of fire for litigation, and I certainly hope you don't really believe that it was your lack of financial resources that stood in the path of "justice" for you. It was the fact that you had no case, you were harassing someone for no qualified reason, and you wouldn't listen when you were told you were heading for calamity.



I'd written previously that you were starting to remind me of that other author. I retract that statement - you've far surpassed her



I certainly hope for your sake that none of them are following your performance here.



Try billions. Statistically, anyone and everyone living in the 1st century CE is either the ancestor of everyone living today, or no-one at all. There is no middle ground.



That would actually be for them to determine, not you.



You can start by offering a convincing explanation about how your DNA claims are actually feasible. Good luck with that.



Oh, lady - you've got a lot of nerve, I'll give you that!







Do you know what would be the result of multiple extractions of a common haplogroup? Do you know what could be discerned from that? Presumption of an unknown and unidentifiable common ancestor who lived tens of thousands of years ago.



I'd suggest that you start by learning about what can and cannot be evidenced from DNA, but I'm quite certain that in reality you already know this. So I'd make the same suggestion to anyone reading this who isn't clear on the particulars themselves.



Serious researchers would recognize the flaws in your logic immediately.

TCP

and the flaws in your logic? First off....regarding that lawsuit...do you recall that author also made claims that I made death threats to her, and for this reason her publisher cancelled her public appearances? That author also accused me of making all the amazon quotes and bad reviews and WRITING IN forums against her....I didn't write those. I can prove that simply and easily with ISP traces.., as any simple ISP examination could quickly prove.... The lawsuit should have included those claims she made about me at amazon, plus about imaginary death threats she accused me of, and I should have included her publishers in the lawsuit and demanded the truth from her own publishers, if they ever made such statements.. if her publishers were also involved as she claimed through her "Anna" persona... those are very serious accusations and I had/have the right to defend myself against such dribble..and I wonder just who was making those posts against her? Were you among them? I wonder what those ISP traces will reveal!

I am shocked that you get your facts so twisted so fast, when it suits you...,,,

Some musings for Easter...crucifixion theories...


http://www.reviewofreligions.org/date/2012/03/

That's odd then, because when the Ice Man DNA was retrieved, they were able to find a direct ancestor living 5,000 years later in the village (near the mountain) where he was retrieved....

There are many similar examples......enough to know that it can be done, and is the right course of action to pursue...

TCP....serious researchers like yourself? Surely you jest.

Quote:
So is this your subtle way of telling us that you have a Y-chromosome and are, in fact, a man?


TCP,, again you show your hostility and argumentative side more than your common sense side...you want to fight for the sake of fighting.....I was in Kashmir...were any male claiments? I knew of the theory of Jesus in Kashmir through a few million Ahmaddi Muslim believers long before popular books started appearing in the west. I didn't even live in the US or Europe at the time and I still have not read "Holy Blood Holy Grail", although I do admit to reading "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" when I lived in New Zealand circa 1998-99..that;s where I met my first Ahmaddi Muslims who discussed these theories with me and got me really interested in looking further..they have been avid supporters and wonderful friends through all this...and they well understand the persecution and resentment towards these ideas..I had a legal basis for asking for the DNA through the Merovingian connections mention on "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" and that's how it all started for me..seriously enough t that I was willing to go to India, live there for several years, and consider evidence there that was not know in the west......all I asked for was the DNA...it would be up to all those males in my family to be availabe for the comparisons.....and many already have their DNA and are ready to come forward..just waiting for moments they can see the comparisons! ..silly boy. Did you not think of that?

FALSE. His mtDNA was sampled and they found 17 out of 240 people who were related. Males don't pass mtDNA to their descendants.



Exactly, which is why you'd better re-tool your story. Again.



Explain yourself then. Explain the determining factors that led to the conclusion that you descend from Yuz Asaf. Show at least the first 25 markers of each (i.e. scan the lab results and post them as an image file. C'mon, Sue, show your work. Show us what the lab determined.



