Arcadia Discussion Zone

If I may, I would like to introduce myself simply by offering a theory. Like anyone starting a conversation amongst strangers, I will begin by offering an idea. I am nervous in expressing it, as I am cautious about how it maybe received, as I am not sure of its worth. I am worried that it may just sound like I am saying in a crowded room of respected geologists that I have noticed that ‘the sky is blue’! Which although may be true, it would hardly be news to the geologists I would be trying to make a good impression to.

To begin, I do not believe that the Priory of Sion exists in the manner we were/are led to believe, with regard to it being a secret organisation that stretches back to antiquity. For myself I do not see any real documentary proof of these claims. Although, I do believe that those who started those stories, and claimed to be members of the society back in the 1960’s and 70’s were in possession of information that they felt was of great worth.

The unfortunate aspect for them is that they felt they could not simply express that they were in possession of the information, because awkward questions would instantly arise about how they became in possession of it. So, to deflect those questions they created the ruse that they were members of a quasi-masonic/templar like organization. Their reasoning being that it would possibly legitimise their possession in the public eyes, or at least deflect more probing questions of how they obtained the information.

As we know, several of the original protagonists of setting the story of the Priory of Sion had minor criminal records and behaved with what we would consider 'questionable' moral intent during the Nazi Occupation of France.

My introductional 'theory' rests on the belief that it is during the occupation of France, these people, and/or members of their families, obtained the valuable information, in a 'dishonourable' fashion. During the 1960’s the French populace were still angry towards their country men and woman, who collaborated during the occupation and the Vichy Government of that period. If they had simply announced that they were in possession of this knowledge, it is probable that many fingers would have pointed claiming that they seeking to be trying to profit from material gain corruptly during those war years.


The 'dishonourable' method of obtaining the information rests on a quiet but important concept of Nazi policy, which began in Germany but was also enforced in all their occupied countries. The Nazi party depended on absolute control and systematically dissolved any organisation that could possibly take public obedience from them. One such organisation was Freemasonary. Indeed, when the Nazi's came to power they forced the Masonic Lodges to close, and seized their libraries and records. They used the records to seek out the members, and any government official or member of the military that was noted as being a Freemason was immediately removed from office. Such was their distain for the organisation.

The Nazi party eventually had to reduce this persecution simply due to the losses of senior staff in both the military and government posts, but their distain continued. So much so that during their occupations they continued to seize the Masonic Libraries of every country they invaded. Reference books were not destroyed, they were stored, many were found after the war, but so many valuable works simply disappeared.

Also, the membership records were continued to be used to round up the Masonic brethren of all occupied countries, and these members were either shot in the streets or sent to the concentration camps. Here, instead of wearing a Yellow Star, and captive brother was forced to wear a purple triangle, as a sign that he was a incarcerated mason.

The world of Freemasonry is worldwide, and was such during the 20th Century, before and after the war. Although different countries practice different rituals and restrictions, some differences that cause divides, it is well known within the fraternity, that Freemasons across the world were well aware of the suffering inflicted to the Order and their brothers under the Nazi regime (excluding the concentration camps, this was not discovered until after the war).

As such, even the before the invasion of France, all French brethren would have been aware of the threat that was coming, as did the Jewish community. So many French Masonic Halls would have taken action to protect their members and their libraries. Indeed, even individual Freemasons would have held extensive and valuable Masonic libraries containing rare manuscripts. All had to be hidden. Not all if could be hidden, and some fell into the wrong hands, and some of those hands were not German. It is not hard to speculate, just as Non-Jewish French families pretended to assist their Jewish friends, but actually betrayed them, so did Non-Masonic individuals, characters claiming to hold similar Esoteric and brethren principles to heart, also exploited the situation and obtained information that was not for them.

Perhaps it was just an accident that they acquired it, or they just made copies of what passed through their care, but it does give an opportunity of explaining how and why characters with dubious pasts have this information and decided to invent a quasi/masonic/templar organisation to legitimise how they came by it. They own publications during the war even expressed anti-masonic material, and yet showed aspects of Esoteric interest. Could they have been interested in the dissolving of the Masonic structure, with an interest in encouraging the chance of seeing something from the hidden collections held by the brethren.

Is that enough for now? I pause, only because I am concerned that I am simply shouting that 'the sky is blue', and that this is not such a compelling thought. For myself, it is the only explanation I can logically see for the creation of the Priory of Sion, which has failed to produce an real evidence for its historic presence, and yet continue to request us to believe them. It seems the only explanation I can think of of how these originators could have any information of worth, that does seem to relate to the Masonic aspects of Rennes Le Chateau, which also appear obvious to a Freemason. I would be happy to express those, to the level I am allowed, if I haven’t offended you all, or embarrassed myself too much already.

