An Introductional Priory of Sion Theory

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 4:38 pm

http://www.adolphus.nl/xus/antonfrancg.html

Frasne-le-Château (83 F3)
Parochiekerk Saint Antoine l'Ermite
In de parochiekerk (1774) Saint Antoine l'Ermite (1774) staat dit Antoniusbeeld uit de 19e eeuw.
Gouden mantel met gestileerde bloemmotieven. Leuk varkentje met los klokje aan halsband.
De dag van Antonius wordt er gevierd, maar het is me nog onduidelijk hoe.

http://diaconos.unblog.fr/2009/01/03/saint-antoine-lhermite-abbe-251-356-memoire/

Le 17 janvier, l’Église célèbre dans sa liturgie la mémoire de saint Antoine l’hermite, abbé (à ne pas confondre avec saint Antoine de Padoue) Antoine se fixa dans le désert (Égypte) à vingt ans, après avoir entendu lire dans l’Évangile : » Si tu veux être parfait, va, vends ce que tu as, donne-le aux pauvres et suis-moi. » Il y vécut près d’un siècle ! De nombreux disciples le suivirent dans cette vie d’austérité qui donne accès à l’intimité du Dieu vivant. Il est considéré comme étant le fondateur de l’érémitisme chrétien. Sa vie nous est connue par le récit qu’en a fait Athanase d’Alexandrie vers 360.

http://www.librairiecatholique.com/t_objet/statue-de-saint-antoine-ermite-34645-decor-antique-patine-34645.asp

Statue de saint Antoine ermite
Décor antique patiné
Présentation de l'éditeur :
Une magnifique statue de saint Antoine ermite de finition décor antique patiné. Réalisé en résine acrylique cette statue offre une très bonne résistance. Réalisée dans un atelier de moulages religieux existant depuis 1876.

etc., etc., etc.

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 4:42 pm

http://pmirebeau.free.fr/

Antoine le Grand, Antoine d'Égypte, Antoine l'Ermite ou saint Antoine est considéré comme le fondateur de l'érémitisme chrétien. Sa vie nous est connue par le récit qu'en a fait Athanase d'Alexandrie vers 360. Il serait né vers 251 et mort vers 356 à l'âge de 105 ans, entre les bras de ses deux disciples bien-aimés, Macaire l'Ancien ou Macaire d'Égypte et Amathas.
Fête : 17 janvier.

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_98=REPR&VALUE_98=saint%20Antoine%20de%20Padoue&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1

Domaine sculpture ; croyances - coutumes
Dénomination statue
Auteur/exécutant
Titre Saint Antoine ermite
Période création/exécution 16e siècle ; 17e siècle (?)
Lieu de conservation Rouen ; musée Flaubert & d'Histoire de la Médecine
Numéro d'inventaire 997.2.697 OA

http://sites.google.com/site/saintblaise37/chonique-2011/villaineslesrochersfetesaintantoine

Saint Antoine l'ermite † vers 356, est considéré comme le fondateur de l'érémitisme chrétien. Il vécut dans le désert et sa vie fut une méditation constante et une prière assidue.

etc., etc., etc.

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 4:43 pm

url]http://fr.topic-topos.com/saint-antoine-ermite-saint-peran[/url]

Saint Antoine Ermite
Adresse : Église Saint-Pierre-Saint-Péran, Saint-Péran, France

http://peintures.murales.free.fr/fresques/Italie/Trentin/castellotesino_ippolito.htm

Saints Jean Baptiste et Antoine l'ermite

etc., etc., etc.

TCP

lovuian · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 5:08 pm

fmh999 wrote:

The church is not as innocent as it may look like. True that the decoration is mainly one thing: decoration. But tell me the number of churches in France where you can find the (custome made/amend) phrase VENEZ A MOI VOUS TOUS QUI SOUFFREZ ET QUI ETES ACCABLES ET.....etc. or PAR CE SIGNE TU LE VAINCRAS..

And no, this is not that the priests "just" changed these phrases out of "nothing".

It is also no coincidence which statues they have chosen to be present in the church.

Wow Fmh
I so agree with you
I have been through thousands of churches
and this one is not as innocent as it may look like
so agree

Rosslyn is unique too

At one point before the edict Catholics could be Freemasons

The Church has prohibited its members from being Freemasons since In Eminenti Apostolatus in 1738. Since then, the Vatican has issued several papal bulls banning membership of Catholics from Freemasonry under threat of excommunication

I for one have been in a catholic cemetery which goes back before this edict ...there was a free mason section in the cemetery....You can't tell me that all Catholic Freemasons just left Freemasonry after the edict
it could be why membership was Secret in Freemasonry :wink:

How would the church know if a priest was in a Secret order be it Freemasonry or Rosicrucian...the only way would be if the Church had spies within ...hmmm

Benjamin Franklin and George Washington were Freemasons and yet the Catholic Monarchs of France helped supported America's fight for Independence

The Catholic Church argues that the philosophy of French Freemasonry (the Grand Orient, not the dominant variety of Freemasonry or the branch that is active in the English-speaking world) is antithetical to Christian doctrine and that it is at many times and places anti-clerical in intent.

