Arcadia Discussion Zone

I think it depends on which review you read though doesn't it?

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pr ... 7_0000_002

would you call this kind of post a sensible argument???
critique it is not......it is blatently taking the piss no matter how much you try to disguise it and its very childish behaviour

My money is on Ian Wood, whose work on the Merovingian period is not only seminal, but quite up-to-date.



Perhaps you could point me to the reference? Or rather, the inference? Although Steve and I are fellow travelers of long duration in this genre, he makes his living as an academic while I do not. Ergo any reference I might have made to him as a "colleague" should not be taken to mean in a professional sense.

TCP

tingara, the version of events written by people "that were there at the time" is not a reliable basis for understanding history. If you that is the basis of your understanding of history, then you are doomed to fall into grave error.

OFFS

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pr ... 7_0000_002

och, stop sniping at each other you lot..honestly!

For those that haven't ....read the post & then comment anew.

Pilier des Nautes ......Pillar of the Boatmen
This is now in the Cluny museum in Paris and is a lot smaller then i imagined it to be......well worth a visit

Hello,
Just a thought, but..............
Are there any parallels in paying for a 'ritual' at death and paying the Ferryman Charon to help in the passage across the river Styx?
Sheila, in answer to your question the other day about what was put in the mouth, was it, symbolically a payment?
Any thoughts or should I just concentrate on this very presentable Julienas instead ?
TD

You are a very lucky man Thomas..you just enjoy it...we'll catch up with you later 'cos i don't know the answers to the questions just yet.

Guess what Seeker, ya can quit seekin' and just go to these links which tell ya everything ya need to know 'boot the Christa. I can't vouch for anything the site claims, but the person who's website it is, can do that for ya, its her bag.

http://healingpartnershipsllc.com/julia_s_blog
http://healingpartnershipsllc.com/about_julia
http://healingpartnershipsllc.com/christa__energy_intro
http://healingpartnershipsllc.com/energy_attunements
http://healingpartnershipsllc.com/anamata_energy
http://www.youngliving.com/en_US/index.html
http://www.transformationalpresence.org/main.html

Caveat emptor, y'awl. BTW, if ya think just a lil' bit, not a whole lot, just a lil' bit, ya can see where all this is leading to, or at least i hope yer all not that blind. Just like in the case of the efficacy of the use of Lourdes' miraculous cures healing water, it all boils down to the degree of faith ya have in Jesus, and at Lourdes, it only helps if yer a Catholic.

The artifacts in question here are useful only to a cleric who's heart + soul are attuned to what Jesus expects from a devout believer. If a non-believer gets hold of any of these sought after artifacts they won't yield any positive benefits, its that clear cut. If ya ever do manage to find the cup-grail Jesus used at the Last Supper, what 'supernatural powers' do ya think Jesus will grant to its finder? Look what the spear of destiny did for Hitler's cronies. So much for possession of supernatural power.

The idea that the cup-Grail gives its possessor some earthly or spiritual advantages is a really lame, NO-brainer folks. It has value only to a devout, dedicated believing cleric I can't imagine Sauniere was at the end of his career as a priest. Its obvious to me he made a pact with the devil and sold his soul to satan. He has to pay for that choice for eternity.

Veneration of sacred relics in the Church tradition only has effect when the truly contrite penitent requests the original owner of that relic to intercede on their behalf, so that the penitent can come closer to Jesus. The Saint don't do the healing, only Jesus does. The role of the Saintly intercession is to foster a sense of humility to a penitent they are worthy 'nuff to request a saving Grace from Jesus. Just glibly asking for favors from Jesus is sacrilege at its blasphemous worst.

If ya recall superstitious plundering non-believers who consumes all the Hosts in a Tabernacle in some mis-guided belief by virtue of consuming those hosts, they will be as powerful as Jesus. This is 'zakly the same mis-guided stupid reasoning attached to attaining possession of any artifact that has relevance to Jesus. Heathen-pagans who desecrate Churches in the delusional belief they are destroying Jesus, 'cuz they destroy a Church, operate with the same retarded mentality.