My common sense side tells me that you are completely misrepresenting both the capabilities of DNA analysis and your own experience with it in this case. Which means one of two possibilities exist: (1) you are painfully naïve and resistant to consider facts that might disappoint you, or (b) you are engaged in deliberate obfuscation.

Since you and I have discussed the capabilities of DNA analysis in genealogical studies many times in the past, which one do you think I'm leaning towards?



What does that prove? You still don't have a Y-chromosome.



Yeah, and...? I don't doubt that the Ahmaddis have such a tradition. What does it have to do with your DNA?



Oh, great - let's see those results then! How many marker matches were there? What was the rate of genetic variance? How many mutations, and where did they occur in the marker strand? Which alleles? And how did you establish your "legal basis for asking for the DNA through the Merovingian connections" BEFORE Yuz's DNA was extracted? Or did they just have it lying around waiting for some smart lady like you to come along asking for it?

TCP

Yes, I remember that.



I seem to recall you tried going this route and Amazon said you'd need a court order, but to get the court order you'd need the ISP traces. Now, I could be muddling my facts here, that might have been what Amazon told the other author and that was why she sicked her attorney on you. Either way, the point is that those ISP traces that she would have needed to implicate you, and conversely you would have needed to exonerate yourself, weren't available on request; someone had to initiate a legal process, and I believe it was she who lobbed the first legal bomb in that direction.



You wouldn't need an ISP trace to find my contribution, I signed my own name to my work. Anyone can go on Amazon and see what I wrote about her book, just look for TCP.



Those are my recollections. Sorry.

TCP

Tim, there are still several errors in your recollections....however....I suggest that we stop this and change the topic for Andrew's sake..if you want to continue, let's do it by email or private messages.....
Meanwhile, I have just taken a wonderful Key Lime pie out of the oven and going to lather it with merengue...

I would share with you if you were closer.

No need to re-live the episode, I stepped away from it long ago and prefer it that way.



Well, that's very generous of you Sue, but swimsuit weather is coming fast and I'm avoiding carbs and sugars at the moment. I'd love a little DNA data though...

TCP

I've heard of the so called tomb of Jesus in India,but that's all. I don't recall reading much any where about great christian pilgrameges to India during the Middle Ages or earlier to any supposed tomb of Jesus. People seemed to flock to the Holy Land even today,to Jerusalem,not Kashmir.

As far as DNA goes, you get some from your mother,and from your father,and that's all I know,as I'm no expert. As far as merovingian blood or being descended from Charlemagne,
I have no idea.Dad's side has a family historian who lives in Nuremberg and keeps the family history book.Don't know if my mom's side does that in Hungary.But, I would be more impressed to learn I was descended from some ancient roman soldier who married or had one of my german ancestors as a girl friend, or was related to say Hans Holbein the artist.
Or maybe was a great great grandaughter of Atilla the Hun way back in Hungary.
Don't need any DNA tests for me.Can't afford it,plus various peoples have moved around Europe for centuries, so that makes all of us a mutt in many ways,which I don't mind.
Lots of records and other things have been destroyed due to wars fires,etc.,including in India.
The answer as to whether that really is the tomb of Jesus would be to open it up,and look inside,and test any remains inside,but that will never happen.
It's like the stories of Jesus supposedly going and studying in Tibet.Have no idea if it's true,but whatever the answers are, they may not happen during our lifetime.

Yes. There are two types, nuclear (nDNA) and mitochondrial (mtDNA). Mitochondrial DNA is inherited solely from our mothers and is passed intact through female lines generationally (males don't pass it on to their offspring). Nuclear DNA is comprised of chromosomes from both parents. Males have an YX combination (Y from the paternal side, X from the maternal side) while females have an XX combination (one from each parent). Y chromosomes cannot be passed from father to daughter as it determines gender, it is only passed from male to male. Daughters automatically get their fathers' X and one of their mothers' X's; sons automatically get their fathers' Y and one of their mothers' X's. That's kind of a bare-bones explanation, obviously for purposes of genetics studies there's a lot more complex detail; but for genealogical purposes that's the basic framework needed to interpret lines of descent and to grasp the capabilities and limitations of DNA analysis.