Thank you for your time.

Interesting theory.

I fully agree that Plantard et al had certain information about RLC that was and still is not publlic. Nevertheless they kept being "researchers" by themselves till the end of their days.

Interesting is also, that the Nazis do not really destroyed the temples of the freemasons in Germany but removed stone by stone because they thought that the "secret" or a "secret" could be hidden in the walls....

Hello.

I agree with many of the Masonic references, and to my knowledge alot of that is true- and within the public domain.

In relation to the Priory idea, I do not believe this to be more than a family secret passed down through the ages, which has been'dressed up' in modern times.

If you have anything further to add, then we would of course be please to read it.

well even though Freemasons deny being evolved from the Knights Templar it seems pretty clear that they almost certainly are
Baffled-mate (good one ) - I take it you are a Mason? What's you thoughts on the link to the KT?

Obviously the area around RLC has strong links with the KT

I have always found it strange that the United Grand Lodge of England doesn't recognise any Lodges prior to 1717.

That being said I believe there are some ceremonial links within KT, to the Templars of old.

Much has been lost over the years as I believe it is only in modern times that the ritual based side of the ceremonies have been written down. Prior to that the information was only passed on verbally.

Thanks.

Thank you for the kind reception, I wasn't sure if I would be simply laughed at. Also, thank you 'fmh999', for the above information. I was not aware of it, I wonder if they found anything in the South East Corner?

Hello, thank you also.

I concur, this may just be a family secret - dressed up. Although, I suppose it still comes down to how much that 'family secret' is worth and to whom. For example, the secret could just be a rare postage stamp, to most people (including myself), that isn't of much value, but to a stamp collector the secret may be their personal 'Grail'. I guess we can only assess its worth by trying to look through the eyes and interests of those who do give it value, like the other family members. And the value can then only be assessed by seeing how much they would give to acquire it or protect it, which is a pain, as I guess that part we will never know.

Hope I am not speaking out of turn.

Hello, Davinho,

Glad you found the humour in name, thank you. Yes, I am an English Mason, and lucky enough to be a member of several of the side orders, chapters and concaves, including the Masonic Order of the Knights Templar.

I suppose the official stand point of the Freemasonry is to distant itself from a historic connection to the original Knights Templar because it would be impossible to prove. Firstly there is no real record of the original Templar rituals or rites, so there is no direct comparison. Also, if anyone has researched the history of Masonic rituals, they will see that over the past three hundred years they have changed dramatically. Hence, it is equally possible that the original Templar rituals also varied through the hundreds of years of its existence, especially when the order grew in accepting other nationalities.

Saying that, I do believe that it is possible that the Templar rituals existed long after they were disbandment. Just as any military person leaves their regiment, vessel or squadron, they feel a continual bond to that organisation. I would imagine that several groups of Templars would have held the rituals in homage of their past. Perhaps these were the family secrets spoken of earlier?

It is know that as Freemasonry developed, it did collect rituals from other groups and organisations. The most famous one is the Order of the Royal Ark Mariners Degree. It is a special lodge that is attached to the English Mark Masons Degree. The curious history of this Order is that the ritual was ‘purchased’, in fact the receipt for the sale is on display at the Grand Mark Lodge in London. If Freemasonry was clearly willing to buy rituals to save them, I would assume that it is also likely that others would use it to maintain other rituals, if for no other reason to stop the rituals being lost forever.

As Masonic Knight Templar, I would have to admit, that although the ritual was moving and rewarding, and I am honoured to be a member, I cannot say that the ritual was anything more than to inspire the candidate to support his fellow man. This was done on focusing on the Templar symbol of the Two Knights on Horseback.

I hope no fellow mason feels I am breaking any oaths, I feel that I am only generalising about an Order and not speaking out of turn.

Thank you.

Hi Baffled-mate and welcome.
I'm not a fellow mason, but I would doubt that anyone should think you have broken an oath. There is plenty of info about all the orders and their rituals available online.
My main question to you would be from your first post, what information do you believe is so valuable ?
Regards
Nic

Hello Chris,

I assume that the United Grand Lodge doesn't recognise Lodges prior to 1717 because of its agenda. Freemasonry was growing fast, and many variants were emerging. Besides the different variants, there was the distinctive differences between the Ancients and the Moderns. The principle of the Grand Lodge was to unify the fraternity, so that every lodge was the same, and it could be secured with its expansion. So the invitation was given for lodges to join. Most had their Lodge Number changed, so show were they appeared on the new listing. Obviously several didn’t join. For this reason the United Grand Lodge could not recognise them because they could not confirm to their members that it was a Masonic Lodge that practiced the same rituals as they did.

