Arcadia Discussion Zone

That's why i like this forum... we all study the same things but from different perspectives

I thought the Fleur de Lys would be easy but no

The three lions denote Normandy, England and Aquitaine. The semé-de-lis denotes France, which Edward III claimed in 1340 when he quartered France's arms with those of England.

TCP

I specifically said three lions looking backwards. The story is in Le Mort d'Arthur.



That would be Edward Planta genet I presume.

OK, well... not sure what, if anything, these could possibly have to do with heraldic marks of cadency, but I'm sure you must have an explanation.




Shouldn't come as any surprise in a town called Llíria, Sheila. I'd expect to see a lot of roses in a town called Roseville, too.

TCP

The three lions in the Plantagenet arms don't look backward. They're "passant guardant" and face the viewer. And those arms are far older than Mallory's novel.

Here, educate yourself for a change:

Armorial of Plantagenet



Indeed.

TCP

They are now. Who knows what adjustments are made for political purposes.

Indeed the Plantagenets are older than Mallory's novel but not older than Mallory's source. i.e. The Grail Legends.



So Fleur de Lys then?

A Flower of Lily. My point in the first place.

On Top of the Compass ROSE.



Drawn by Sanson, who knew Poussin

Do you think lightning placed them on the earth after the grail cycle came into vogue or something?

Yes, they are, in fact "older" than the grail myths. These stories (no, not "legends", but literary creations which took on the proportions of legend) came into vogue well after the Plantagenets came to power in their native Anjou, in Normandy, in Jerusalem, and finally in England.



Indeed. For France.

TCP

i think Lliria has got nothing to do with flowers.

It's original name wasn't Lliria was it, it Roman name was Edeta built on the tall mount of San Miguel btw ...and Lirio is a Lilly while Liria is a Lyre?

Hang on 'till i find a Spanish dictionary thing.

Erm! Nope.

The Grail myths and Arthurian legends predate Chretien de Troyes. That was when it was merely Christianised.



Anjou? As in Angevin? William the Bastard, Richard the Lionheart etc etc?

actually, i take that back, because obviously i need a Catalonian dictionary but i reckon the words are similar.

You'd probably do better with a lexicon for the Valencian dialect of Catalan.

The Roman name really isn't the issue, "Edeta" refers to the Edetani tribe of Ilercavones, as similarly the town of Lleida (or Lerida) most likely draws it's name from the Iberian Ilergates, their neighbors just to the north.

The "Iler" identifier in modern place names points to Iberian tribal origins rather than flowers, true. But whatever the historic derivation might have been, the modern names are associated homophonically with the word for lily, lirio.

TCP

Pre-Christian folk tales that have zero to do with the Plantagenets.



How laughable! Looks like you'll go straight to Nicole's naughty step for bringing up Hugh "God Kings of Europe" Montgomery and his made up "Order of the Fleur de Lys" (which was nothing but an old Carlist order that had fallen into disuse that Montgomery tried to co-opt for his own "illustrious" house, with himself as Grand Master, 'natch - plays well to his Serbian mafia financiers!).

Oh, by the way, Roscoe, William the Conqueror wasn't an Angevin. His granddaughter Mathilda married one, which is why her grandson Richard was an Angevin. You should step away from Hugh Mongomery's poorly conceived, poorly written twaddle and turn to more reliable sources once in a while. It might improve your public profile.

TCP

You're making this up as you go along.

Where did I say it did? The Grail stories predated everything you have come up with. Malory took his lead from that not some stolen Christian notion of what the Grail might be.



You dodged the whole bloody point AGAIN.

Fleur de Lys.

Flower of Lily = Planta Genet

And I brought up the Order of the Fleur de Lys because of the mention of Rene de Anjou. One of the Prieure de Sion Grand Masters we're told. You're very good at the ad hominum straw man aren't you? Not good on substance alas.

You'd have been good at the Little Big Horn. The point seems to always miss you.

You're so far up yourself you can't see beyond your nose.

No, but you are - and doing a pretty piss-poor job of it, as usual. At least you're consistent that way.



Who cares? Mallory wasn't writing about the Plantagenets! Doing your usual frantic dance, I see.



Wrong again, cretin! "Planta genêt" = planta genista = BROOM.



How typical of you not to be aware of the fact that René d'Anjou belonged to the second family to hold Anjou (Capet-Valois) after the Plantagenets lost it to France in 1214. Perhaps not surprising, as the "great historian" Hugh Montogomery doesn't seem to get it either. You two suit each other nicely.

Why do you even bother, Roscoe? Your grasp of history is non-existent and you always wind up looking like a complete moron.

TCP

Lliria....Fleur de Lys and the Lyre...sounds familiar to me.

How "lyric"...!

Here's a lovely painting showing King Felipe V of Spain (formerly Philippe de Bourbon, Duke of Anjou) bestowing the title Duque de Liria (con Grandeza de España) on James Fitz-James Stuart, 1st Duke of Berwick



His descendants still maintain the title.

TCP

no, i'm not being lyrical at all...death is the subject...but you'll just have to think it over and let's agree to go on our own musings rather than come to blows.

And I never said said he was. You're arguing with your own straw man.



So why the Fleur de Lys then. Why not the Broom plant? What does Planta genet actually mean? What does genet mean?



And how typical of me to notice that this is totally irrelevant. You've made a career out of being irrelevant.



Mostly to wind up idiots like you. I think that you have upset so many people on here that your statement may not be believed. You're on here daily and every time I bother to look at what you're saying you're trying to score points off someone. Sure sign of an inward inferiority complex.

You have a problem my friend.

He's so screwed up if we left him alone he'd argue with his own shadow.

I don't really have anything to think over, Sheila. Do you?

TCP

well i certainly need to think more on the subject because as far as i see it, those that journey to the underworld and back again are either described as sporting twin crests of fire, Geminae Cristae, double plumed or crested helmets ....or they carry a "lyre" with them.

When fact and logic fail him, that's the only way Roscoe can stay engaged in a conversation.

TCP

Roger. Why do you do this? Surely you must have realised by now that it is having no effect whatsoever. In fact can I just say that you wanting attack me all of the time I interpret as me having an effect on you. I chalk it up as me being effective. You sound more and more each day like Paul Smith and he never fazed me.

I just had a glittering career in computers and networking I retired very rich and very early. i effectively built the stuff you are now using. I could not have done this without thinking logically. How do you think I can spend all day on here?

What time do you go back to work Roger? You're a joke.

What a beautiful painting!