The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia argued that some of the ceremonial in the Scottish Rite is anti-Catholic.[4] However this claim does not appear in subsequent editions

The Masonic use of Biblical imagery was seen in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia as being done in such a way as to deny the revelation of Christianity.[6] However this complaint was not included in subsequent editions

In 1974 Cardinal Franjo Seper, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, sent a letter which seemed to relax the previous absolute ban on Freemasonry[7][8] which caused confusion[9] and led many Catholics to become Freemasons

American Freemasons are consistent advocates of the Freedom of Religion, as found in the First Amendment[19] of the US Constitution. The idea that the establishment clause means a strict separation of church and state is interpreted by the Catholic Church as a veiled attack on its place in public life

Well into the Nineteenth Century, the Papacy continued to assert a divinely-ordained right to appoint civil rulers and depose them. It called opposition to this principle "Religious Indifferentism" by which no religion was acknowledged as true or revealed. And it rightly saw Freemasonry as a leader in the cause of popular sovereignty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Freemasonry_within_Christianity

There definitely is a war going on even to this day
St. Louis parish wins control of church from archdiocese
http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/st-louis-parish-wins-control-church-archdiocese
Parishioners of a Polish Catholic church in St. Louis are celebrating after a judge ruled last week that Archbishop Robert Carlson and the St. Louis archdiocese have no right to claim control of their parish and its property because of a unique 19th century legal contract.

The decision, which came after almost a decade of dispute over St. Stanislaus Kostka Church, was issued Thursday in a 50-page ruling by St. Louis Circuit Court Judge Bryan Hettenbach.

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 5:09 pm

Baffled-mate wrote:

It looks like, as I stated earlier, that it is unlikely we are to agree on this. Indeed, although my French and Latin are not good, I did check on both listings for Anthony the Great to be recorded as Anthony the Hermit, and on official listings and historical documents, it does not occur. The Vatican listing of Saints do not record him as such, and in French the out of the Two common titles St Anthony of Egypt or St. Anthony the Great. The search engines for the French Language, are the same as for the English, so hit the same problem as I mentioned earlier.

Amazing, isn't it, that two people can enter the same search terms into the same search engines and come up with such vastly different results?

I suppose I'll just have to demonstrate for you, and anyone reading this thread, right here.

Baffled-mate wrote:

In French the most common title for him is actually St. Antoine le Grand de l’Egypte. Obviously, roughly translates as ‘St. Anthony the Great of Egypt, which encases both his primary titles, and doesn’t mention ‘Hermit’ at all.

I suppose I'll need to demonstrate that as well, for the edification of anyone else following the thread.

Baffled-mate wrote:

In addition, the focal book that was written in Latin and was used throughout by both Priests and Artisans to insure that a depiction of a particular Saint was correct, was of course the The GOLDEN LEGENDS, Compiled by Jacobus de Voragine, Archbishop of Genoa, 1275 First Edition Published 1470, ENGLISHED by WILLIAM CAXTON, First Edition 1483. Here is clearly described as simply Anthony of Egypt.

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/vorag.html

IACOBUS DE VORAGINE
HISTORIA DE SANCTO ANTONIO

Antonius cum XX esset annorum et audiret legi in ecclesia: "Si vis perfectus esse, vade et vende omnia, quae habes, et da pauperibus", omnia sua vendens, pauperibus erogavit et eremiticam vitam duxit.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/golden000.htm

The Golden Legend
The Life of Anthony of Egypt

Saint Anthony was born in Egypt of good and religious father and mother, and when he was but twenty years old, he heard on a time in the church read in the gospel, that said: If thou wilt be perfect go sell all that thou hast and give it to poor men; and then according thereto he sold all that he had, and gave it to the poor people and became an hermit.

Nowhere in Voragine's text is Anthony "described as simply Anthony of Egypt." "Born in Egypt" and "became a hermit", otherwise known simply as "St. Anthony."

Baffled-mate wrote:

Even if for some reason, the local area of France also used the term ‘the Hermit’ to describe him, it is not the primary version of his name in French, Latin or English (that being ‘le Grand’), neither is it the secondary most common version of his name (that being ‘de l’Egypte’), in French, Latin or English, but it requires a believe that they used a local ‘Nick-name’ for him, that of ‘The Hermit’. As it really doesn’t appear in any of the official listings in Latin, French or English.

