Arcadia Discussion Zone

I'm not being disparaging, it's good advice as far as I'm concerned.

TCP

The evidence is in their name, period.

They could have been a lot more accurate and no less safe had they chosen to call themselves "Crusaders" rather than "Freemasons" if their motive was to mimic chivalry. They didn't. Their motive was to mimic a professional trade guild that practiced ritual secrecy and created elaborate myths as a means of keeping their trade from becoming diluted by unskilled workers who would work for less money. One guild member could identify any other by means of passwords, handshakes, and familiarity with guild lore and ritual that someone who had never been properly apprenticed and trained would not be in a position to know. Guilds were all about trade protection and wage security, and the masons' guilds were historically among the most famous and successful (and secretive). The primary difference between the old guilds and the Freemasons was that the latter wasn't comprised of members who all professed the same trade. These were middle-class merchants and skilled professionals of different backgrounds who came together socially to benefit their individual and mutual economic interests. The world was changing, feudal class distinctions were falling by the wayside and the emerging middle class was looking to establish its own social institutions. That was the purpose of Freemasonry, and the reason for its popularity.

TCP

It's not me that wants to use the term "crusaders". Ramsay used this term himself.




The question is, when did those names come into usage and how?

One thing that shouldn't be over looked is the impact that time had on the Templars whilst they were in the Holy Land - specifically religious beliefs and how that is represented in symbolism, and feeds through into our Masonic Lodges. I agree that much of the original rituals has been lost and isn;t practiced today.

As a Mason myself, I see things in the Church at Rennes that are relevant to a Lodge Temple.

Regards.

Correct.
St. Roch is all over France and christianity. Just watch that huge church in Paris f.i. that is dedicated to him!

Then don't miss the church of Brenac near Quillan.

Lov,
I'm no expert, but from what I've read, I thought Freemasons used the VSL (Volume of the Sacred Law) - the whole point being that Masonry isn't tied to one religion and is open to anyone who believes in a 'single' G_d. Each candidate would then take their obligations on whatever book expressed their religious laws.
Maybe the active Masons here can confirm that or dispel my misconception.

This is what Baffle-Mate is saying also and why I suggested Tim give him a chance to explain.

Tim is seeing it from a Catholic perspective.

You and BM are saying there is a masonic perspective.

Can you explain more.

Good Morning,

I think you are correct, but I suppose it depends on how you view this information about Ramsay. Although Ramsay is the first known person to claim that Freemasonry derived from the Crusades, it has to be decided on whether he was right or not. If he was right, then Freemasonry always was linked to the Crusades and possibly the Templars.

Personally I find his story fascinating but holds little evidence. One of the things I would love to be true, but can't accept on face value due.

But in context of the previous conversation quoted, I was assuming that we were discussing how Freemasonry stands today, and in that context, the only link that can be seen in modern Freemasonry and in its Order of the Knights Templar, which I believe only started in the 1800’s, it only draws on the Myths or 'Ideals' of what people want to think about the Knights Templar, and not any historic link.

You are right with regard to the Volume of Sacred Law in terms of no specific religion.

It is nice to see a subject progressing without a bun-fight half way through !

Thanks for the heads up regarding the Church at Brenac. There are so many I have visited over the years which have been locked. It took four years for me to get into the Church at Rennes le Bains.

Baffled which Craft Lodge do you attend ?

Regards.

Dear TCP,

If I have caused offence I am so sorry, and you are quiet right I was not raised a Catholic, and you make excellent points, thank you. I must remember that I am looking at this from my perspective, and I SHOULD keep in mind that I am looking at a Catholic Church in rural France, and not an English Church. As I said, an excellent point thank you.

In addition, my choice of words was not good, using such provocative words as curious. So please let me amend. My argument should be that, individually each item is explainable, but as I collection, they then appear rare. And I should not have begun with listing the statues as curiosities, I was simply quickly trying get to the Masonic links I saw and why I thought them significant. Perhaps I should have started with the other items, such as the ‘TU’ added to the quote added to the font (which I believe is one of a kind), a devil figure holding the font (to my knowledge only one other known to exist), the phrase above the door of ‘This place is terrible’ (not used since the early years of the Christian Church, or used during that period, or since), the reversed setting of the stations of the cross. My argument should have stated that these are the elements that draw attention to the Church, as they do seem both curious and rare. I understand that they may be individually explained, but I was simply pointing out what is the probability of all these aspects being found in one church. If you are correcting me and this is both a common display in the Catholic Churches of the region, I really do offer a sincere thank you, I was not aware of it, that is why I came here to find out such things.