Assuming Jesus will do whatever a possessor of a sacred artifact is beyond hubris, its an act of a truly deranged mind. I was wondering some where along the line when this realization was ever gonna surface. Just discussing this how many angels can squat on the tip of a needle as is goin' on here, truly baffles me. Roger + Tingra say they know the deal 'boot the Christa, but then what?

How does that constitute power, symbolic or whatever? If either of them laid their hands on whatever it is, what will happen? Surely they know, 'cuz that's what they intimate, yes? Does the Gulfstream change its course?, do we go in to a new ice age?, is there gonna be a polar shift? will an asteroid hit the Atlantic and wipe out this side of the planet? It may sound a bit facetious, but those types of events are gonna happen prior to Armageddon anyway, so will Roger or Tingra help speed up that process by touching the Christa?

One thing for sure, they gotta do 1st, that is to build a 3rd Temple on Temple Mount and initiate the blood sacrifice offerings of olde. Once that happens the rest of the events of the Apocalypse will occur. So, my point is, do they really wanna jump start that whole process? Like they say on the block in da 'hood, why, just knock yerself out dude...

Glad to see the RlC-Masters forum is back up -- I guess this is another case where to get answers one goes to the source.

http://rennes-le-chateau-masters.com/fo ... =#entry442

SHEILA: Yes Tina and even more so;

The Ankh figure first began as an image of the "Sun on it's Horizon", exactly the same expression used to describe the object given to Constantine at the Lendit Sanctuary.

The Ankh was believed to "resurrect the dead by emanating so much power that anyone in close proximity to it would feel a surge of power."

It is considered the key to eternal life after death.

The Ankh is seen depicted being used both ways up just like the crista.

[snip]

ROGER: Hmm... sounds like a powerful sales tool for "mass trafficking", doesn't it?

http://rennes-le-chateau-masters.com/fo ... t=#entry66

ISAAC: As of now, we have been able to establish strong historical connections between the Toledo Cross and the Crista. We know that the Toledo Cross is the object represented on the Merovingian coins, and that Childebert had the first coins of this type stamped, in Arles, upon his return from Toledo.

Let me explain: the Croix-de-Camargue looks very similar to an anchor.

This does NOT mean that the Croix-de-Camargue doesn't derive from the Crista and the Tau.

Indeed, originally the Tau used to be shaped like an anchor.

And it is also said that the Crista depicted on Merovingian coins was shaped like an achor as well.

On the other hand, the Crista has a quite unique shape, a shape of its own:

the two curled branches which fall back downwards on both sides of the Crista are clearly the symbol's main characteristics, since they surround the Crista almost entirely, and take up considerable space.

Inside the dome of Notre-Dame de la Garde (Our Lady of the Guard), the angels are the ones who carry this very peculiar "cross".

Two things have yet to be said:

- This church was built in neo-Byzantine architectural style,
- The church itself was built during the XIX th century, at a time when there was a whole club of priests searching for the Crista.

One has to know that, as I said earlier, the Crista is an object that is always meant to be placed at or on the top of something:

- on top of Constantine's war helmet,
- on top of Saint Eloi's mausoleum (tomb).

Now, the cross that is represented inside Notre-Dame de la Garde is exactly ON TOP of the church, at the culminating point of the dome.
So, since the word CRISTA is used to designate a PAX symbol ON TOP OF something, in a literal sense (the word "crista" also means "summit", "top", and "crest" in Latin), the most peculiar "cross" that is present at the top of Notre-Dame de la Garde's dome is a Crista.

[snip]

You recall well about the design in Saunière's church, because there is indeed a representation of the Crista in the Rennes-le-Château church, and it is actually the same symbol that is also depicted in the "Le Serpent Rouge" booklet. But obviously, a picture of would be more evocative.

[snip]

"""[*]Are you saying that the cross that was plundered by the Visigoths from Rome and taken to Toledo that was then plundered by Childebert and taken back to Paris is the same cross that was allegedly made for Solomen???"""

That is precisely what I am saying, and you understood my reasoning perfectly. We have very strong and clear historical evidence pertaining to the Crista object's entire travel across various countries as time passes by.

That cross-like object is called "Crista" "Cross of Toledo", "Holy Cross", or "Serpent Rouge" ("Red Serpent").