That's an assumption and a value judgment on your part, and I'm prepared to spend a good deal of time today demonstrating that your judgment is false, and perhaps motivated by the need to preserve your "theory."

Baffled-mate wrote:

Even if we accept that this is local phrase used, it still does not explain the other discrepancies of the statue. The details of icons and statues are important in Church imagery, as we have both agreed. St. Anthony of Padua will always be seen carrying a Lily, not a rose, pansy, buttercup or coconut. That is because it is his symbol, and it is there so he can be identified. St. Christopher is seen carrying Christ, not a rubber ring, a plank or his shopping. (Sorry, I am not being sarcastic, just the idea sounded humorous in my head). As such, St. Anthony the Great is NOT depicted without a ‘T’ being seen on him somewhere, either on his shoulder, or commonly on the tip of his staff. Yet, I cannot see it. But, as mentioned, I haven’t visited, so it may be just out of view (again not being sarcastic). But we do have a staff, which does not represent the iconic staff that is identified with St. Anthony the Great, which is a staff topped with a ‘T’ or ‘Crucifix’ (the later because the Egyptian Church believed Christ was crucified on a T shaped cross). All we have to really identify him as St. Anthony the Great is the pig at the bottom, and a belief in that, for some reason, Sauniere decided not to describe him as ‘the Great’ or ‘of Egypt’, but by a name not mentioned in Latin or the Catholic Listings.

I just posted a whole slew of images that prove, once again, you're out of your depth on this one and struggling to preserve your theory. I can go on all day if needed.

TCP

lovuian · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 5:31 pm

Baffled-mate wrote:

jlockest wrote:

fmh999 wrote:

Check once the story about the LVLC written and distributed by Boudet. It is not bad to also read it to "understand" the "nonsense" put....

Lets face it: the curious thing is HOW some priests in the region made money (big money) and ON WHAT they spent it. If you still say this is "the normal way we see 100 000 times each day" then fine....but these 2 things are fact and together they form the base of the mystery.

Yes, that RLC is "special" and that there is a kind of "treasure" was also communicated before the PoS. But I prefer to talk about Plantard, Chérisey and de Sède......

I'm not saying there's nothing about RLC that isn't odd. I've read some of the explanations about how BS got his money.
I'm just after what motive people see in BS placing clues in his church, when AFAIK, those clues were largely ignored for 40+ years. If I want my good fortune to be spread, I'd tell my family what I'd found. If I wanted to keep something important 'secret', I wouldn't then attempt to attract attention by building and renovating on a large scale - let alone put clues in my works.

I still haven't seen a good explanation of PoS - whether it existed in reality or not - and the motive behind Plantard et al. Was it all simply an ego trip for them? And if it was, why latch onto RLC and shine a light there? Just an intriguing aside that they could use to weave a web around?

The Maranatha puzzle (much like PoS) stated that there was a secret that had been perpetuated by members of an organization down through the years. And each generation re-created a key to that secret. Fine. But that to me begged the same question, Why? If I have a secret that gives power, then I use it. What concern about future generations? The implication to me seemed to be that the secret was 'time' sensitive. IE that maybe the secret just wouldn't be understood yet. And how can a secret create wealth anyway?

If BS did stumble on something, why didn't he just retire? Surely he must have realised (he doesn't sound stupid to me) that by spending loads of money it would eventually attract attention from his superiors?

If BS encoded something, who was his target audience - and how do he plan to reach that audience? PoS wasn't BS's brainchild was it?

I can't offer an answer for all your points but I can offer you an explanation how are secret can make a person money, and why they would need to keep that secret.

As mentioned earlier, the Legend of Hiram Abiff in the Masonic Ritual of the Third Degree is NOT original. Originally there was no Hiram Abiff, no murder and no loss of Masonic Secrets. Then, in a very short space of time the character was introduced, no explanation is given. After being included the story was expanded to include the notion of 'Secrets' being lost, and the ending of the ritual being changed. The change included the instruction that the newly raised Master Mason is now charged to go out and 'Seek what was lost'. Indeed, the opening of each third degree lodge, every Master Mason is reminded of that charge.

Indeed, the Royal Arch Degree is meant to convey the rediscovery of those secrets. The Royal and Select Degrees, state how and why they were hidden. Although, the ritual of the Royal Arch has failings, as a mason you sit and just accept the ceremony, but if you listen there are claims in the ritual that contradict those of the Third Degree. A piece is missing.