As for the statues, my argument was based on accepting that the spelling of the GRAAL was a decided feature. If that was not, then there would be no grounding to my theory. But if it was a intended as a design feature, then I was raising the question of why those Saints were used and not others. I wrongly described St. Germaine (Trumbone – so sorry for that too), as obscure. That is wrong, she is obscure to me. Although, if looking at the listings of Saints and there popularity, she isn’t that high and other French Saints that begin with a ‘G’ are more popular. But you are right, she may be more popular in that region, hence her being chosen. As for mentioning her role with sheep and aprons with flowers, I was simply pointing out how, besides the other saints you mention, she would rather seem the best candidate it you were trying to spell the word GRAAL, and wanted a Shepherdess, and wanted to have a Masonic reference to Aprons and Flowers. If that was an intent, she is ideal. I suppose you just have to accept that it is a coincidence that all those aspects appear in a church that appears to be linked to a mystery that has been linked to Freemasonry, Shepherdesses, and the GRAAL.

As for St. Roch, indeed, more common than St. Germain, but again my argument rested on the acceptance that the word GRAAL being intentional. If it was, only then was I questioning the use of Roch, as Roseline seemed a better candidate, for the reasons expressed. Indeed, the reference to the leg exposed is quite right, but as I said I didn’t want to go into much detail. I assume you are not a Mason, as in the rituals, you are set in the lodge knee bare and breast exposed. But the breast exposed is due to a dagger being pressed or pointed to your chest. Forgive me if I am incorrect, I am working from memory of images I saw ages ago of St. Roch, that in his legend he had the mark of the Cross on his chest, and that is why when he is depicted his finger is ‘pointing’ to his chest.

I was under the impression that it was common practice, especially in Catholic churches, that the statues of figures were clearly defined, so that the populace could easily define the character. As you say, how was St. Germaine, meant to be portrayed, as she should be as a Shepherdess. If that is true, and Sauniere is meant to be a well versed Catholic Priest and aware of the depictions of Saints. Why is the statue of St. Anthony the hermit all wrong?

The statue name plate describes the figure as St. Anthony the Hermit. The only Saint that this title goes to, is also known St. Anthony of Lerins. Whose feast day is the 28th December, and at first glance the statue appears to depict him, with his special pilgrims staff. Although, when you look again, there is a pig and the bottom of his statue? Just as Sheep appear to assist in identifying St. Germaine, and a Dog is used to assist to identify St. Roch, why has St. Anthony the Hermit been depicted with a pig. The only St. Anthony to be depicted with a pig is St. Anthony the Great, whose feast day is the 17th January. Although he was a hermit, he is not known as St. Anthony the Hermit, that title was St. Anthony of Lerin. But this can’t be St. Anthony the Great, as he hasn’t got his classic ‘Tau’ staff, or his commonly depicted Black Cloak and ‘T’ shoulder symbol. I suppose it is possible that the store were Sauniere ordered his statues from had run out of St. Anthony the Hermit statues, and sent a St. Anthony the Great one instead, just changed the staff and painted him differently. Either way, Sauniere, a Catholic Priest, should be aware that St Anthony the Hermit does not have a pig as a symbol.

Again, I am sincerely asking if this is wrong, that is why I am here? And I am genuinely sorry if I have caused offence to you.

Hello Again,

With the reference to the Volume of the Sacred Law, indeed it is a phrase that is used to describe the scriptures of which the candidate is willing to take their oaths on. So depending on their faith, the actuall 'scriptures' change, in the Craft Lodges / Degrees.

Although this was not always the case, and some higher degrees in England today still require a belief in Christianity or the Trinity.

Hope that helps.