Some Christian theologians, in Constantine's time, saw the Crista as if it were composed of two serpents with their heads and necks rolled around a vertical stick. So from that they thought that it looked vaguely like Moses' staff.

They also confused the Crista with the two fire crests that Moses wears above his head.

Those Christian theologians were led to make all these unfounded assumptions, because the Crista was found in Toledo, i.e at that time the Wisigoths' capital, which was famous for being the place where they had brought with them the splendid treasures looted from their invasion of Rome many years earlier, i.e the Sack of Rome. Hence the connection they made to the treasure of Solomon, which was supposed to have been brought there along with Rome's many other ancient treasures. So they erroneously thought: perhaps this "Crista" comes from the treasure of Solomon?

[snip]

Regarding your second question:
"""[*]That this is the same pagan object/cross that Constantine acquired in Gaul at perhaps a temple of Apollo and could have placed on top of his helmet as a crest???"""

Tina, you just are spot-on again here, the Crista is indeed the object that was found by Constantine in the temple of Apollo in Gaul, i.e at the "Champ du Lendit" (Lendit Field), near the town of Saint-Denis, amid the plains surrounding nowadays Paris.

The object Constantine wore on the top (i.e the crest) of his helmet was obviously smaller than the genuine Crista object he found in the sanctuary of the Lendit, but still large enough to be visible and attract attention.
At that time (the IV th century), the crest decorations that were customary were sometimes very large compared with today's headcovering standards, especially for the most high-ranking person in the empire.
We are talking about a Crista-like crest decoration for Constantine's helmet, that would be approximately as tall as the length of two hands, without counting the height of the helmet itself, of course. That is quite big for a helmet ornament.

Now, what will be most attractive to nowadays' treasure hunters, is the fact that the Crista was accompanied with many solid gold objects, such as golden chalices incrusted with precious jewel stones, golden plates, golden shields, various other jewels, and other treasures.

The full inventory of the huge treasure that was found along with the Crista can be seen in the descriptions made by historians of Childeric and Childebert's possessions, because they were the ones who took these treasures as their own.

Furthermore, we do have proof that this Crista was indeed the same Crista that was discovered by Saunière in his Rennes-le-Château church.

I am sending you, embedded within this message, a picture of the Crista Saunière found in his church.

This representation was painted there on the recommendations of Saunière himself, it is an integral part of the church's decoration which he had entirely re-designed. He was just describing his discovery here!



Here is a picture of the Crista fresco's immediate surroundings (sorry for bad picture quality).

Here are the English translations for the captions I wrote inside that picture:



Reading from top to bottom:

First caption: "There is a fleur-de-lys heraldic symbol right on top of the Crista fresco"

Second caption: "Concerning the outer right edge of the Crista fresco, it was designed to look just like a serpent's body, covered in scales. Notice it is literally zigzagging, curled around the fleur-de-lys as well."

Third caption (in the lower left part of the picture): "Concerning the outer left edge of the Crista fresco, we can see that it was also meant to represent the body of a serpent, and that this second serpent's body is also zigzagging, and it is interlaced around, or interwoven with, the first serpent's body."
Not coincidentally at all, that kind of feature is also stronly reminiscent of a caduceus. Two serpents facing each other, with their bodies zigzagging around... something. The symbolic connection between the Crista, the caduceus (and also the fleur-de-lys) is what Saunière had in mind when he designed that fresco.

Fourth caption (in the lower right part of the picture): "Here is the object that is to be found. CRISTA. It is actually a type of TAU which has been compared by theologians to the red serpent of Moses" (i.e. in Biblical symbolism, Moses' staff, which, once changed into a serpent, devoured the two serpents unleashed by Pharaoh's magicians).

[snip]

From LSR


From Sauniere's church


You seem to be doubtful about the necessity of surrounding the Crista with a high level of secrecy. That is because you are underestimating the power of this object.

Upon this Crista object or "talisman", was founded Emperor Constantine's entire power, and also the Catholic Church's power, afterwards.

This Crista talisman also contributed a great deal to the Merovingian dynasty's prosperity and might in Europe.