If someone found either why Hiram was added, why the secrets were described as being lost, or the missing explanation between the Third and Fourth Degree, or what the Hiram legend actually was referring to. Then that person would have something quite valuable. Possibly not valuable to everyone, but it would be an immense value to a Freemason who took his masonry and oaths seriously. If someone had connects to wealthy and dedicated Freemasons, he could for a fee offer them the ultimate prize, the lost secrets of freemasonry. Because of it being Masonic information, and being sold to Freemasons, and was convincing enough, he would be selling to an ideal market, as they would pay and keep the secret quiet. The seller would have to keep the secret quiet as well, for if he released the secret, he has lost his product (if every knows the secret, you have nothing to sell).

Another way to successfully sell the secret, and which may explain why Sauniere experienced times when funds were not so forthcoming, is with Sauniere passing on the secret to a group of influential masons who then created an exclusive side Order to the Craft. The Order clearly offered the ‘missing information’, and only offered this to dedicated Brethren, and by that I mean those who could afford the ‘exclusive’ fees to joining the Order. This system would almost create an ethical method of selling information, whilst also ensuring an increasing target market, as existing members would encourage their friends to join. If someone did spill the beans, then I could really imagine them found under Blackfriars Bridge.

Baffled Mate if I go to Oxford can I buy you a drink

In reading the Freemason Bible/Book
I picked up there was a secret or secrets also
my dear friend who allowed me to look at it
was oblivious to it and frankly could have cared less
He was just there because his friends were there

After studying it there does seem to be a reason why history may have been suppressed
In other words a certain history promoted for the masses
meanwhile the higher level masons may have had privy knowledge or acted like they did
I don't think many would pick it up but since I have been studying the whole mystery
I saw signs of it in the book. It was pretty fascinating got to admit

and one must understand masons are in some of the highest offices and agencies in America from military to Congress
so they do wield immense power

It is surprising that a Catholic would achieve a position of President of US of which Kennedy was assassinated and Johnson
a Texas Freemason became President

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 6:15 pm

fmh999 wrote:

The church is not as innocent as it may look like. True that the decoration is mainly one thing: decoration. But tell me the number of churches in France where you can find the (custome made/amend) phrase VENEZ A MOI VOUS TOUS QUI SOUFFREZ ET QUI ETES ACCABLES ET.....etc. or PAR CE SIGNE TU LE VAINCRAS..

And no, this is not that the priests "just" changed these phrases out of "nothing".

It is also no coincidence which statues they have chosen to be present in the church.

From the Ostervald translation (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et chargés, et je vous soulagerai.

From the Segond translation (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et chargés, et je vous donnerai du repos.

La Sainte Bible Catholique (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et ployez sous le fardeau, et je vous soulagerai.

Bible de la Liturgie Catholique (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui peinez sous le poids du fardeau, et moi, je vous procurerai le repos.

LE NOUVEAU TESTAMENT TRADUIT SUR LA VULGATE PAR LE MAISTRE DE SACI (1759)

Mathieu 11:29 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et qui êtes chargés, et je vous soulagerai.

La Bible de Jerusalém (French)

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui peinez et ployez sous la fardeau, et moi je vous soulagerai.

As you can see there is no "hard and fast" form...

Also, as concerns par ce signe tu le vaincras the phrase isn't scriptual, and placed on a font used for exorcism of demons, which is held up by the image of a demon, the message is quite clearly directed at the beast himself.

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 6:43 pm

Not look quite so enigmatic any more, is is?

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 7:11 pm

Diocèse de Quimper et Leon

SAINT ANTOINE L'ERMITE
Fété le : 17 janvier

par Yves-Pascal Castel, photos Joël Lubin
Dans la cohorte des cinquante bienheureux qui portent le nom d’Antoine, au calendrier de l’Eglise universelle, la présente étude se limitera à saint Antoine l’ermite qu’il faut bien distinguer de saint Antoine de Padoue, disciple de saint François d’Assise (1195-1251), car l’un et l’autre ont fait l’objet d’un culte très couru. Il s’agira ici d’Antoine l’ermite, Antoine abbé, Antoine le Grand, qui est fêté le 17 janvier [1].

Brève vie de saint Antoine l’ermite

Saint Antoine est né vers 251, au village de Come, en Haute Egypte. Prenant au sérieux à l’âge de vingt ans le conseil de l’évangile : « Va, vends tous tes biens et suis-moi », il quitte le monde séculier. Ses biens distribués aux pauvres il va vivre en solitude dans une cellule établie non loin de son lieu de naissance. Vers l’an 305, il fonde une communauté près de Fayum, puis une autre à Pispir. Ainsi, Antoine est le premier à organiser dans l’église chrétienne la vie religieuse telle que nous la connaissons aujourd’hui, rassemblant d’importants groupes d’ermites dans des communautés libres. Sa renommée très vite répandue de son vivant en Egypte et à l’étranger.

http://www.papeterieramber.info/historique/saintantoine.htm

Saint Antoine est le patron des Papetiers Vosgiens. Il s’agit de St Antoine le Grand, l’ermite , plus ancien de près de mille ans que Saint Antoine de Padoue. Il était né en Egypte vers l’an 350, dans une famille chrétienne très riche. Tout jeune, il distribua ses biens aux pauvres et se retira dans le désert de Thébaïde pour y mener une vie de prières et de privations. Il eut bientôt des milliers de disciples et fonda de nombreux monastères qu’il dirigeait depuis son ermitage isolé.

