Arcadia Discussion Zone

Given that a "torre de guaita" or observation/watch tower built into the fortifications of a medieval city was intended to serve a security function, that much is self-evident. I would be interested in knowing where you learned this tower was built or intended to serve an astronomical function, as you seem quite certain of it and thus you must have found this information somewhere.



No, Girona doesn't lie on the coast, but what does that have to do with an observation tower?



How do you feel this is relevant?



It seems to me that the difference of opinion here is all about function. We can both see that it is a tower. All right, Jake, perhaps you can offer me the proof you have no doubt found (as you seem quite certain) that this tower was built as an astronomical observatory rather than as a fortified watch tower as its name implies. I am open to seeing what you've found that makes this irrefutable, as I would hate to think that you are making unfounded assumptions here.

TCP

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You seem to be under the impression that the photographer had some sort of advance idea or control over the precise pattern that would be produced in a time-delayed image. How would that be possible?



Why is that obvious?

So are you suggesting that if this was just a mundane, run-of-the-mill tower, the photographer wouldn't have bothered photographing the meteor shower from that location? It happens to be a fantastic photo of an astronomical event which would be no less fantastic had he photographed it in front of a tree, a windmill, or an outhouse - would you be so quick to assume that these, too, had historical significance relative to astronomy? Or that if the best vantage point was not a place with astronomical significance he might have skipped it?

I asked for proof that this particular tower was built as and functioned as an astronomical observatory in the 12th century. You're offering your assumptions based on your perception of why the photographer would have captured the meteor shower from that particular spot. I'd still like to see the evidence you've found that states categorically that this tower was built to serve as an astronomical observatory.

TCP

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The credentials of the photographer are not in question here, and are irrelevant to your assertion that this tower is a medieval astronomical observatory.



Highly unlikely that one would be able to speak to the 12th century "Jew" mystics of Girona - I asked you as you seemed rather sure of yourself. Which written form of Kabbalah might you be referring to? The Bahir? No, not written in Spain. Rabbi Isaac the Blind was based at Posquières in Provence. Certainly Nachmanides came from Girona and was a disciple of Isaac the Blind, but he was born just six years before the 12th century ended.



Most likely the civic government, as preserving city fortifications would have been their job.



Or perhaps the Nationalist forces were simply able to take the city without destroying it.

Thanks Jake, for demonstrating very ably that you have no actual source to back up your assertion that the tower in question was a medieval observatory. If you did, you would have provided it by now.

TCP[/quote]

Red with white polka dots I think.

This link again mentions Jose Torres. Who according to Patricia Chaplin is the grand-son of Sauniere. And is he also jewish??

A fantasist. nothing she writes can be trusted, most of it is fiction.

Not to mention that much of the "evidence" reproduced in her book is highly questionable. For instance, in chapter 22 Chaplin discusses a significant letter she found in 1968 (we know this because this "discovery" ends the chapter and she picks up "four years later" in 1972 at the beginning of chapter 23). A photo of the letter is reproduced on pages 135-136 of "City of Secrets". This letter is written on a piece of stationery from the Hotel Eden du Lac in Montreux, Switzerland - today called the Eden Palace du Lac. Three major problems with this letter: (a) there is a fax number printed at the bottom of the page and fax machines didn't exist in 1968; (b) the proprietor's name is also printed on the page, Mr. Carlo de Mercurio, and he didn't acquire the hotel until 1974; and (c) in 1968 this hotel was called the Grand Hotel Eden - the name wasn't changed to the Hotel Eden du Lac until 1980.

Given that Lynn Picknett was hired by Chaplin's publisher as a consultant on the book, should anyone be surprised by such sloppiness?

TCP

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Jake, might you be under the impression that "The Kabbalah" is the name of a single written work? It isn't. Kabbalah is a school of Jewish mysticism, of which many books were written over many years. So which, among the many Kabbalistic texts recorded over the centuries, was penned in Girona? Any idea?



How do you know it was built with funds from the residents, or that any of these - Jews or Christians - had any input whatsoever? What makes you think it was not the Cabrera lords or the town ballesteries who built this tower?