Hello Chris,

Would you mind awfully that I didn't post what Lodge I am a member of on a public forum. Saying that if any brethren would like to be my guest at my lodge, you are most welcome. I am in the Oxfordshire region, if that helps. Just email me, and you are most welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you. I have sent a PM.

Very much correct. I would add that the connection twixt the KT of de Molay's time and modern Freemasonry (as represented by the Grand Lodges of Scotland and England) is largely mythical. I would recommend a read of The Rosslyn Hoax by Robert L.D. Cooper, who is also secretary/librarian for the Grand Lodge of Scotland.

"Almost every time that there's a mystery in the Middle Ages you'll find the Templars galloping on to the scene: Turin Shroud ? Oh, it's the Templars. Rennes-le-Chateau ? Oh, it's the Templars. They're a sort of Jack-in-the-box popping up every time there is a mystery that cannot be solved. The poor old Templars weren't like that at all of course."

- Jonathan Riley-Smith.

I sincerely concur, and I hope my previous posts convey that. If we are discussing supposed links between Freemasonry and original Templar creed.

Although, it is still a tantalizing to see the Sinclair family involved in the early recorded years of Freemasonry. I am seriously NOT offering this as a link between Freemasonry and knights templar. To be honest, with regard to my original offering on this forum, would consider it not really relevant, and just a side conversation. If that is ok, and doesnt offend.

While Ramsay appears to have been the first to formally and publically draw the connection between Freemasonry and the Crusaders, I can't imagine he was speaking into a vacuum. There must have been others in the craft that shared his view although it doesn't seem to come thru in the more mundane histories - all very strange.

Some historians think it is purely his invention and was designed to appeal to the high minded upper echelons of French society. It appears he believed the French were more likely to develop Freemasonry beyond what he believed British society would be inclined to do.

Important to the theorys of the origin of Freemasonry is that it "evolved" from operative masonry guilds, and one of the largest employers of operative masons was the Knights Templar. There is a certain masonic style document dated by some to as early as 1390 called the "Regius". This would seem to indicate an early beginning for the craft. The question would seem to be, when did the first lodges allow non-operative masons to become members?

Hi Baffled-Mate,

Seriously mate, you don't have to keep apologizing in case you have offended anyone IMHO. Almost everyone around here has a very thick skin. The hardcore crew try to offend each other all the time. It usually doesn't work anyway

As to your observations, I can't make much of an opinion as I'm not so well versed in the topic under discussion.

However, I'll say this...both the flowery apron and the rolled up trouser-leg are images that could be construed as 'Masonic' symbols (for those with eyes to see blah, blah, blah). Tim's (TCP) issue that neither is out of place in a rural French church is, of course, also correct. You made the point that it is I think, your opinion, that the confluence of possible masonic imagery that has piqued your interest. Can you, or perhaps are you willing to further elaborate on this, because IMHO this would be key to your observations (as I'm sure you know, and have already articulated).

That these images are not out of place in a Catholic Church in southern France is an accurate observation. However IMHO this doesn't immediately mean the images cannot be examined to see if they portray a greater picture.

For a long time in Ireland some people would use a subtle form of 'portrait symbolism' to announce, to those with eyes to see, their 'political colours'. For example, various portraits of Gaelic Games players and perhaps regional politicians and even religious persons might adorn the walls of a person home, office or club. Not a single one of these pictures would be out of place in the setting. However, they could speak volumes to those aware of the individual's backgrounds. For example, a certain picture might be that of a Gaelic Games player. That player might not have been the best player a county had produced nor even close to being the most high profile, and might not be related by blood in anyway to the owner. However, the player might be well known in the county or local area for his militant adherence to Irish republicanism. An outsider would need to be versed in Gaelic Games history and lore, and also have knowledge of the behind-the-scenes militancy of the local area to understand what was really being 'said'. Another picture might then portray a particular regional or local politican or clergy-man. The picture itself would in no way be out of place, but for those with eyes to see, the picture might also tell you what particular strain of militant (illegal) republicanism was being represented.
While the casual observer might see absolutely nothing at all of significance (merely portraits of politicans and sports players that one might well expect to see), the more knowledgable would know exactly what they were seeing, and what it meant. And there might be no other reason for such a display than a desire to 'wear' their 'colours' proudly, yet subtly, although could, obviously be other reasons.