17 janvier
St Antoine le Grand, Ermite en Egypte

Antoine d'Égypte, Antoine l'Ermite ou saint Antoine est considéré comme le fondateur de l'érémitisme chrétien. Sa vie nous est connue par le récit qu'en a fait Athanase d'Alexandrie vers 360.
Il serait né vers 251 en Égypte à Qeman dans une famille assez riche d'agriculteurs fervents chrétiens. Orphelin à dix-huit ans il a une sœur cadette à élever.
Ayant entendu le passage d'Evangile "Vends tout ce que tu as, et suis moi", il l'a pris au sérieux. Il distribua tous ces biens.
En 285, ayant installé sa sœur selon son désir dans une communauté religieuse, il part vivre en plein désert, dans un fortin romain abandonné sur la route de la mer Rouge. Là, à la manière du Christ, il subit les tentations du Diable, pendant plus de vingt ans.

http://www.tourrettessurloup.com/index.php?article=662

La vie de Saint Antoine le Grand.
Saint Antoine est encore appelé l’Ermite, ou le saint au cochon, « lou porquier ». Il est le père du monachisme, car il a cherché et trouvé Dieu dans la solitude absolue et dans l’ascèse la plus totale : l’homme se dépouille de tout pour rencontrer au désert son Créateur.

http://consciencesansobjet.blogspot.com/2012/01/antoine-le-grand-ou-antoine-degypte-ou.html

Antoine le Grand ou Antoine d'Egypte ou Antoine l'Ermite

Antoine le Grand, Antoine d'Égypte, Antoine l'Ermite ou saint Antoine est considéré comme le fondateur de l'érémitisme chrétien. Sa vie nous est connue par le récit qu'en a fait Athanase d'Alexandrie vers 360. Il serait né vers 251 et mort vers 356 à l'âge de 105 ans, entre les bras de ses deux disciples bien-aimés, Macaire l'Ancien ou Macaire d'Égypte et Amathas.

Lunch time, be back later...

TCP

Spartacus Paraclete · **Joined:** 30 Dec 2009 12:04 pm **Posts:** 1906

I reckon that is as clear and emphatic a response as one could ask for...

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 7:24 pm

Spartacus Paraclete wrote:

I reckon that is as clear and emphatic a response as one could ask for...

Sometimes it has to be.

TCP

fmh999 · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 7:29 pm

TCP wrote:

fmh999 wrote:

The church is not as innocent as it may look like. True that the decoration is mainly one thing: decoration. But tell me the number of churches in France where you can find the (custome made/amend) phrase VENEZ A MOI VOUS TOUS QUI SOUFFREZ ET QUI ETES ACCABLES ET.....etc. or PAR CE SIGNE TU LE VAINCRAS..

And no, this is not that the priests "just" changed these phrases out of "nothing".

It is also no coincidence which statues they have chosen to be present in the church.

From the Ostervald translation (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et chargés, et je vous soulagerai.

From the Segond translation (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et chargés, et je vous donnerai du repos.

La Sainte Bible Catholique (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et ployez sous le fardeau, et je vous soulagerai.

Bible de la Liturgie Catholique (French):

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui peinez sous le poids du fardeau, et moi, je vous procurerai le repos.

LE NOUVEAU TESTAMENT TRADUIT SUR LA VULGATE PAR LE MAISTRE DE SACI (1759)

Mathieu 11:29 Venez à moi, vous tous qui êtes fatigués et qui êtes chargés, et je vous soulagerai.

La Bible de Jerusalém (French)

Mathieu 11:28 Venez à moi, vous tous qui peinez et ployez sous la fardeau, et moi je vous soulagerai.

As you can see there is no "hard and fast" form...

Also, as concerns par ce signe tu le vaincras the phrase isn't scriptual, and placed on a font used for exorcism of demons, which is held up by the image of a demon, the message is quite clearly directed at the beast himself.

TCP

As I said: VENEZ A MOI in the RLC church is a custom made phrase put by the priests. They could have chosen one of the ones you put. But no. They made "another" one. Would you like to show me another church in France or any bible showing the creation of the priest?