It enabled Charlemagne's dynasty, the Carolingians, to become an emperors as well, just like it had done for Constantine.

This Crista talisman is said to be imbued with huge magical powers, among which, notably the power to resurrect the dead.

According to the tradition of the French royalists, the Crista will be the sign by which the Great Monarch will be recognized as such.

And furthermore, this talisman would be accompanied with an enormous fortune, a treasure of gold and jewels.

Just imagine: the sanctuaries of Saint-Germain-des-Prés and Saint-Denis were originally built specifically for the sole purpose of harboring and hiding the Crista talisman from the rest of the world!

These two churches are the tangible symbols of the French monarchy's might and power.

Look at the huge loads of money that have been spent just for protecting the Crista. That kind of money did not just get thrown out of the windows for no reason, especially not in old times.

[snip]

There are historical and scientific evidence with regard to:

- the Cult of the Dead,
- Bérenger Saunière's penitent friends, and notably among the members of the "Sanch" confraternity,
- the Cult of the Dead specifically in Rennes-le-Château,
- and about Bérenger Saunière's reaction immediately after he discovered the Crista, which was one of undiluted joy. To put it in a nutshell, he had just found what he was looking for.

I have two big files full of substantial evidence on these topics...

Do you know that there are well-known historians who wrote descriptions of the Crista in their books?

When you enter the church of Rennes-le-Château, you can see near the entrance the statue of the devil Asmodeus carrying a stoup.

On top of it, one can read the following inscription: "PAR CE SIGNE TU LE VAINCRAS", which means in English: BY THIS SIGN YOU WILL OVERCOME HIM". This is a re-use of Constantine's motto, IN HOC SIGNO VINCES ("By this sign you will overcome"), which is itself related to the Crista.

Now, on top of the stoup, there are statues of four angels, who are making gestures with their hands. Their gestures, when combined, form the sign which the inscription refers to.

No convoluted interpretation is needed here, since the symbolism is quite straightforward. The "In Hoc Signo Vinces" IS Constantine's Crista.

It also designates the same Crista symbol which is printed on the first page of the "Le Serpent Rouge" booklet.

And this very same symbol can be found, in turn, in several places inside the Rennes-le-Château church, whether painted or sculpted.

We are the only researchers who have managed to find out about the existence and meaning of this object, which was Saunière's real treasure, and the source of his wealth.

[snip]

http://rennes-le-chateau-masters.com/fo ... =#entry286

ROGER: The crista in Sauniere's church does indeed exactly fit the later evolution of crista representation. You simply haven't continued following it through time. In fact, it had already evolved to this form BEFORE the foundation of the Servites. So, if anything, the Servite sigil would derive from the crista rather than the other way around, albeit I don't believe that to be the case, they are simply similar due to the sigil using uncial M and S, easily confused with the crista symbolism, which doesn't actually use letters at all. I find it interesting that most can't quite readily see the fundamental differences in the two symbols.

[snip]

This addition is my own.



Fr. Vidal Martinez, O.S.M. National Assistant to the Secular and Lay Associations of the U.S.A. Province of the Servite Order has offered a terrific explanation of the symbolism of the scapular:

The Back
"S"- Servants
"M"- Mary
The emblem is adorned by a crown honoring Mary.

http://rennes-le-chateau-masters.com/fo ... =#entry165

ISAAC (translated): """Several things can explain the (faulty) connection that was made between the Crista and the staff of Moses, things which, at the same time, allow one to clearly differentiate the two of them.

As you have surely noticed, the "Le Serpent Rouge" manuscript published by the Priory of Sion is indeed named "The Red Serpent", and additionally it shows a picture of the Crista on its very front page, with a "PS" inscription inside the medallion, and this P and this S also are, generally speaking, a symbolic equivalent of the Crista, and the PAX.
Especially when these two letters are shown interwoven, think of the P's "mast" as a kind of vertical pole, and of the "S" as a figure of a snake rolled around that pole or "pillar", and you will get what I mean.

Now, why did the Crista get all assimilated and confused with the Staff of Moses, also known theologically as "Brass Serpent" (or "Red Serpent")?