Well, the term "descent" often tends to be misused. Technically to be someone's descendant you must be the "fruit of their loins", so to speak. I am my parents' descendant, and my grandparents' descendant, etc. I am not my uncle's or my aunt's descendant, although we are related collaterally. So many of these DNA testing kits we see advertised on the web purport to prove one's 'descent' from a famous person, and when they get a positive result (meaning several matching alleles with variable numbers of mutations) they notify the customer that their 'descent' is proven, even though all that has been determined is collateral descent from a common ancestor. That common ancestor may have lived hundreds or thousands of years before the famous person they're marketing was ever born.

We are all 'descendants' of ancestors of whose DNA we may or may not carry in traceable amounts, if at all. DNA is not the be-all, end-all, and is in fact more useful for definite determinations of 'no relationship' rather than identifying degrees of possible relationship, which can be broad.



Without a control sample, DNA extraction wouldn't tell us anything useful in identifying the body anyway. All testing would reveal (if uncontaminated DNA could be isolated) is a string of allele markers. If Jesus had known or documented descendants living today that all agreed were genuine, and the DNA from the tomb was deemed to be a match, then one could draw reasonable conclusions based on the authenticity of the documentation. However, all we would be able to do in this instance is identify possible relatives - not necessarily descendants - living today. We still wouldn't know for certain the identity of the body.

TCP

Tim and Holly Dolly,

The idea of Jesus in India for any purpose is of course another historical long shot based upon very scant evidence. To all believing Christians, this is dismissed immediately without any further consideration.However, there is stronger evidence for Jesus in India than there is for Magdalene the bride of Jesus, or Magdalene's grave in France.

I wont post a long string of links here. You are capable of doing your own research. If you go to YouTube for example,
and search "Jesus in India"--"Jesus in Kashmir" et cetera, there are a dozen or so documentaries to start you off.

For further reading, I would recommend amazon.com authors like Holger Kersten who researched this many years ago, and mentioned Notovich and Tibetan connections found during his research. I felt I contributed a major breakthrough when I found the name of a son of Jesus in Kashmir, Eli Kim (EliMas)...this is a variation of the name Alain in Europe, and Alain is the link, the desposyni identified by Gardner and others....that is an exciting breakthrough! A link between Kashmir and Europe is finally established.

I have mentioned the claims of Bashrat Shaheen in Kashmir. For centuries he was the caretaker of the tomb, Roza Bal. He made the claims that he was descended from Jesus, who was Yuz Asaf buried in the tomb. He had supporting evidence that he showed to several people. Just the week we were to meet to discuss the DNA, he died and all documentation in his office was stolen. However, there are still some online sites up that carry interviews and further information about him. He has sons, and ideally they would be next best for DNA testing. I have been in touch with one of the sons for many years. He is now a middle-aged physician living in Riyadh Saudi Arabia now, the very heart of Wahab-Salafi fundamentalism that wants to destroy Roza Bal and all tombs. He is afraid to go further with publicity or DNA testing because of threats made against his family by fundamentalists....no doubt the same ones who killed his father...I have place most of the emphasis in my writings on the need to preserve what remains..whether the tombs are in Israel or Kashmir...we are losing them fast. That should be everyone's concern.

In my conversations with the son, I was urged to continue the DNA Project...it would be less dangerous for me than for him, or for anyone else in the region..To my current understanding, he has finally got his DNA. If any DNA is ever forthcoming from Yuz Asaf, he is prepared for a comparison...so are other Kashmiris . But they cannot proceed on their own because of fundamentalism..