PAR CE SIGNE...also here you should think on the latin phrase they should have translated. But they put in the LE....

Spartacus Paraclete · **Joined:** 30 Dec 2009 12:04 pm **Posts:** 1906

TCP wrote:

Spartacus Paraclete wrote:

I reckon that is as clear and emphatic a response as one could ask for...

Sometimes it has to be.

TCP

I hear you... excellent work.

Regards,

Spartacus

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 7:51 pm

fmh999 wrote:

As I said: VENEZ A MOI in the RLC church is a custom made phrase put by the priests. They could have chosen one of the ones you put. But no. They made "another" one. Would you like to show me another church in France or any bible showing the creation of the priest?

I don't need to. I've demonstrated to you that there was no singular, hard-and-fast, by-the-way method in which to phrase the statement and so there isn't necessarily anything sinister to the inscription in Saunière's church. I guess the ball is in your court now to prove that there was something sinister or untoward going on, and to explain what it was.

fmh999 wrote:

PAR CE SIGNE...also here you should think on the latin phrase they should have translated. But they put in the LE....

Well, again, those are assumptions YOU are making in an attempt to preserve an hypothesis. So let's hear the rest of it - what was the nefarious purpose at work here to add "him" to the sentence?

TCP

fmh999 · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 7:58 pm

TCP wrote:

fmh999 wrote:

As I said: VENEZ A MOI in the RLC church is a custom made phrase put by the priests. They could have chosen one of the ones you put. But no. They made "another" one. Would you like to show me another church in France or any bible showing the creation of the priest?

I don't need to. I've demonstrated to you that there was no singular, hard-and-fast, by-the-way method in which to phrase the statement and so there isn't necessarily anything sinister to the inscription in Saunière's church. I guess the ball is in your court now to prove that there was something sinister or untoward going on, and to explain what it was.

fmh999 wrote:

PAR CE SIGNE...also here you should think on the latin phrase they should have translated. But they put in the LE....

Well, again, those are assumptions YOU are making in an attempt to preserve an hypothesis. So let's hear the rest of it - what was the nefarious purpose at work here to add "him" to the sentence?

TCP

True that these are assumptions as long as there is no final proof. Or at least as long as the final step will be ready to be communicated. So fair enough, take it as assumptions, I am OK with that.

Best

Chris Foster · **Joined:** 06 Jun 2010 7:25 pm **Posts:** 76

I certainly feel that Sauniere and Co. made their money from selling or at least bribing those interested parties, and I don't believe it was anymore complicated than that.

There was much interest in the area as there is today. Some of the artefacts which were found he fronted as being of special importance, and from a special tomb. A scenario which we have recently seen played out.

Although, I do believe he was a Mason.

TCP · **Posted:** 26 Mar 2012 9:09 pm

fmh999 wrote:

True that these are assumptions as long as there is no final proof. Or at least as long as the final step will be ready to be communicated. So fair enough, take it as assumptions, I am OK with that.

But surely you have some idea as to what you think it means?

TCP

Baffled-mate · **Joined:** 21 Mar 2012 1:36 am **Posts:** 31

I would have to concur. Looks amazing, fantastic finds, thank you so much. I stand corrected on the rarity.All from the late 1800's early 20th century?

And for the pictures of the St. Anthony's

As I said, I am not a fan of the internet as s form of authorised research.

But, I stand completely corrected. I used the old fashioned method of checking the Latin, French and English lists and records of the names and depictions of saints. Also contacted the Vatican on the use and protocol of the use of phrases and scripture, to gain an understanding of its use, just to confirm my opinion. I should have stuck with the internet.

I would still, respectfully suggest contacting the Vatican, on which saint is called what, no matter what an internet page may say. But I cant dispute the images, even though you cant see the tops of most of the staffs or the side of the shoulders. And when you do actually Google your St Anthony the Great he doesnt appear as you have suggested.

As for the engravings, again which churches, if churches, when built etc.

I cannot recall if I stated, that a priest had altered scripture, as suggested, or just asked if it is common for them to amend core religious phrases? Again, not being sarcastic, I am just doing this via my phone, and have limited scope to see, and all my posts were from scattered memories anyway.