When Childebert found that treasure in Toledo, according to the historians, there did not just found the Crista among the riches, but also golden vases from the temple of Solomon. That may have led to a confusion between these golden vases and the Crista, and consequently Childebert and his troops may have thought that the Crista was a Jewish object as well, a sort of "piece" from the Staff of Moses.

However, I disagree with the above, and my opinion is that even BEFORE Childebert's conquest of Toledo, the Crista was already associated with the Staff of Moses.

Indeed, as was stated in the forum of Andy Gough's website, there are some ancient coins dating as far back as the time of Herod of Great's reign, and which provide us with a very simple explanation to this confusion that was made between the Crista and the staff of Moses:

There used to be, in Assyrian-Chaldean civilizations, a very important worship and devotion to the symbol of the TAU, i.e the PAX. This Tau has been represented by several variants through different epochs, but broadly speaking, the following points can be emphasized:

A long, long time before Christ was born, the Tau was represented either by the "Ankh" cross (also known as the "ansate cross"), or with the Caduceus, composed with a staff around which TWO opposed and irreconcileable serpents are wrapped.

This Tau object is the symbol of non-conciliated duality, of dualism, and of the opposition between God and humanity, between eternity and mortal life here on earth.

This Tau means: death and re-birth, NOT resurrection in heaven, but reincarnation on earth.
It is a figure of the cycle of the seasons, of nature's death and subsequent germination.
This Tau is saying: "from dust you are made, into dust you shall return."

The same thing which was at the beginning (i.e. dust) will be there at the end, the Tau thus only means "death" eventually, when you think about it. No escape from the mortal life, pain, sorrows, which are our lot down here.
The irreconcileable duality, and its symbol the Tau, is the governing principle of mortal life here on earth, from birth to death.

Such is the basic philosophy (and theology) behind the Tau. The Assyrians and Chaldeans can claim credit for this wonderful - and most of all, optimistic - contribution to the world...

Now, with regard to these ancient coins from the time of Herod the Great, quite remarkably, some of theme are stamped with a caduceus beside a PAX symbol, and on others a Crested Helmet is depicted as well (crested with a double-crest, which is also a type of Crista).
All of these symbols are equivalent, they have exactly the same meaning.

Quite obviously, as soon as in Herod's time, the helmet on top of which was affixed a Crista was regarded as a symbol of might and of power over life and death.

At this point, we're going to have to remember that the helmet with a Crista affixed on top is often replaced, on coins of that particular epoch, with a version of the helmet which features a Caduceus on top instead.

The Caduceus is basically a staff around which are placed two opposing serpents, facing each other. And the Crista also features two curled extremities which are affixed to the top of the object, and then fall back downwards toward the base. The Caduceus and the Crista have a similar "shape", in the sense of composition.

But, in a Christian world dominated by orthodoxy, such as was the world in Constantine's time, no one would have understood for Constantine to place a caduceus atop his helmet, and to show everybody the Crista as the scepter of his supreme power, i.e. the Pagan symbol of victory over death!

The theologians thus quite naturally made the assimilation between the Crista and the Staff of Moses. The Crista, which is indeed a kind of Caduceus (with TWO serpents), was therefore presented in a "watered-down" version, i.e. AS IF it was the Staff of Moses, which is composed of one staff plus ONE serpent around it. Crafty stratagem, eh?

One has to be extremely cautious with symbols, most of all with those often assumed to be "equivalent" just for the sake of their being "lookalike", because it turns out that such symbols usually have differing, even opposed, religious meanings.

As an example, just remember that episode in the Bible where Moses, standing before Pharaoh's throne, threw his staff on the floor, and his staff became a serpent.

Not impressed, Pharaoh had two of his magicians throw their staffs on the floor, and these Magi's staffs became two serpents, i.e. they symbolize a Caduceus, or a Crista.

But, the unique serpent of Moses ate Pharaoh's two serpents.

An cross-shaped objects featuring TWO curled serpents around it (i.e the Crista), is definitely unlike a cross with only ONE serpent around it (i.e. the Staff of Moses).

And yet, this is what many would have us believe!

To the historians, the symbol of Constantine has thus managed to become the symbol of Christianity itself, in spite of its NOT being a real cross, nor even a Christian object!

