Arcadia Discussion Zone

You don't know that Richard himself chose how his funerary image would be decorated, or even when those symbols were painted on it. But if someone (whether Richard himself or someone else) saw him as a Prince of Jerusalem then the imagery perfect sense.

TCP

The "Prince of Jerusalem" would be of Jewish bloodline ...since David was the father of Solomon
and Jesus was a descendant

Who could be King of Jerusalem if they were not a descendant of David?

Richard was a long haired king following in step with the Merovingians

In the medieval mindset? No. The Crusaders established a Christian kingdom in Jerusalem and it wasn't based on claimed descent from David or from Jesus. That was an incorrect assumption made in HBHG to qualify their Jesus/Magdalene bloodline scenario, it has no basis in historical thinking.

TCP

The Crusades happened for several reasons.....primarily because the Muslim invaders had destroyed churches there previously and were threatening to do so again...Many French nobles knew the Holy Land better than their own country...they owned homes there, were involved in businesses and trade, and married into noble families of Jerusalem....they felt an urgent need to protect their homes and their churches..the Des Marets family have several excellent family sources about their lives.......

SOURCE 1: "The Demarest Family: Volume 1", by the Demarest Family Association, 1964
SOURCE 2: Mormon Ancestral File Submission #AF89-101731, by Joan Marie Mason Luckett, 384-A Hogan Branch Road, Goodlettsville, Tennessee 37072


http://www.colleengenealogy.net/desmarets2.html


"On October 18, 1009, Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the complete destruction of the church. It is believed that Al-Hakim "was aggrieved by the scale of the Easter pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which was caused specially by the annual miracle of the Holy Fire within the Sepulchre. The measures against the church were part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine and Egypt, which involved a great deal of other damage."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre


Baldwin and Godfrey rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and were laid to rest in sarcophagus at the Church entrance. Their tombs can be seen in older sketches of the Church, but their bodies were dumped out and discarded in the 1800's by religious zealots...I wish their bodies had remained long enough to get DNA...However, many of the relatives are in sarcophagus in St. Denis, and I always hoped their DNA would one day be available to science...

And this, also from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_I_of_Jerusalem


"He is said to have been very tall and much larger than his brother…He was of rather light complexion, with dark-brown hair and beard. His nose was aquiline and his upper lip somewhat prominent. The lower jaw slightly receded, although not so much that it could be considered a defect. He was dignified in carriage and serious in dress and speech. He always wore a mantle hanging from his shoulders…[He] was neither stout nor unduly thin, but rather of a medium habit of body. Expert in the use of arms, agile on horseback, he was active and diligent whenever the affairs of the realm called him."

Your right Shasta there are relative bodies who still are around supposedly

Using the DNA of a family member may give some insight
The Angevins are interesting

I know Blanche Castile had no reluctance to name her one son Pere Dagobert
seemed like she had know problems with the Merovingians

Blanche Castile and St Louis placed the story of Noah in the church of Chartres
and the Giants are there
was there a Race of Giants as talked about in the Bible Genesis ....who were they

They are in the Dead Sea Scrolls ...in the Book of Enoch
Fragments from The Book of Giants 4Q203, 1Q23, 2Q26, 4Q530-532, 6Q8
one of the giants is Gilgamesh, the Babylonian hero

They had great knowledge but they abused the Earth and its riches
and in their dreams they saw their doom by the Great Flood

Contrary to popular belief no one is despoiling old tombs to extract DNA samples.



In the case of the Boulognes you'd be hard pressed to find a direct male-line descendant living today to provide a Y-DNA match. The family has been extinct in the male line for centuries.

TCP

TCP, just give me a spoon and some time, and I'll go get those DNA samples.

However, the old tombs ARE being destroyed for reasons other than DNA..

Lovuian, St. Denis is chock full of old bodies , I recall about 200 royals are buried there..half of them supposedly direct descendants from King Merovich..Dagobert founded the Church
"Founded in the 7th century by Dagobert I on the burial place of Saint Denis, a patron saint of France..."

and the bloodline of many famous and royal rulers are there...I proposed that project several years ago...(getting their DNA)...and I still
have not met any resistance from any Church when the projects are mentioned. I have to go to France and make formal application through the Catholic Church, as they make the final decision what happens on their Church property...once formalities are followed, the DNA Project can begin there...I lack time and money to continue..