So we have Bashrat Shaheen insisting this IS the tomb of Jesus and he IS a descendent...In the past few years, I have been to Washington DC and the National Geographic headquarters 2 times, plus years of correspondence with them and with India...trying to get Nat Geo to take this on as one of their Genome Projects...India agreed, the Chief Minister of Kashmir agreed...but the fundamentalists made threats and the project could not be launched. I have little chance except to keep begging and hoping for a breakthrough.

I know little about DNA. In fact I learn more about it from TCP than from any other source! (Thank you Tim). I explain all this so you understand this is a lot more than a mere "ego" trip to Kashmir..OH! I almost forgot! Before Laurence Gardner died, we were in regular touch several times a week. He sent me to the right people at Nat Geo and he encouraged the project, although publicly he never supported the "Jesus in India" theory. This did not prevent him from extending help and friendship to me. In Kashmir was carved in stone the name of Jesus' son, Eli Kim (Eli Mar)..This is translated to Alain in Europe. Alain is the same name found in several European genealogies -children & grandchildren of Jesus. I think that is very exciting news....and good reason to continue the research.

Shasta

And your source for this idea that "Eli Kim" or "Eli Mas" is a variation of the name "Alain" is...?



What you don't seem to be understanding, Sue, is that there are upwards of 80, 90, 100 or more generations between someone who died 2,000 years ago and people living today. The rate of genetic variance due to allele mutation over that many generations would render any results inconclusive. In the best case scenario, what could be assumed (not necessarily proven) is shared descent from a common ancestor; the rate of genetic variance between the two samples would need to be known in order to estimate how many generations back (from the older sample) the common ancestor might have lived. With a 2,000 year span between the two samples, that generational range is not going to be in the single or double digits, it's going to be measured in hundreds if not thousands of generations. And we still wouldn't know if Yuz Asaf was Jesus, there is simply no way to know that.



Bashrat Shaheen may sincerely believe that, but DNA testing isn't going to prove it. It can't.



Laurence Gardner engaged in outright fraud. That's one association I wouldn't brag about.



The name Alain has Breton origins (Brythonic or P-Celtic, Indo-European language family). Where did you get the idea that it is a translation of Eli (Kim, Mar or Mas) which is a Semitic language (Afro-Asiatic language family) given that they have entirely different meanings?

TCP

Eli-same as Heli-(of the Elamites) was Biblical son of Hellish, the keeper of the treasures or vaults..in Ethiopia this name is Ebna La Hakim (son of the wise). In the Talmud it is Massakhet Keilim.Eli can also be a feminine name, a Nordic short form of Helena. It is also the short form of Elijah, Elisha, Eliezer, Elhanan or Elimelech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_%28name%29


The transliteration is Alain (fr.)/Alan/Alane. It is of unknown origin, carried to Europe, and numerous differing etymologies attributed to the name. See the discussion about these transliterations at http://www.behindthename.com/name/eli-3

and more about Alain at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_%28name%29

There were other titles associated with this child...Hiranya (Sansk.-something golden-something of the north).
However, these, like the use of Eli Kim/EliMar, are descriptive titles, not actual names, and one person usually had several titles. During the centuries just before and after Jesus, it was popular for 'important' people to have a Greek name, a Roman name, and even a Sanskrit name!

I will go back and read your post again to see if there is something else I can explain..

I do not know how far the DNA testing can take this.....I am not the expert here. I can tell you that National Geographic believed strongly enough in this project to be willing to invest...and they invented the whole Genome Project, so I think we can trust their judgement on this..

The emphasis should be on getting as much of the ancient DNA collected as possible...These tombs are not going to last forever. Once the samples are on file, perhaps some future technology can tell us more....however without any samples, we will never know. The tombs of several Biblical patriarchs still remain intact but are under threat.....the tomb of Sarah and Abraham can yield DNA, if they have been left undisturbed...what frightens me is the thought that they may be desecrated at any time and if we don't act, how much historical info will be lost forever? That is the tragedy.