Well, I am worried that this will sound terribly sarcastic, but I really dont mean it to be. I have not talked about this subject for over a year, and I joined here just to banter and it has been fabulous. You all are fantastic,
Sincerely, thank you everyone

BULLDOGNIC · **Joined:** 24 Apr 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1873

Nice pictures Tim :wink:

. I also believe you are quite correct regarding St Anthony / Antoine d'Égypte / Antoine l'Ermite. The statue in RLC is portraying St Antoine l'Ermite as you describe, and I can verify that he is a popular Saint in the region, represented in many churches across the Languedoc.
Regards
Nic

rs2008 · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2012 12:59 am

jlockest wrote:

BM,
I can buy the Grail from a literary device aspect - as that was the point of the Maranatha puzzle - they posited that maybe the academics were wrong and that an actual artefact(s) may have existed.
But going back to gaining wealth from a secret, didn't BS gain the wealth over a number of years? So are you saying that an idea could be that he was paid in instalments or that he got the money from various competing Masonic bodies? And how would anyone KNOW what BS offered were the lost secrets? What is the 'effect' of the lost secrets by which they can be proven? And, why would anyone pay to know those secrets, unless those secrets had some intrinsic value?
Apart from the Lodge registers showing a Sauniere (http://www.perillos.com/bs_fm.html), what ties are there that show BS linked to high ranking Masons?

Can I also ask if you were involved with or were aware of the Maranatha/Timemonk project(s)?

So the Perillos site is still showing "that collar"?
It's not a Scottish Rite collar at all, it's a Martinist collar.
There's no proof it belonged to BS in any event.
We went through this a year or two ago.

TCP · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2012 3:07 am

jlockest wrote:

BM,
I can buy the Grail from a literary device aspect - as that was the point of the Maranatha puzzle - they posited that maybe the academics were wrong and that an actual artefact(s) may have existed.
But going back to gaining wealth from a secret, didn't BS gain the wealth over a number of years? So are you saying that an idea could be that he was paid in instalments or that he got the money from various competing Masonic bodies? And how would anyone KNOW what BS offered were the lost secrets? What is the 'effect' of the lost secrets by which they can be proven? And, why would anyone pay to know those secrets, unless those secrets had some intrinsic value?
Apart from the Lodge registers showing a Sauniere (http://www.perillos.com/bs_fm.html), what ties are there that show BS linked to high ranking Masons?

Can I also ask if you were involved with or were aware of the Maranatha/Timemonk project(s)?

Duncan - is that you?

TCP

jlockest · **Joined:** 13 Aug 2010 5:37 pm **Posts:** 990

rs2008 wrote:

jlockest wrote:

BM,
I can buy the Grail from a literary device aspect - as that was the point of the Maranatha puzzle - they posited that maybe the academics were wrong and that an actual artefact(s) may have existed.
But going back to gaining wealth from a secret, didn't BS gain the wealth over a number of years? So are you saying that an idea could be that he was paid in instalments or that he got the money from various competing Masonic bodies? And how would anyone KNOW what BS offered were the lost secrets? What is the 'effect' of the lost secrets by which they can be proven? And, why would anyone pay to know those secrets, unless those secrets had some intrinsic value?
Apart from the Lodge registers showing a Sauniere (http://www.perillos.com/bs_fm.html), what ties are there that show BS linked to high ranking Masons?

Can I also ask if you were involved with or were aware of the Maranatha/Timemonk project(s)?

So the Perillos site is still showing "that collar"?
It's not a Scottish Rite collar at all, it's a Martinist collar.
There's no proof it belonged to BS in any event.
We went through this a year or two ago.

RS,
I wasn't aware of that about the collar - was the signature in the Lodge guest book also disputed? I saw the recent discussion here that mentioned the signature, and a few sites repeat basically the same - ie that the Sauniere in question may be BS or could be his brother. Is the signature document disputed in its own right?

rs2008 · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2012 7:37 am

jlockest wrote:

rs2008 wrote:

jlockest wrote:

BM,
I can buy the Grail from a literary device aspect - as that was the point of the Maranatha puzzle - they posited that maybe the academics were wrong and that an actual artefact(s) may have existed.
But going back to gaining wealth from a secret, didn't BS gain the wealth over a number of years? So are you saying that an idea could be that he was paid in instalments or that he got the money from various competing Masonic bodies? And how would anyone KNOW what BS offered were the lost secrets? What is the 'effect' of the lost secrets by which they can be proven? And, why would anyone pay to know those secrets, unless those secrets had some intrinsic value?
Apart from the Lodge registers showing a Sauniere (http://www.perillos.com/bs_fm.html), what ties are there that show BS linked to high ranking Masons?

Can I also ask if you were involved with or were aware of the Maranatha/Timemonk project(s)?

So the Perillos site is still showing "that collar"?
It's not a Scottish Rite collar at all, it's a Martinist collar.
There's no proof it belonged to BS in any event.
We went through this a year or two ago.

RS,
I wasn't aware of that about the collar - was the signature in the Lodge guest book also disputed? I saw the recent discussion here that mentioned the signature, and a few sites repeat basically the same - ie that the Sauniere in question may be BS or could be his brother. Is the signature document disputed in its own right?