This is a page about the Church in France..scroll down and you will see some of the sarcophagus...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Denis_Basilica

I find that rather difficult to take seriously, Sue, given that the Catholic Church hasn't owned the Basilica of Saint-Denis since 1790. The property is owned by the State and managed under the direction of the Centre des Monuments Nationaux. Also there are no actual human remains beneath the sarcophagi anymore, the bones of France's monarchs were disinterred during the Revolution and thrown into giant pits full of quicklime where they dissolved for the most part. What could be salvaged thirty years later was put into an ossuary, with no means of identifying whose bones were whose in the meager haul. Call me a skeptic, but I sincerely doubt you've ever made inquiries or proposals in this regard.

TCP

Well maybe someday we may know Shasta
and then there are the Hasburgs

TCP You must have read that information on the same link that I posted above, as it's all part of the same article...most of the bodies were thrown into a mass grave during the French Revolution...however, not all the bodies met this fate...and not all royals with a Merovingian or Carolinian (actually branches of the same family) were buried at St. Denis. Where ever there exists even a slim chance to recover DNA, I think it should be undertaken.....and yes, there are bodies at St. Denis....royals who died AFTER the Revolution were also interred there..

http://royaldish.com/index.php?topic=6500.0

Some of what was taken from St. Denis was returned to the Church.. I have made my inquiries through family members who are also interested in the DNA Project (of course), St. Denis is but a small part of what is still currently available worldwide for DNA studies..for example, there are bone relics purportedly of Magdalene and of St. Thomas that could yield DNA...all of this must go through the Church...it is a huge and daunting task, certainly one that I am not in a position to take on...I merely make the suggestions about the possibilities, and make initial inquiries..



There are still remaining opportunities to get DNA studies in France.........
The Louvre
This exceptionally large museum and gallery is in central Paris on the banks of the Seine and holds a relatively small but particularly interesting collection of funerary monuments rescued from various Paris churches, during the destruction of the Revoltion. Shown is the magnificent monument to Phillipe Pot, constructed in 1480 during his life time (Room 10) and the monument which covered the entrails of King Charles lV and Jeanne d'Evreux, dated 1371. (Room 9)

This latter may require some explanation: bodies of the great were sometimes dismembered at this time and the body, heart and entrails buried in different places with separate monuments. Heart monuments are found occasionally, such as that to Richard the Lionheart at Rouen, but entrails monuments are rare. Charles and Jeanne are represented holding a leather bag containing their entrails; despite this gruesome detail they are depicted with their eyes open.
source: http://www.churchmonumentssociety.org/France_Ile_de_France.html

lovuian, quite right.....each branch of the family, each branch of history, is another huge field of study...
The mind boggles!!

TCP, I recall a few years back, you mentioned that you were getting (or did get) your DNA..
Just curious what it revealed and if you found it surprising or interesting in any way?

The bodies of Louis XVIII and Charles, Duc de Berry, the heart of Louis XVII, and bone fragments thought to be those of Louis XVI. That's it as far as identifiable remains go for dead Capetians interred at Saint-Denis after the Revolution. Everything else is in a jumble in a bone-box, unidentifiable. The post-revolution Orléans necropolis is at Dreux. Capetian remains aren't going to get you an isolated "Merovinigian" Y-DNA strand, sorry.

Some Merovingians were interred elsewhere - Clovis I, Childebert I, Chilperic I, Chlothaire II and Childeric II (at St. Germain-des-Prés) and Chlothaire III (thought originally to be at Chelles though now questionable). The Normans sacked and burned Saint-Germain-des-Prés in 885 and looted the royal graves. The church wasn't rebuilt for another century, and the funeral monuments for the Merovingian rulers, which date only to the 12th century, may not align with the original (now empty) tomb sites. The burial mound of Childeric I was found near Saint Brice de Tournai in 1653 and looted for its contents. It isn't known whether or not the human remains were re-interred there or elsewhere (he was a pagan and thus disqualified for Christian burial) or discarded, or simply lost.

So whether or not you feel that DNA "ought" to be recovered is immaterial; you'd be hard-pressed to actually find identifiable male remains from which to extract a Y-DNA sample, and you're certainly not going to get permission to go digging from the Catholic Church as the properties are owned by the French State.