It is not so much that the Grand Lodge degraded them or ignored them by the phrase ‘not recognised’, it is just that if a United Lodge mason went to one of these lodges, they may not recognise the ritual. As such, the masons could not mix, as the whole point of the United Lodge was to uniform the rituals. Boy, I hope that makes sense.

As for the first full written recordings of the ritual date back to the 1730’s, and many of the changes from those dates can be found. Other degrees are a lot easier, for example the Masonic Order of the Knight Templar dates only from its commencement in the 1800’s.

yeah you don't wanna be found hanging under Blackfriars bridge with bricks in your pockets do you

Hello Nic,

Thank you for the supporting phrase. I am sure that there must be several postings about Freemasons and Freemasonry on here, and am aware that virtually everything about Freemasonry is already available on the internet. My concern was simply regarding how people felt about my postings. My Masonic life is important to me, and I would like to feel I am respectful to it, to my fellow brethren and, of course, to yourself. But thank you for the comment, it was appreciated.

What I believe the secret is, is the answer to a mystery with the development of Freemasonry. Freemasonry originally was only two degrees, and not the thirty-three as so commonly quoted. Originally there was only the Apprentice Degree and the Fellowcraft Degree, after those a Mason would stay in the Lodge and work their way up to become the Master of the Lodge. Then a new ritual was added, that of a Master Mason, this became known as the Third Degree, and is now considered possibly the most important and valuable degree in a Freemason’s Masonic Career.

Today’s ritual of the third degree is commonly known, as it introduces the character Hiram Abiff, and, unlike the previous two degrees, this ritual is performed more like a play, in which a murder occurs and the secrets of Freemasonry were lost, (later found in the Royal Arch Degree).

The mystery is the original Third degree ritual didn’t mention Hiram Abiff at all! There was no murder, no loss of secrets. Then all of a sudden, in the early 1700’s he appeared in Masonic ritual. Even when he did appear there was no reference to lost secrets! Hence the mystery, why was he added and why was the ritual changed to describe lost secrets.

I believe that the secrets of Rennes le Chateau show the signs of those changes and possibly the reasons.

By the time the Priests of Rennes-le-Chateau became aware of that information, there was an instant ability to raise funds. In the Royal Arch Degree, the lost secrets of Freemasonry are revealed, but anyone who has gone through that ritual would agree that there are inconsistencies between the two degrees. So, what the Priests claimed to have found were the Real secrets of Freemasonry, or at least, what they felt they could sell as the Real secrets of Freemasonry. I know this isn’t really a new idea of earning money through deeper knowledge of Freemasonry, the Freemason Rudyard Kipling wrote a short story about it, ‘Man Who Would be King’.

"Clear" in what way? Because they call one of their grades "Knights Templar"? They have another grade called "Knights of Malta" but oddly enough no one is claiming Freemasonry somehow sprang from the Hospitallers, very likely because the Order of Malta is still around and can (and would) vociferously refute such a claim. The Templars aren't around anymore to speak up for themselves. It's a lovely idea, and thoroughly unverifiable which I suppose makes it all the more "certain" in the eyes of many.

TCP

Hee Hee! Indeed, to be honest, I was thinking I be subjected to a savage English 'tut', rather than a bankers execution, but either way, would rather not offend anyone.

How so?

TCP

Hello,

I wish I could give you a short sharp answer to that, like that charming quote, 'here is the treasure, spend wisely,' but its a little of a challenge than that. Although, if you dont mind hanging on, I will do my very best to explain what I see and I reached that conclusion.

I suppose I should start with the warning that if American Freemasons are reading this, then I most respectfully remind my fellows that our UK rituals and structure actually differ substantially from yours, so please keep that in mind. Thank you.

For myself the only real evidence that can be found at Rennes le Chateau, that really proves that something of interest happened there are the buildings and structures paid for by Sauniere. Everything else is either a story or papers that can be challenged on their authenticity. As such, the buildings are the only things that are there for all to see, and their factual existence is beyond question.

The most elaborate of them all is his church, with its curious statues and phrases throughout. I know that several websites exist that go into great depths of explaining that although the curiosities are rare, they are not unique. Hence it is concluded that they are not important.

This I do not agree with due to the mathematical balance of reasoning expressed in the quote I use at the bottom of my postings. Indeed one rare feature in a church could be happenstance, two rare features could be coincidence, but to find three or more would make 'enemy action'. Or in this case, more than probable evidence that the designs are there for a reason. A code to be read by a specific person, a Freemason.

Take for example the series of statues of Saints Sauniere chose to recievers his church with? I will admit, I am attracted to the notion that they spell out the word GRASP, but if this was the reason, then I am even more curious about the statues chosen.