One day in the future, DNA may be recovered from the Shroud of Turin. It can then be compared with DNA from tomb of Yuz Asaf....THAT would be an exciting research project!

Bashrat Shaheen had ancient scrolls with the direct decent from Yuz Asaf/Jesus. If those scrolls ever surface again...it is a way of slowly building a case for (or against)...Every little bit adds to the research. Don't dismiss anything until we have exhausted all these sources..

I wouldn't exactly call these "transliterations", I'd call them "diminutives" or "nicknames":

ELI (3)
GENDER: Feminine
USAGE: Norwegian, Danish
Meaning & History
Norwegian and Danish short form of ELIZABETH or ELIN
Related Names
See All Relations
Show Family Tree
OTHER LANGUAGES: Jela, Jelka (Croatian), Alena, Eliška, Lenka (Czech), Betje, Elise, Elly, Els, Else, Elsje, Heleentje, Ilse, Isa, Lies, Liese, Liesje, Lisa (Dutch), Belle, Bess, Bessie, Beth, Betsy, Bette, Bettie, Betty, Buffy, Elisa, Elise, Eliza, Ella, Ellie, Elly, Elsa, Elsie, Elyse, Ibbie, Issy, Izzy, Laney, Lena, Libbie, Libby, Liddy, Lilian, Lilibet, Lilibeth, Lillian, Lisa, Lise, Liz, Liza, Lizbeth, Lizette, Lizzie, Lizzy, Nell, Tetty, Bettye, Elissa, Elle, Leesa, Liana, Liliana, Lillia, Lisette, Nelda, Nella, Nelle, Nellie, Nelly (English), Shelena (English (African American)), Leena, Liisa, Liisu (Estonian), Eliisa, Elisa, Elsa, Heli, Leena, Liisa, Liisi (Finnish), Babette, Élise, Lili, Lilian, Liliane, Lise, Lilianne, Lisette (French), Alena, Bettina, Elisa, Elise, Elli, Elsa, Else, Ilsa, Ilse, Isa, Lena, Lene, Leni, Lies, Liesa, Liese, Liesel, Liesl, Lili, Lilli, Lisa, Lisbeth (German), Bözsi, Erzsi, Liza, Zsóka, Ili, Ilka, Ilonka (Hungarian), Sibéal (Irish), Elisa, Isa, Liliana, Lisa, Liana (Italian), Elzė (Lithuanian), Ibb (Medieval English), Eliza, Lena, Liliana (Polish), Belinha, Liliana, Elisa, Liana (Portuguese), Lílian (Portuguese (Brazilian)), Lenuța, Liliana (Romanian), Alyona, Lena, Liza, Lizaveta (Russian), Elise, Ella, Lilly, Lis, Lisa, Lisbet, Lise (Scandinavian), Beileag, Lileas, Lilias, Lillias (Scottish), Alena, Eliška, Lenka (Slovak), Alena, Jelka, Špela, Alenka (Slovene), Elisa, Liliana, Isa (Spanish), Elsa, Lena, Lennie, Lenny (Swedish)

These also pertain to the feminine name "Elizabeth", which no one doubts is Hebrew in origin. Neither is it a mystery as to why Europeans started taking Biblical names after conversion to Christianity.



Nothing linking the name to anything Hebrew here either.



Whether "Eli Kim" or "Eli Mar" are given names or titles is really immaterial to your assertion that the name "Alain" or "Alan" derives from any form of the Hebrew word "Eli".

TCP

I provided the link that makes the same assertion....we can go 'round and round with this and accomplish nothing. There is a man in London who helped me research old coins..We were looking for titles that might represent Jesus in Kashmir. He argued with other numismatics over the dates and names on most every coin...and he is an Oxford professor world-renown for his knowledge of old coins! It is the same with names, TCP. In fact these professors disagree so much that I had to include a disclaimer in my book stating that the professionals ideas may change over time. I included my sources to be very clear where the info came from...