And since the theologians of Constantine's time could not credibly say: "Here is the Crista, look at it, is is a cross!",
consequently they said: "Here is the Crista, it is the symbol of the Red Serpent of Moses!"

They described the Crista in that manner, because it was easier to account for the shape of that object using that particular interpretation."

[snip]

Childebert knew that he had found THE Crista. This is now a certainty. Upon his return from Toledo, he indeed created in the town of Arles, i.e. in the South of France, a kind of "mint workshop" for the sole purpose of producing "Crista coins".
Numismatists (i.e. coin collectors) say with regard to it that this is how (and where) the very first coins stamped with the Crista came into being.

So, Childbert was definitely able to identify the object. But as to how, and why? A scientific-minded researcher cannot state as certain things he does not know. Therefore, I content myself with telling what I do know, and with not trying to give my opinion on an unsourced matter.

Besides, maybe Childebert simply went to Toledo in order to recuperate that Crista... however, as of now nobody can be sure of this.

With regard to Constantine: Constantine was not the one who created the Crista. He merely found it, as the chroniclers of that time say.

He discovered this solar symbol at the Lendit Field, put it on his head, and generously provided great amounts of gold and many other riches to the priests of the Lendit Temple, to thank them for this "gift".

However, it is very important to be able to properly differentiate between Constantine's Crista, and the Crista of Herod the Great. Herod indeed wore A Crista on his war helmet, but not THE Crista.

I can state this because I found as a reference the account given by a famous XVII th century historian, who gave a definition of the Crista. It says that during the XII th century, the Crista object was affixed on top of Saint Denis' mausoleum, inside the abbey of Saint Denis, near Paris. Now, this Saint Denis Mausoleum was originally built by Saint Eloi.
This historian also says that only a precious few, very rare, objects can bear the same name as this "Crista of Saint Denis". He says that the (Latin) name of this CRISTA means CREST, and that such a name ALWAYS designates an object affixed ON TOP OF something.

Therefore the Crista affixed on top of Herod's helmet is a Crista, but not THE Crista.

It also means something else:

There used to be, in the Orient (in the East), a very old tradition according to which an object placed on top of a war helmet was deemed to have magical powers. It also explains why Constantine, when he saw the Crista of the Lendit for the first time, immediately identified it as such.

This Crista of the Lendit seems to be the most beautiful Crista of all time. I don't know the precise origins of this object with any kind of certainty, but That particular Crista is of utmost importance, even more so, in fact, that Pharaoh's two serpents.

It seems that the Lendit Crista was the Master-Tau, a very ancient object that could be easily identified, even in the East, and which was regarded as sacred and held in veneration by several peoples around the world, in the West and in the East alike.

You should look towards Saint Denis (Sanctus Dionysius) and the abbey of Saint-Denis. There are other details about the Crista we have not mentioned.

This post claims these are images of the crista found in Rome.

http://rennes-le-chateau-masters.com/fo ... =#entry229



Note the crown with 7 lillies on top of the interweaved S and M there.

http://www.servitehs.org/apps/pages/ind ... hideMenu=1

The Crest

The crest of Servite High School reaches back more than 750 years to the earliest days of the Servite Order in Florence, Italy. The crest is a black shield outlined in gold, with the letters “S” and “M” superimposed. Atop the shield lies a gold crown with seven points.

The letters “S” and “M” stand for “Order of Servants of Mary” (Servites) referring to the Order of priests and brothers who own Servite High School, and the world-wide community of Servites that also includes sisters and lay-people.

The crown represents Mary’s crowning as the Queen of Heaven. It has seven points representing the Seven Holy Founders of the Servite Order who were canonized as a group as saints by the Church in the 1800’s.

The formal version of the crest places the shield atop the cross, recognizing the school’s commitment to Christ, the cross and the Church.

When we look at the crests of the Servite Order and specific Servite communities, we can see the traditions and themes that link all of us together throughout the world and through almost 800 years of history.

The first Servite monastery was built in 1245 on top of a 2500ft mountain about 15 miles northwest of Florence, Italy. Known as “Monte Senario”, the monastery still uses the crest consisting of a cross atop a mountain of six boulders with the letter “S” mounted on the cross. The “S” stands for “Servants” as the Servites are known in Italy.