Not many conversos before 1391, and no formal Inquisition harrassing Jews before 1478. These would not have been factors of consideration in the 12th century when this tower was built.



I never said such a tower could not serve a dual capacity. I asked you to provide evidence to back up your determined assertion that this particular tower functioned as an astronomical observatory and was built with that purpose in mind. A very simple question which, despite your best efforts, you have answered. You have none, and this is, in fact, mere unfounded speculation on your part. My thinking may be limited to that which can be verified through actual provenance, but don't mistake me for being gullible.

TCP

Girona was on one of the pilgrimage routes, which all lead to Santiago de Compostela in Galicia in NW Spain, as shown on this map of the routes; http://www.csj.org.uk/map.htm That route also passes through Aix-en-Provence, where the Magdalene grotto is, and Toulouse near RLC. I don't know if that has any connection with the tower or Sauniere's interest in Girona but it may have been a contributing factor.

Doubtful that pilgrims traveling between Aix and Santiago de Compostela on the Via Tolosana would have detoured down to the Camino Catalán. It would have made the journey twice as long.

TCP

Maybe they wanted to take the scenic route.

Or stop off in Sitges to get color on their hides, then hit the Rioja bodegas on the way up. Why not? How often does one walk halfway across a continent and back? May as well make the most of it. Still, the Via Tolosana goes through the moutains and you just can't beat that kind of scenery.

TCP

Suppose you were starting from Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer near Arles. You would have two different pilgrimage routes available to you, one through Toulouse and one through Girona. You would alternate each year to avoid boredom.

Each year? From Arles to Santiago and back on foot, it would have taken the better part of a year to complete the route. This pilgrimage was a once-in-a-lifetime event, not something one did annually (how many plenary indulgences did one need?). One would think people would have chosen the most direct route there and back, would they not?

TCP

Disinformation from "esoteric sects" and "unrelated hermetic traditions"? How about plain old common sense? Put yourself in the position of a typical Santiago pilgrim of the medieval period. You've left your home, family, and livelihood behind to make a 3,200 km. round-trip trek on foot that has taken eight months from beginning to end. Is this something you're prepared to do annually, just so you can take another scenic route next time to avoid boredom? How much time for travel do you think most people had in that era? These people didn't take annual family vacations!

TCP

I meant to say you would take one route to Santiago and the other for the way back. Taking the shortest path was only for sissy pilgrims.

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Sorry Roger, I thought it was JB1717 who I was replying to. And yes, I'm fully aware of where the majority of the disinformation comes from. There seems to be an operative mindset out there that attributing anything to legend, myth or folklore somehow puts it off-limits from criticism.

TCP

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You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper, Jake. Do you always go to such Byzantine extremes to save yourself when you can't back up your definitive statements with anything of substance? I'm not the one trying to convince all and sundry that this tower was an astronomical observatory - you are. And yet you have nothing to back it up with. Simple question, no pertinent answers (valiant effort, cheers).

Better luck next time.

TCP

But it is myth we are dealing with here. We are trying to ascertain what it was that prompted people to give large amounts of money to Sauniere.

We are trying to figure out what they BELIEVED which of course may not necessarily be the truth.

If you want confirmation for everything then I can guarantee failure awaits you.

So who was it giving Sauniere money?

Those with Gnostic beliefs, those with esoteric beliefs or those who think Christ walked on water, turned water into wine and was born of a Virgin.

The latter is of course absolutely true as it comes under the widely accepted general ruling and is therefore carved in granite and therefore true. Unless you are one of those who think the children of Moses are Red Sea pedestrians or that Mohammad took a very fast bike ride to Jedda

So under what circumstances would you part with your hard earned cash and give it to a back-woods priest in the Languedoc?

Roscoe, perhaps you may trying to figure all this out, but I am not. I'm quite satisfied that this part of the "enigma" was uncovered long ago, and it had nothing to do with esotericism or Gnosticism, but good, old fashioned Catholic traditionalist/legitimist politics. It may not be what RLC enthusiasts want to hear, but to me it's the only explanation wherein all the pieces fit.

TCP