If a Saint was required to represent the letter G, why use this obscure St. Trumbone? There are many other French saints that start with a G, why choose her? Also, why Saint Roch? Surely, Saint Roseline would be a far better choice. Besides the play on words of Rose-line, her feast day is the 17th January, a date that is meant to be so important?

Perhaps then the GRAAL spelling is just wishful thinking. Unless the statues actually were meant to represent something as equally important to the right viewer. I believe they do.

Both statues represent there prospective saints by showing the important aspects of their lives. St. Germaine is shown with sheep at her feet, as a Shepherdess (a hint for a later explanation), but her main distinguishing feature is how she holds her apron. This is to represent one of the miracles she is said to have performed - when flowers appeared in her apron. It is how any statue or drawing of her is recognizable. The most recognizable feature of a Freemason is his apron. When he is passed to a Fellowcraft degree, the second degree, two flowers, rosettes appear on his apron. When the mason becomes a Master Mason, a third one appears.

As for St. Roch instead of St. Roseline, I am reluctant to go into detail, but would advise people to research why the figure has his knee and chest exposed, and possibly look up the rituals of how a Masonic candidate appears in the first and second degrees.

Shall I go on? Not sure how this is sounding?

So sorry, writing and posting this on my phone, hence autospell kicked in and changed words. So sorry, the obvious ones are 'GRASP' should be 'GRASP' and 'trumbone' should be 'Germaine'. Although 'St. Trumbone' does make me smile.

Anyway, so for these errors, I wont post again until I am safely at a computer.

Sorry.

I agree with you that the Freemasons connection to the Templars is in their rituals
They use a Templar myth

there is the connection
its in the names


Knights Templar as a part of the York Rite
A Knights Templar commandery is traditionally the final body that a member joins in the York Rite after the chapter of Royal Arch Masons and a council of Royal & Select Masters.
The Degree of Knight of the Temple (Order of the Temple)
The official motto of the Knights Templar is In Hoc Signo Vinces
The ritual draws upon the traditions of medieval Knights Templar, using them to impart moral instruction consistent with the biblical teachings of the Christian tradition.

So as argued here by so many ....no there is no historical connection data that has surfaced yet that connects the real Templars but the Freemasons has incorporated the Templar myth in their rituals

So the Templar myth is part of Freemasonry

Agreed, but as a member its still enjoyable - although I hate the pillars hat we have to wear. But yes, this Order isnt a treasure trove of encrypted secrets, sorry to say.

I thought it was Chevalier Ramsay who claimed (in 1736 or 1737 depending on who you believe) that Freemasonry was derivative from the Crusaders (I don't think he used the term Templars) and had even more ancient antecedents?

Prior to this there was no inherent understanding of or a belief in a connection with the Templars?

I take it you were not raised Catholic, am I right? Because these "curiosities" would hardly evoke the curiosity of a Catholic, nor are they unique or rare.



Saint Germaine "obscure"...? Hardly! She was a French saint, recently canonized (1867) to great fanfare, and was a "local girl", having come originally from Pibrac, just west of Toulouse. Saint Roch was likewise a "local boy", from Montpellier. Not unusual at all that Saunière would have chosen local saints' images for his church, in fact it was quite normal.



Germaine Cousin was a shepherdess. How should she have been portrayed? As concerns the roses in her apron, that is indicative of what Catholics call the Miracle of the Roses and is attributable to several saints - Elisabeth of Hungary, Elisabeth of Portugal, Jadwiga of Poland, Casilda of Toledo, Rita of Cascia, Rose of Viterbo, Didacus (Diego) of Alcala, Roseline de Villeneuve (aka the "far better choice"), etc. Put images of all of the above in a room together and the apron full of roses would be the one feature that wouldn't distinguish one from the other.



According to Roch's hagiography he had been stricken with bubonic plague; the exposed leg shows an enlarged bubo which the dog he's portrayed with licked clean and cured. I have yet to see an image of St. Roch with his chest exposed.



You may as well go on, you've come this far.

TCP

Speaking of a building being torn down, Patrice Chaplin stated in "City of Secrets" that the

secret society used to hide their secret papers within the hollow bricks used to build the house.

For this reason, the house of the Frenchwoman in Girona was torn down to the ground.

No need to be so disparaging Tim - we might all learn something.

If you want to say Crusaders instead of Templars that probably is more accurate and safe
the evidence is in the names in their rituals

The God and the Great Architect so far I have traced it back to St Louis and Blanche Castile in their Bibles
The Freemasons use the COMPASS as their symbol
That imagery was during the Crusades


I wrote an article in which this treasure of geometry, mathematics, and Astronomy was considered Sacred Knowledge attributed to God ...it was during the Crusades

The Bible carried the sacred knowledge...of which many Freemasons use the KJV of the Bible

Toledo saved St Louis Bible and New Orleans has a copy

Freemasons compass and square