I, at least, would be interested in your observations regarding any possible or hypothetical masonic associations within the rest of the RlC Church decor.

Regards,

Spartacus

I had the privilege of looking at a Freemasons Bible and it was KJV ...which I believe is connected to the York Rite
so what I'm saying you maybe right Jlockest...it depends on which Freemason group you are talking about



Agreed Hotspur
Tim Wallace Murphy a Freemason agrees with the others and he sees Freemason symbolism in the church
It is whenever one talks about it
others can't see it
perhaps they are not looking at the ART in the perspective as a Freemason who is taught differently

The VIEWER chooses to participate ...the VIEWER of art brings his own interpretation

http://youtu.be/dJ8AIIAgYpg
Schama on the Power of Art
Rothko painted to stir people's emotions
How powerful is Art?
Can art change the world?

Thank you Spartacus, (now there is a phrase I would never have imagined writing!)

You are right, hearing someone constantly apologising can be almost as annoying as someone being rude. Please put it down to a Gentlemanly English habit, and a concern of being new here. If all can accept from this moment on that I will never mean offense, and if any is caused please take this my forever existing apology.

As for any opinions that I am mad and foolish, and wish to beat me with a stick, feel free to do so, although I may duck once in a while.

I enjoyed reading your metaphor of the Irish example. Reminds me of the poem Arthur Connor wrote when he was arrested during the Irish Rebellion of 1798. At first it appears like he had repented, and became a Royalist, so the poem was released. He later escaped and became a General in the French army. If you get a chance look up his poem, its a clever trick of how to say something hidden in plain sight.

Thanks again.

'The Pomp of Courts and Pride of Kings'
...
'I fain would banish far from hence'

I'm beginning to believe that Saint Louis and the family of Eleanor of Acquitaine were given the Sacred Knowledge


There had to be a source and the Crusaders had gone into Egypt and Jerusalem
The Celtic Monks were a major source
Thomas Cahill tells the story of how Europe evolved from the classical age of Rome to the medieval era. Without Ireland, the transition could not have taken place. Not only did Irish monks and scribes maintain the very record of Western civilization -- copying manuscripts of Greek and Latin writers, both pagan and Christian, while libraries and learning on the continent were forever lost -- they brought their uniquely Irish world-view to the task.

it was also Blanche Castile father who started the University in Toledo bringing the great Jewish scholars together
He was tolerant and held education in high esteem

St Louis Bible which we have preserved to this day has some of this imagery
The Kings commissioned their Bibles made by the Monks
it is a time where the Bible starts falling away from the grasp of the church...into the Royals hands
I think the King James version hints to that development

The Zohar first appeared in Spain in the 13th century, and was published by a Jewish writer named Moses de Leon.

Lov,
Again, maybe I'm wrong but I wasn't aware of any such thing as a 'Freemason's Bible' other than a Bible owned by a Freemason - I would not dispute that many Freemasons have Bibles although I would doubt that a Muslim Freemason wouldn't own a Bible, nor any other Mason who is a member of non Christian monotheistic religion. That is why Masonry was seen as Universal - it spans the monotheistic beliefs.

AFAIK the concept of the VSL spans all groups, although I see that Baffled-Mate says that some degrees require a belief in the Trinity.

BUT as a degree is a level within Masonry - and the basis of all the other degrees are the common Craft (base 3 degrees AFAIK) degrees, then to me the 'Christian' degrees that Baffled-Mate spoke of, are presumably adjuncts to the core.

Baffled,

Can I ask what part of Masonry is specifically Christian and requires a belief in Christ?

If that part of Masonry is high up the levels (ie forms part of a hierarchy) then does that imply that all the top level Masons must be Christian and can never be anything else but? As that would seem to make the global nature of the Fraternity slightly imperfect!

PS welcome to the forum.

PPS If you had no prior (!) knowledge of RLC or the potential PoS link to the 'mystery' would you still see the church at RLC as being anything odd - given some of the weird carvings you can see in any mediaeval churches?