Yes, a jumble of unidentified bones fished out of two large pits covered with quicklime for three decades. On the off-chance that viable samples could be extracted, you'd need a verified sample from a male Merovingian for comparison in order to ID them. Again, one can reasonably assume that the majority of the remains from which Y-DNA could be recovered would be from Capetians, which isn't going to help ID Merovingians. If it were an "either-or" scenario that would be one thing, but it isn't.



Really, which "family members" would those be? And since you've already identified them, why don't you simply ask them for a blood sample? If you're satisfied that you're dealing with bona fide "Merovingians" you'd get a much cleaner and more complete sequence from living people. Then you'd have a control sample with which to compare all those bones in the Saint Denis ossuary once you've raised the tens of millions of dollars you'd need for this operation. Then perhaps the Centre des Monuments Nationaux might be willing to talk to you.



And if they did, all you would have are a couple of DNA sequences and no means of making an identification without a control sample. Which I've explained in painstaking detail to you more than once, but I suppose you're still operating under the same misconceptions by choice.



Nope. In France those remains are state property, not church property. You may come up with suggestions but you're painfully ill-equipped to consider possibilities. What you're thinking is possible is impossible.

TCP

Funerary monuments. Made of stone, emptied of their contents two centuries ago.

TCP

TCP....I think you are right (but of course---you must always be right)...let's just forget discussing DNA..as you so blatantly pointed out...I am painfully inadequate to engage in these conversations with you......Sorry to have butted in on a conversation between you and Lovuian..it wont happen again...

I'll keep conversations about DNA within my own family..they are more keen on finding the answers..

http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.demarest/285.2/mb.ashx

I have the last burial plot in the first Des Marets family cemetery in the USA..I'm very proud to be buried among these ancestors...to even KNOW one's bloodline is quite an accomplishment ....since there has been so much historical theft and destruction of evidence.. However, we (the entire DesMarets family worldwide) will continue to find ways to build the DNA catalog....and you are right, it is daunting and expensive.....and it will eventually include DNA from the tomb of Jesus in Kashmir...but then you dont believe in that either....so no point in carrying on here..closed minds dont learn anything.....they just keep ranting against that which they dont understand or support...I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with an unarmed man.

Have a nice day. All the best,
Shasta

Sorry things didn't go your way, Sue.

TCP

TCP....Or may I call you Tim, since you insist on calling me Sue....."my way"??? Really? Ahhhhhh You must feel like quite the champion...You win my dear...You have already proven my point.

Sue, for several years now you've pursued this DNA scheme of yours, knowing full well that the results you "seek" are impossible to determine without documentary evidence. At some point we have to conclude that the only reason you're touting unworkable schematics (which have been explained to you over and over and over again) is because it feeds your "Indiana Sue" legend when people who have an honest ignorance of the use and limitations of DNA analysis fawn over you. You remind me in many ways of another author we both used to criticize for the same sort of posturing.

I'm not weighing in on the veracity of your Roza Bal theories, they don't hold much interest for me. But when you're crossing over into all this "grail lineage" stuff and you're misrepresenting the capabilities of DNA sampling to increase your own exposure, you should expect from now on to be called out on your scientific errors and claims to access you clearly don't have. That's Dan Brown's style of hype and it's silly.

And nobody has to take my word for anything, all they have to do is read up on DNA analysis, what results can be expected, and what results can't. It's really that simple.

TCP

P.S. And, by the way, emotive and histrionic PMs telling me how "everybody" on this forum wants me gone is pretty lame coming from an adult.

Shasta that was an awesome read on the Des Marets ....thanks

Only the ones who can`t face reality and fact.

The little poem is about a fish on a grill - that is the pun because a

"grill" is the pattern on which it was written. A "grill" or "grillade" is a code.

How good was the French of Johann Orth?

The "gril" is a torture instrument for frying your foes on, turning them from time to time...ask St Vincent, that's what happened to him.

It`s from the book about Jules Verne and RLC (but not in reference to the Sot Pecheur) -

he says that a "grillade" is a code.

Quand on parle de grille (avec un e) dans le contexte d'un code, on traduit ca par "grid" en Anglais. Les cryptologues Anglais parlent souvent de "substitute alphabet grids"