I think the emphasis here is on mention of children of Jesus. By any name, Hebrew or European, we are talking about sons of Jesus. That is what the emphasis is on....and what the research is focused upon. On the road to Damascus, Paul/Saul wrote of having met a son of Jesus called Eli-Mar, who was associated with the magi who met yearly....the suffix 'Mar' refers to magicians and Saul was afraid of him......In Kashmir we have a son of Jesus called Eli Kim, or Eli, the 'keeper of the treasures"..after the Biblical Eli with the same title..Were these one and the same son? Or two different sons? That is the question. Because some linguists have established links between some Hebrew and European names (most of the Welsh language is Hebrew) including a transliteration of Eli Elhim to Alain, I believe they are one and the same son....by any other name, wed still have a historical son for Jesus! If you believe there is no connection, then we have TWO sons (or grandsons) of Jesus to consider, one with a Hebrew name, and one with a European name..

Which link?



Because... you say so?



And where is your evidence for all of this, Sue?



Oh, sure! Who in the hell do you think you're kidding?



Well, show us the EVIDENCE for this, Sue! Show us your sources! C'mon, you're being called out on this in public. Defend your good name and reputation. Let's see what you've got.

TCP

TCP....I suggest you take this conversation in a different direction. In addition to Eli-Kim, and Eli-Mar, the children in question also had the names (titles) Toraman and Hiranya. One of the sons was sent into prison or exile...his son (would be a grandson of Jesus) was hidden away. An uncle discovered him one day being raised in a potter's hut. He arranged with the priests to take the child to a safe place to be raised and educated. Did the child go from India to Europe? England? France? The name Hiranya appears on maps of old Europe, where it means 'the northern lands". It also means 'something golden', and also means something to do with potters and spinning wheels ....And so whether we are looking for Eli-Elain, Hiranya, Josephus....or any other name....we are looking for a child and for a name or title that comes closest to a correct description. In the case of Hiranya, all the descriptions in Sanskrit might apply to him...Was he Eli? Alain? Josephus?

I answered you and I gave you a link to a site that provides transliterations. They are only partially helpful. I have told you of Saul's reference to a son of Jesus....and the carvings in India....then there are the charts by historians like Hugh Montgomery who mention Alain as the grandson of Jesus..Did the son Eli Kim take on the European version of the name-Alain when he was taken away?

I posted three permutations as genealogy charts in my book for anyone interested in pursuing further, including one by Hugh Montgomery. ..stating clearly that evidence needs to be gathered and all are reasonable guesses for now. I have done my best and I can do no more. This is not an exact science. If that is not good enough for you....then cuss away at me, or write your own book...I cannot think of anything else we can say about this... In ALL the research into RLC, bloodlines, holy grails, templars....one must draw inferences from what historical remains we have...Can you show me any ANY historical book that does not connect the dots in unique ways, depending upon the author's interpretation? We dont have all the exact answers. That's why it's called research. I have laid out everything I could to help others who will follow...They may make breakthroughs that will change all this....I am hopeful someone does! That is called progress.

And that is what we all hope for. I am realizing that this entire line of 'questioning" from you is uncalled for and unnecessary. It's one thing to actually read the book and ask the author intelligent questions.....it's quite another to make mindless attacks on a mere passage or two out of context and without understanding the entire background to it.....such as the search for names...

I would have to rewrite the entire book here in order for you to grasp it, and I cannot and will not do that....I just dont have enough time. Nor do I see any other of Arcadia's authors being put through this, and I dont want to get suckered into endless and mindless head games with anyone here...so perhaps I will stick to posting the occasional clever little quote....that saves us all a lot of precious breadth and time. I'm sure you dont have the time for this either TCP...Please have a great day.