When the Servites returned to Florence later in the 13th century, they built a church (now a basilica), Annunziata, several blocks from the Duomo (cathedral) in downtown Florence. The crest for the Annunziata community consists of an ornate gold “S” atop a royal blue background. The lilies growing up through the “S” represent Mary who, as the stem of the lily, gives life to the flowering blossom, Christ.

As time went on, the Servites elongated the flowering lily and drew them around and down on both sides, forming a “M” for ‘Mary’. The crown symbolizes Mary as the Queen of Heaven and the seven points represent the Seven Holy Founders of the Order. This crest, or variations of it, are commonly used by Servite communities around the world include Servite College (high school) in Perth, Australia, and Marian High School in Omaha, Nebraska.

[snip]

Well that was a pretty thorough "cut n' paste" job....i'm assuming there'll be more to come before you deplete one forum & transpose it to another!

By the way Seeker, who is your transposed information aimed at...is there an invisible audience i'm not aware of?......to my mind most people here on Arcadia regularly visit & participate in RLC Masters anyway.

Seeker ...And if you are going to lift information from one website & quote it on another please do it properly..you said;



which is in fact miss-quoted...the original post by Corjan says.......which means a compilation of images from Rome in the 'Crista' style.

I see. So images of the Servite Order of Mary are in "crista style".

I know people participate in both forums. Not everyone does.

It seems a bit strange that at one forum (this one), they say the crista has nothing to do with the cult of the dead or raising the dead.

And then BTW at the other forum, they say it does.

What was someone saying about intellectual dishonesty?

BTW, I think I discovered there another source of "The Rise" since jakey-boy keeps asking.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/sect56.htm

In the above remarks I have gone on the supposition that Constantine acted in good faith as a Christian. His good faith, however, has been questioned; and I am not without my suspicions that the X may have been intended to have one meaning to the Christians and another to the Pagans. It is certain that the X was the symbol of the god Ham in Egypt, and as such was exhibited on the breast of his image. Whichever view be taken, however, of Constantine's sincerity, the supposed Divine warrant for reverencing the sign of the cross entirely falls to the ground. In regard to the X, there is no doubt that, by the Christians who knew nothing of secret plots or devices, it was generally taken, as Lactantius declares, as equivalent to the name of "Christ." In this view, therefore, it had no very great attractions for the Pagans, who, even in worshipping Horus, had always been accustomed to make use of the mystic tau or cross, as the "sign of life," or the magical charm that secured all that was good, and warded off everything that was evil. When, therefore, multitudes of the Pagans, on the conversion of Constantine, flocked into the Church, like the semi-Pagans of Egypt, they brought along with them their predilection for the old symbol. The consequence was, that in no great length of time, as apostacy proceeded, the X which in itself was not an unnatural symbol of Christ, the true Messiah, and which had once been regarded as such, was allowed to go entirely into disuse, and the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah, was everywhere substituted in its stead. Thus, by the "sign of the cross," Christ has been crucified anew by those who profess to be His disciples. Now, if these things be matter of historic fact, who can wonder that, in the Romish Church, "the sign of the cross" has always and everywhere been seen to be such an instrument of rank superstition and delusion?

[snip]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons

The Two Babylons was an anti-Catholic religious pamphlet produced initially by the Scottish theologian and Presbyterian Alexander Hislop in 1853. It was later expanded in 1858 and finally published as a book in 1919. Its central theme is its allegation that the Catholic Church is a veiled continuation of the pagan religion of Babylon, the veiled paganism being the product of a millennia old conspiracy.[1] [2] It has been recognized by scholars as discredited and has been called a "tribute to historical inaccuracy and know-nothing religious bigotry" with "shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty" and a "nonsensical thesis".[3][4]

Although scholarship has shown the picture presented by Hislop to be absurd and based on an exceedingly poor understanding of historical Babylon and its religion, his book remains popular among some fundamentalist Christians.[5]

The book's thesis has also featured prominently in the conspiracy theories of racist groups such as The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord[6] and other conspiracy theorists

[snip]

http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/cross.html

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross "this Pagan symbol...the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah...the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians--the true original form of the letter T--the initial of the name of Tammus...the Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz.