I have no idea about the signature. Douzie seems pretty sure, but that definitely wouldn't make it a cert from my point of view. For his theory to fit, he needs to "prove" BS was a Freemason, hence the collar, whose provenance is essentially unknown. The lack of a jewel on a collar really doesn't carry the weight the article suggests, the jewel for instance in Craft Freemasonry merely identifies the Office within the Lodge the wearer occupies, not the name of the Lodge. In any event, the collar jewel of the 18th Degree (of which the collar is purported to be) in the AAR is a double headed eagle, with no identifying features, and has always been that, so the whole collar bit in this article is most contrived in my opinion. I can't comment on the rest, but I can't help doubt the veracity of the whole of that article and a site which continues to display such inaccuracies. Maybe AD doesn't read Arcadia, but I am sure the French sites would have the odd Freemason among them, who would mount a similar argument. It wouldn't be the first time he was found wanting.

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2012 8:16 am

jlockest wrote:

rs2008 wrote:

jlockest wrote:

BM,
I can buy the Grail from a literary device aspect - as that was the point of the Maranatha puzzle - they posited that maybe the academics were wrong and that an actual artefact(s) may have existed.
But going back to gaining wealth from a secret, didn't BS gain the wealth over a number of years? So are you saying that an idea could be that he was paid in instalments or that he got the money from various competing Masonic bodies? And how would anyone KNOW what BS offered were the lost secrets? What is the 'effect' of the lost secrets by which they can be proven? And, why would anyone pay to know those secrets, unless those secrets had some intrinsic value?
Apart from the Lodge registers showing a Sauniere (http://www.perillos.com/bs_fm.html), what ties are there that show BS linked to high ranking Masons?

Can I also ask if you were involved with or were aware of the Maranatha/Timemonk project(s)?

So the Perillos site is still showing "that collar"?
It's not a Scottish Rite collar at all, it's a Martinist collar.
There's no proof it belonged to BS in any event.
We went through this a year or two ago.

RS,
I wasn't aware of that about the collar - was the signature in the Lodge guest book also disputed? I saw the recent discussion here that mentioned the signature, and a few sites repeat basically the same - ie that the Sauniere in question may be BS or could be his brother. Is the signature document disputed in its own right?

This signature proporting to be our own Curé's often gets trotted out as proof of some masonic leanings.
However a number of issues remain.
1. Can we be sure it was the Curé of RLC who signed the book?
2. It was a GUEST book, that doesn't make him a member, was it just a social evening to which he was invited?
3. Membership would imply regular attendance so there would be many signatures over a period not one.
4. 19thc French Martinism is not the same as 21stc Craft Freemasonry
5. 2nd hand collars without jewels are two a penny, probably from the same junk shop as Ben's box.
6. Was there a signature at the next meeting or had he decided it definitely was not for him and didn't go back.

Just thinking out loud...........

TD

jlockest · **Joined:** 13 Aug 2010 5:37 pm **Posts:** 990

Thomas D. wrote:

jlockest wrote:

......
RS,
I wasn't aware of that about the collar - was the signature in the Lodge guest book also disputed? I saw the recent discussion here that mentioned the signature, and a few sites repeat basically the same - ie that the Sauniere in question may be BS or could be his brother. Is the signature document disputed in its own right?

This signature proporting to be our own Curé's often gets trotted out as proof of some masonic leanings.
However a number of issues remain.
1. Can we be sure it was the Curé of RLC who signed the book?
2. It was a GUEST book, that doesn't make him a member, was it just a social evening to which he was invited?
3. Membership would imply regular attendance so there would be many signatures over a period not one.
4. 19thc French Martinism is not the same as 21stc Craft Freemasonry
5. 2nd hand collars without jewels are two a penny, probably from the same junk shop as Ben's box.
6. Was there a signature at the next meeting or had he decided it definitely was not for him and didn't go back.

Just thinking out loud...........

TD

I thought:
2) That to sign a guest book in a lodge to attend a 'ritual' you had to be a Mason. So, I'm not sure here what this 'guest' book then is. Is it a ritual attendance guest book, or simply a general guest book?
3) Not quite sure about that. A Mason would attend their own lodge - and no attendance book is then kept AFAIK. If a mason attends a lodge (for ritual purposes) other than their mother lodge, then AFAIK they have to be invited to prove that they are masons - or else anyone could just turn up. If the book is a record of ritual attendance, then I would assume that if the signature is BS's, then it would show he was a Mason.

I don't know how Martinism works, but AFAIK, you can't attend any Masonic ritual without being a Mason. Part of the ceremony is to ensure that only Mason of the required degree are within the Lodge. You can't turn up to see if you like it per se.

Again maybe a Mason can clarify.

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