[snip]

A well-known encyclopedia describes the Labarum (Chi-Rho) as, "The labarum was also an emblem of the Chaldean (Babylonian) sky-god and in Christianity it was adopted..." Emperor Constantine adopted this Labarum as the imperial ensign and thereby succeeded in "uniting both divisions of his troops, pagans and Christians, in a common worship...

[snip]

There are a number of interesting things I could point to about the so-called history of these pagan origins. The sad truth is that most “pagan origin” claims come from the work of an Alexander Hislop. For those who have taken the time to check out Hislop, they will discover that his research on the pagan origins is often contradictory. Read what “The Saturday Review” dated September 17, 1859, p. 340. had to say about Hislop’s work:

In the first place, his whole superstructure is raised upon nothing. Our earliest authority for the history of Semiramis wrote about the commencement of the Christian era, and the historian from whom he drew his information lived from fifteen hundred to two thousand years after the date which Mr. Hislop assigns to the great Assyrian Queen. The most lying legend which the Vatican has ever endorsed stands on better authority than the history which is now made the ground of a charge against it.

Secondly, the whole argument proceeds upon the assumption that all heathenism has a common origin. Accidental resemblances in mythological details are taken as evidence of this, and nothing is allowed for the natural working of the human mind.

Thirdly, Mr. Hislop’s method of reasoning would make anything of anything. By the aid of obscure passages in third-rate historians, groundless assumptions of identity, and etymological torturing of roots, all that we know, and all that we believe, may be converted…into something totally different.

Fourthly, Mr. Hislop’s argument proves too much. He finds not only the corruptions of Popery, but the fundamental articles of the Christian Faith, in his hypothetical Babylonian system…

We take leave of Mr. Hislop and his work with the remark that we never before quite knew the folly of which ignorant or half-learned bigotry is capable.

[snip]

would it not have been easier to just put the link to the masters here
although most of its on the chi rho thread anyway

seeker said.....
It seems a bit strange that at one forum (this one), they say the crista has nothing to do with the cult of the dead or raising the dead.

i said that and that is my opinion.....it does not make me dishonest as you put it.
I dont believe anything could raise the dead.
Not everyone agrees with everyone else in that assesment Seeker, we all have opinions based on our own research and studies but that doesnt mean that we dont agree on the principal ideas.

The threads there are long, just like they are here. Personally, it strikes me that the main person over there who seems to know, or claims to know, what the crista is, is Isaac Ben Jacob whoever he/they is/are, so I focused on reposting their statements. Obviously not everyone was here for the Chi Rho thread, either, or is willing to do what I did, and go back through all 47 pages -- I think the above is a good summary of IBJ's position. Clearly not everyone seems to know it, not even everyone at the RlC-masters forum.

I think the issue of the resemblance between what is called by many "the crista" and the Seal of the Servites of Mary deserves more discussion.

The main issue I'm curious about right now is why it seems so much of the Rise is based on the "work" of Alexander Hislop.

The main issue I'm curious about right now is why it seems so much of the Rise is based on the "work" of Alexander Hislop.

That statement is rediculous and you know it
the main issue you are really curious about is does it really exist, where is it now and how it fits in with the necropolis at RLC.

Alexander Hislop did make many mistakes but he does make a lot of sense regarding the catholic church origins......

He contended that Roman Catholic religious practices are actually pagan practices grafted onto true Christianity during the reign of Constantine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hislop

yesssss ....my sentiments exactly.....its all bollocks

Seeker1 wrote:

The main issue I'm curious about right now is why it seems so much of the Rise is based on the "work" of Alexander Hislop.

Hello Seeker,
Thats a provocative statement ! A real blast from the past.
Just to clarify, before we all scurry off to consider it, have you remained in the realms of hyperbole, for comic effect, or simply to antagonise the proponents of the Rise ?

If its meant as a serious contribution to the dialectic then which particular themes from 'The Two Babylons' are you referring to?

Or, perish the thought, was it just a languid, Sunday afternoon fishing trip to see who will bite?
Kind regards,
TD